.40 S&W

[buckey]

Can't help but notice that all the cheap .40S&Ws plus ammo are long gone at the old gun shop is the death of the .40 maybe a bit exaggerated?

[bamaranger]

Everything that shoots is selling these days, what with election year and the COVID crisis (I've named it the Chi-Com flu). Forty is not near as popular as it once was, but is still a good cartridge and will out last all of us. I see it at it's best as a pure SD cartridge.

The 9mm will always have a place due to its military heritage, renewed LE interest, and its ease of shooting and affordability has won the hearts of the competitors in the combat/practical shooting sports. Big bore fans still have the .45 acp and all the tradition connected with same. But the .40's sole purpose (to me anyhow) is as a SD/LE cartridge.

[amd6547]

I don’t agree that .40 is just a SD/LE round.
The 9mm has been my choice for a SD pistol since before there was a .40. Not much interest in switching.
But the cheap police surplus pistols are hard to ignore.
I bought a Gen4 G22 police surplus pistol and, at the price of the pistol, and with the right choice of ammo, it makes a fine woods pistol.
Not too heavy to carry, and enough wallop to handle everything from 2-legged varmints to black bear.
I really think the cheap police surplus guns may lead to a resurgence of the .40 amongst civilians.

[Nathan]

It is over exaggerated. It is the best round you can get in a full size 9mm frame size. Where it lacks is when you put it in a smaller gun or give it to a weaker shooter.

[buckey]

Very well put Boy's! I tend to agree on all points.

[lee n. field]

Originally Posted by buckey

Can't help but notice that all the cheap .40S&Ws plus ammo are long gone at the old gun shop is the death of the .40 maybe a bit exaggerated?

These are weird times. I wouldn't put much weight on what you see right now, in judging the viability or not of .40 S&W.

[jmr40]

40 S&W is being phased out by law enforcement in favor of 9mm. Most departments buy new guns every 10-15 years and every single one in the last 5 years or so that I'm aware of has gone with 9mm. Some already had 9mm, but the ones that had been issuing 40 went to 9mm. And that trend will continue. In another 10 years it will be pretty rare for a LE agency to issue 40 S&W.

But all of those used 40 S&W pistols had to go somewhere, and they were snapped up cheap on the used market. There are still just as many pistols in 40 caliber as ever, it's just a difference in who now owns them. I don't think it will be long before new pistols chambered in 40 S&W will be uncommon. But with the number out there I don't see any chance for a shortage of ammo anytime in my lifetime, or even my kids lifetime.

[Ruger45LC]

The .40 may have shrunk in popularity among some in the LEO circles but it's still very popular and will be around for a very long time, I mean you can still get oddball calibers that really are nearly dead and the .40 isn't one of those by a wide margin. I'm a big .40 fan, I have three and the .40 has long been a favorite of mine.

[Forte S+W]

It seems as though all of the Police trade-ins flooding the market at insanely low prices had the following effects.

• Folks bought cheap .40s.
• Took cheap .40s to the range and enjoyed shooting them.
• Bought more ammo to shoot more.
• COVID-19 happened and folks started panic-buying guns and ammo, especially cheap guns like .40cal Police trade-ins, exhausting the supply.

Now there are a lot more people who own a .40 than ever before, most of whom will wish to continue shooting them once they can get out to the range, demand for ammo will ensure that it stays in production, and it's very likely that word of mouth will spread that .40 S&W is not in fact; "Too sthnappy" when fired from full-size duty pistols, especially all-metal ones, and offers better ballistic performance than 9mm.

Reports of its death were already greatly exaggerated and based on the demonstrably false logic that all cartridges which fall out of favor with Law Enforcement will die because apparently every shooter is a sheep who follows the lead of LE, and therefore just sells their guns the moment LE adopts something new. You know, like how .45 Long Colt, .45 ACP, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, 9mm Luger, and 10mm Auto all died when police stopped carrying them at different times.

[COSteve]

I handload so actually have no use for a 9mm except for a collector WWII numbers matching, Nazi marked, excellent condition German Luger. I prefer a 40s&w because 'bigger is better' for me and the cost difference between handloading for the two is negligible so why bother with the 9mm. I also like my 45acp and 10mm better still than the 9mm but both have a bigger frame.

In addition, the oft quoted, "the 40s&w is a high pressure rd and is more snappy", is a load of ***p. Both the 9mm and 40s&w are 35,000psi cartridges per SAAMI spec and a 9mm+P's SAAMI spec is 38,500psi cartridge which actually makes the 9mm+P a higher pressure rd than the 37,500psi SAAMI spec 10mm.

So, when people say, "my 147grn 9mm+P load is better than your 165grn 40s&w because it's more controllable." they are talking from a position of ignorance. I've shot both from a friend's G17 and my G22 as well as from his G19 (his CCW piece) and my G23 (my CCW piece) and the recoil 'snappieness' of the +P 9mm is higher.

Further, I use 180grn loads for my 40s&w SD pieces and the recoil, especially in my G23, is much more of a push rather than a snap. Followup shots comparing a 147grn 9mm+P and 180grn 40s&w, when shot from a G19 and G23 respectively, consistently show that the G23 is actually faster. And not just by me who is use to the 40s&w but also by my friend who owns the G19 we used for the comparison. (Much to his chagrin.)

Bottom line, the 40s&w, like the .357mag, 44mag, and 41mag all have their fans. I understand the appeal of the 9mm to the Leo community. It's favored over the 40s&w because of it's cheaper ammo.

[Sharkbite]

Followup shots comparing a 147grn 9mm+P and 180grn 40s&w, when shot from a G19 and G23 respectively, consistently show that the G23 is actually faster.

While that may be true, it assumes +p ammo in the 9mm.
If we compare standard pressure 9mm 147gn @ ~950/1000fps to 40sw 180gn @~ 950/1000fps the difference in identical guns is apparent and in favor of the 9mm

I was a 40sw fan (Glock 23) until i went overseas and was issued a G19 (State dept contract) and later a G17 (OGA contract) My shooting improved both in speed and accuracy with the 9mm. It wasnt because i shot more, prior to contract work i was a full time instructor at a large shooting school and prob shot 10x what we shot overseas.

Back to the topic of the OP question, i dont think 40 is going anywhere soon. The Colorado State Patrol just started transitioning to the M&P 2.0’s from the 1.0’s they have carried for years.

[Forte S+W]

He was already specifically comparing .40 S&W to 9mm Luger +P, that's what his whole post was about.

9mm Luger +P is indeed substantially higher pressure than .40 S&W, and the recoil between 147gr 9mm Luger +P and 180gr .40 S&W out of a firearm of similar size/weight such as the G19/G23, the 9mm Luger +P is going to have more snap.

That's why I always have to smirk when folks start talking about how one of the reasons why the FBI chose to drop .40 S&W in favor of 9mm Luger is because it's easier for agents to qualify with, yet the FBI issues 9mm +P+ to agents, which obviously has substantially more muzzle flip than a 180gr .40 S&W would, and thus is actually more difficult to qualify with, assuming the loads they use to qualify are loaded to the same specifications.

[ligonierbill]

Ah, another 40 S&W thread. Dead? Friends, I'm still shooting 41 Long Colt. The 40 may be falling out of favor with our public servants, but it's not going away. Why do we keep doing this?

[Forte S+W]

Because a large amount of people share an irrational hatred of the .40 S&W cartridge for absurd reasons like the assertion that the reason why 10mm Auto never really caught on is because the .40 S&W stole its thunder or something.

I don't know if 10mm Fanboys honestly believe that the 10mm would have achieved mainstream popularity if the .40 S&W had never existed or if they just use .40 S&W as a scapegoat for lack of anything better, but on the off chance that anyone honestly believes that... No, 10mm Auto was replaced because the reduced power 10mm Auto loads that the FBI was previously using didn't need as large a firearm to accommodate the powder charge 10mm FBI loads required, ergo shortening the case was just an obvious next step. The FBI never needed a full-power 10mm Auto to begin with and thus they didn't use full-spec 10mm Auto loads from the onset.

In other words, even if the logical next step of shortening the case to form .40 S&W had never been conceptualized, then the FBI might have kept issuing 10mm Auto for a couple of years at best until SIGsauer shortened the 10mm case and then necked it down to form the .357 SIG, then 10mm Fanboys would probably be using; "Tree-Fiddy-Sevin Sure Isn't Great" as a scapegoat for the 10mm Auto lacking mainstream popularity.
Although, it would be hilarious to watch 9mm Fanboys attempting to make the argument that a heavier, faster 9mm bullet was no better than a lighter, slower 9mm bullet in the; "Is .357 SIG dead?" threads.

[Kevin Rohrer]

i see lots of brass on the floor at my local range. Someone must be shooting it.

[lee n. field]

Originally Posted by Forte S+W

He was already specifically comparing .40 S&W to 9mm Luger +P, that's what his whole post was about.

9mm Luger +P is indeed substantially higher pressure than .40 S&W, and the recoil between 147gr 9mm Luger +P and 180gr .40 S&W out of a firearm of similar size/weight such as the G19/G23, the 9mm Luger +P is going to have more snap.

That's why I always have to smirk when folks start talking about how one of the reasons why the FBI chose to drop .40 S&W in favor of 9mm Luger is because it's easier for agents to qualify with, yet the FBI issues 9mm +P+ to agents, which obviously has substantially more muzzle flip than a 180gr .40 S&W would, and thus is actually more difficult to qualify with, assuming the loads they use to qualify are loaded to the same specifications.

Interesting perspective.

Is "snap" something that's quantifiable? (I'm guessing yes, but most wouldn't get much useful out of the charts and graphs, recoil force over time, that do quantify it.)

Almost all of the .40 that I shoot is my own 175 grain lead handloads, which are nothing at all to complain about.

[COSteve]

As Forte S+W opened the door, I'll wade in about the 10mm myself. While I believe that the 40s&w is a better choice for CCW in an urban setting against 2 legged predators, the same can't be said for in the woods.

My custom G20L with 17+1 rds of 180grn or 200grn hardcast is a formidable defense against most anything I'll come up against in the Rockies. With over 900ft/lbs of ME and triple the ammo load of a 6" barreled S&W 686, it's actually less bulky and lighter while shooting a larger, heavier bullet (180grn .40cal vs 158grn .35cal) at a higher velocity producing significantly more ME. Just what you need against dangerous 4 legged predators.

Add to that the fact that the Glock's significantly lower bore axis coupled with the inverted cone shape of all revolver's grips makes for significantly less muzzle rise and/or snap as well as a faster and more accurate followup shot. When you also add in that on board, I've got 18 rds vs 6 for the revolver as well as the fact that the Glock shrugs off dampness, and the choice is obvious for me.

[stephen426]

After the infamous Miami FBI Shoot Out, the 9mm was deemed an ineffective cartridge. They upgraded to the 10mm, but many agents had difficulty controlling the recoil. S&W decided to shorten the 10mm and the .40 S&W was born. The round was a compromise in terms of added round capacity (compared to .45 ACP) with greater weight and power (compared to the 9mm).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...896_story.html

The .40 S&W took the LEO market by storm and I believe that over 70% of agencies moved to the that round. 9mm offers a few more rounds with milder recoil, but I'm not sure that terminal performance is really equal. I guess hits on target is better than more powerful misses.

[Forte S+W]

@COSteve
What sort of nuclear 10mm loads are you packing that deliver 900ft-lbs of energy?! Seriously, even the hottest 10mm loads I have ever seen were just over 700ft-lbs.

[ThomasT]

@COSteve
What sort of nuclear 10mm loads are you packing that deliver 900ft-lbs of energy?! Seriously, even the hottest 10mm loads I have ever seen were just over 700ft-lbs.

To get 900fpe from his 180gr bullet he needs to be getting 1,500fps and to get 900fpe from a 200gr bullet he needs 1,430fps.

I don't have a 10mm and have never shot one. So I don't know if those speeds are possible or not. But the numbers came from the Speer energy numbers chart in the back of their loading manuals.

A 240gr bullet from a 44 mag going 1300fps will also get 900fpe so maybe its possible.

[COSteve]

Originally Posted by Forte S+W

@COSteve
What sort of nuclear 10mm loads are you packing that deliver 900ft-lbs of energy?! Seriously, even the hottest 10mm loads I have ever seen were just over 700ft-lbs.

That's likely because they were chrono'd from a 4.6" barreled G20 or equivalent. Shooting custom handloaded 10mm out of a 6" barrel with powders like Power Pistol, Blue Dot, and 800-X produces some serious velocities.

For example, my 165grn 'nuclear' loads are pushing 1,589fps from my 6" G20L at my range at 6,100asl on an 84° day. That translates to 925ft/lbs of ME. While my 180grn 'hot' loads are pushing 1,479fps from my 6" G20L at my range at 6,100asl on an 84° day. That translates to 874ft/lbs of ME.

I've heard of some fellow shooters at our range pushing some Blue Dot loads even faster out of their G40s.

[Forte S+W]

It's remarkable just how much of a difference an inch or two of barrel can make with these high pressure rounds. I've heard folks say that 10mm could get into .41 Magnum territory, but even the hottest of factory loads only seem to push .357 Magnum.

I'm used to lower pressure rounds like .45 ACP in which the difference between barrel lengths makes far less of a difference.

[ThomasT]

I don't have a 10mm and have never shot one.

That was not true. I forgot my bud bought one a couple of years ago and I have fired 5 rounds from it. He has the Glock 20 IIRC. Nice round but with factory loads it wasn't the powerhouse I thought it would be. Sounds like handloading is the way to go.

With the 4" barrel it won't reach the power levels COSteve is getting but with good handloads I don't see why a jump in power isn't possible. Enough of a boost to make it worth his time to do so since he already reloads.

[Forte S+W]

No doubt about that. I already knew that handloads were generally required to get the most out of 10mm without spending a fortune on boutique ammo, but I had no idea that it could reach that kind of power.

[Siggy-06]

During the Sandy Hook panic buying/ammo drought, all the 9mm, 45 acp, .223/5.56, .22 LR were very hard to find on shelves(at least at all the places I checked here in FL). But, I was still able to find plenty of .40 to feed my Glock 23 and USP.