A different look at the 7.62x39mm

TrendKill777 · July 22, 2010, 05:15 PM

Some people compare the 7.62x39mm to other rifle rounds. They compare it to the .308 and call it underpowered. It is true that at 300 yards its traveling at around high 1500 FPS, and at 400 yards around 1370 FPS. Do you feel that is adequate to stop a man at 300 yards if needed? I think that is comparable to a .357 magnum at the muzzle.

This is my first post on TFL, and I'm looking into getting a Saiga 7.62 as my first center-fire rifle. I was planning on getting a .308 Saiga, but with the stiff prices of .308 and me not having the equipment to reload yet, the 7.62x39 seems a better choice when money is an issue.
What do you think about this cartridge? People say that the 7.62x39mm was designed to wound, but what about the .357 magnum, with a 95% chance of a one shot kill? Is that designed to wound? Well the 7.62 is around the same weight, 5 calibers smaller and is around 800 FPS faster. I might be wrong but that seems reasonable.

I look forward to contributing to this forum. Thank God for no-nonsense.

ronl · July 22, 2010, 05:40 PM

Ge the .308. Much better round.

TX15 · July 22, 2010, 05:54 PM

Better for what usage? Plan to shoot a lot over 300 yards? Ever seen a 300 yard range...it's a loooog way.

The Saiga 7.62 is by far the best bang for the buck in AK's. The only "issue" is non-AK magazine and you can fix that for less than $40 and a bit of home gunsmithing (for 922r you'd need a US made AK magazine and another US part...US gas piston).

But I'd just use it as is. You can get a good scope mount for $30 or so and see if centerfire is your game.

TrendKill777 · July 22, 2010, 06:29 PM

Ever seen a 300 yard range...it's a loooog way.

Yes, i have. That's why I'm thinking about getting the 7.62x39mm AK. If somebody thinks they can shoot beyond 300 on a two way range, they are either foolish or Todd Jarret. Shooting beyond 300 at the range requires concentration.

Ive decided to remove .223 out of my choices because its not as predictable as the x39. A high velocity, light weight round can be deflected by a number of things, and even murphy thinks there are to many factors that may effect that.

HorseSoldier · July 22, 2010, 06:42 PM

Anyone who says the AK (or AR) was desinged to wound has given you permission to ignore anything else they have to say.

DE Shooter · July 22, 2010, 07:38 PM

I picked up a Saiga 7.62x39 when I became Obamasized. The x39 is a great platform for customizing because of the aftermarket accessories and it's still fairly cheap to shoot alot for fun. The .308 will be more $$$ for each. As far as the use/ballistics of what you need...as others have mentioned, each caliber/platform has it's use. If it's to be your 1st centerfire...go with the x39...more bang for the buck. And its still a decent HD/SHTF piece. If you care about real paper punching accuracy find another semi platform and caliber.

kraigwy · July 22, 2010, 07:45 PM

First off any round, I don't care how big, 223, 7.62X39, 308, 375 H&H, will deflect. That brush busting myth is just that, a myth.

Second, have you ever shot at 300 yards? The 7.62X39 is not a target round regardless of what rifle you put it in. You ruled out the 308 because of the cost of ammo tells me you'll be using cheap ammo to start with. Let me tell you, cheap 223 & 308 will out shoot cheap 7.62X39 all day long.

I put on High Power clinics. A lot of people show up with all kinds guns shooting the 7.62X39 and they just wont compete. Even when I used reduced ranges to 100 yards. If you notice, guns shooting 7.62X39 are scarce as hen's teeth on the firing line at Camp Perry. Even in Vintage Military Rifle matches fired at 200 yards, you don't see any 7.62X39 rifles in the winner's circle.

They are good for plinking, that's about it, except for 3 gun or multi gun matches where you are shooting targets at pistol ranges. If thats what you want then by all means the 7.62X39 will work fine.

If you have to shoot people at 300 yards then its because you are in the army and they will give you a gun so don't worry about that. If you want to punch paper, then the 223 or 308 will shoot circles around the 7.62X39.

If you are hunting, neither the 223 or 7.62X39 will be effective at 300 yards. 308 will.

Here is another option that would suite all your concerns including cheap ammo and even a cheap rifle, that being the Mosin in 7.62X54. It'll shoot way past 300 yards, will punch holes in paper. It will be more then enough for hunting at 300 yards and beyond, you get a good M30/91 it will be accurate, run you less then $200 bucks, and you can't get cheap surplus ammo. Even factory loads for hunting is pretty reasonable.

To add what has already been posted, no round has been designed to wound. Deadly force is deadly force. You can muff a shoot with a 458 Win Mag as well as any other round.

TrendKill777 · July 22, 2010, 07:57 PM

Quote:

I picked up a Saiga 7.62x39 when I became Obamasized. The x39 is a great platform for customizing because of the aftermarket accessories and it's still fairly cheap to shoot alot for fun. The .308 will be more $$$ for each. As far as the use/ballistics of what you need...as others have mentioned, each caliber/platform has it's use. If it's to be your 1st centerfire...go with the x39...more bang for the buck. And its still a decent HD/SHTF piece. If you care about real paper punching accuracy find another semi platform and caliber.

That's what I'm figuring. I guess I've settled on the x39. Cheaper mags, cheaper ammo, effective and plenty accurate. Georgia Arms (where I will be getting most of my ammo) sells .308 for two bangs a buck.
I've read about that new federal x39 getting 1 inch groups from Saigas, but I don't know how much truth that carries.

TrendKill777 · July 22, 2010, 08:09 PM

Quote:

you don't see any 7.62X39 rifles in the winner's circle.

I don't think I will be shooting competition, thanks.

Quote:

Here is another option that would suite all your concerns including cheap ammo and even a cheap rifle, that being the Mosin in 7.62X54

I do not want a bolt action.

Quote:

They are good for plinking, that's about it

This will be a SHTF rifle, self defense rifle, and a hunting rifle.

Quote:

If you are hunting, neither the 223 or 7.62X39 will be effective at 300 yards. 308 will.

That's funny because a lot of deer have fallen to the .30-30. I don't know, but I just guess they found a way.

Hunley · July 22, 2010, 08:30 PM

Kraigwy hit the nail on the head. I've seen the "brush busting" 45-70 loaded in a "Ruger Model 1 only" configuration deflect.

brmfan · July 22, 2010, 09:16 PM

-----

noyes · July 22, 2010, 10:56 PM

You could try one of these

0r

http://www.centerfiresystems.com/rifle-akfpk-plum.aspx

fastgixxerlv · July 22, 2010, 11:04 PM

Hunting at 300 yards with an AK? I have one and no way am I comfortable taking game at 300 yards with an AK. I'm not a super marksman but I can shoot, and the AK is not accurate enough for me to hunt with at those ranges. 100 yards for sure!

jimbob86 · July 22, 2010, 11:10 PM

Quote:

That's funny because a lot of deer have fallen to the .30-30. I don't know, but I just guess they found a way.

True, "a lot of deer have fallen to the .30-.30" ..... but damn few of them at 300 yards.

bamaranger · July 23, 2010, 02:13 AM

Pretty sure the OP is looking at SD/PD use and not hunting. The mention of "one shot stops" and comparison to the .357, and I think his own comments later make the conclusion pretty certain.

Sure, the x39 will be bad news for anyone hit w/ it at 300. Punch some vitals and they will most certainly expire in short order. A non vital hit may or may not reduce their threat to you. We all like to talk SD/HD and range, but the likely hood of a civilian, or even a LE threat at 300 is slim, really. I'll keep talking it, and plan accordingly, but.........

The issue is the AK/Saiga platform, which is universally recognized as NOT being a dx weapon and pretty much a bullet hose. True AK's are full auto to get lots of lead in air, and increase the chance of a hit and suppress the enemy.

I think the x39 is a good choice as a FIRST centerfire. Recoil and blast are not severe, and I believe the round is a bit more flexible than .223 for medium game hunting, though you state you are not interested in that.

Regards your choice of rifles, you state you want a semi, would you consider a Mini-30? Same ctg, US made, easy repair if necessary, factory high caps now available if desired, easily scope w/ US rings and optics, and an arguably more accurate "platform" than an AK or clone/derivative. Plus, if you want to accurize, there are vendors out there that can milk a lot out of a Mini.

TrendKill777 · July 23, 2010, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Regards your choice of rifles, you state you want a semi, would you consider a Mini-30? Same ctg, US made, easy repair if necessary, factory high caps now available if desired, easily scope w/ US rings and optics, and an arguably more accurate "platform" than an AK or clone/derivative. Plus, if you want to accurize, there are vendors out there that can milk a lot out of a Mini.

I have read some good things about the x39 Saiga with quality ammo like Corbon and Federal (1 inch and under), and i have heard 4 inches or worse with bad quality ammo. I'm convined that the Saiga is as good as the ammo, and I will be using the cheap ammo for practice, and the expensive stuff when it matters.

I have also read bad things about Rugers new Mini-14's and 30's. Allegedly when the barrel heats up, the group spreads from 2-3 inches, to 5 inches. That is typical WASR accuracy, and if the Saiga had typical WASR accuracy I would not buy it either. However I don't know how much truth that holds.

In the original post I was pondering between x39 and x51, and if the x39 was up to its designated effective range of 300 yards.

Lloyd Smale · July 23, 2010, 06:55 AM

as to it not being a target round or used at camp perry thats more of a velocity problem then an accuarcy problem. Ive got two a ruger bolt and a bushmaster ar and both will shoot under an inch at a 100 yards with loads they like. Ive shot 5 inch groups at 300 yards many times. the problem is that trajectory just isnt near as flat as a 308 and it takes some kentucky windage in comparison. Now i would doubt for a minute that if a guy built a heavy barreled rifle with care in 762x39 it would be just as accurate as a 308 done the same. Probalby more so if someone ever made a match bullet for the 762x39. dont be fooled by wolf ammo and inaccurate aks. In a proper platform the 762x39 is a very accurate round and if used in an accurate gun by a good shooter its more then capable of putting kill zone hits on a man sized target out to 300 yards and i personaly wouldnt want to get hit by a bullet shot by one at that range. Im sure it has more knockdown then a 556 at that range.

thesheepdog · July 23, 2010, 08:30 AM

Get a Saiga .223 or .308

The only advantage I see to having the 7.62X39mm is that you'll have a crap load of brass left-over to re-size into 6.5 Grendel when you decide to get one.

Teirst · July 23, 2010, 08:45 AM

Why not go with a 5.45x39??

You can still have you "AK"
the ammo is even cheaper
The round is more accurate

and for SD/HD you get the "poison bullet"

As far as the 54r, you can pick up a psl for close to 600. For what he wants seems like that would be the best choice. One of the things that have been driven into me on these and other forums is that the price of the rifle is the smallest expense when it comes to shooting.

Lashlarue · July 23, 2010, 10:06 AM

I have a Saiga in 223, they are test fired at the factory, my booklet said 84mm group which is a bit over 3" at 100m, according to other enthusiasts , that's about as good as you get with a Russian AK platform.Barrel whip on AKs is infamous.It can be improved with a barrel/gas tube clamp. Milled receuvers will do much better, but they usually don't have a chrome lined barrel and the cost exponential...

Cornhusker77 · July 23, 2010, 10:31 AM

Interesting thread
I've got the Saiga in .223, and I've been thinking of getting one in 7.62x39 just because the ammo is cheap and I like shooting.

DanThaMan1776 · July 23, 2010, 11:56 AM

You sound like you want the rifle for war.

What uses??

Teirst · July 23, 2010, 12:07 PM

he stated the purpose of the rifle will be for SHTF, Self defense, and hunting

azredhawk44 · July 23, 2010, 12:25 PM

A Saiga might be able to get 1MOA from a bench with the best possible ammo.

But, once you get off the bench... the Saiga will rapidly leave the desired 4-6MOA field-effective window. Even with that awesome ammo that shoots 1MOA from the bench. The quality of the trigger on your rifle DRAMATICALLY affects your accuracy from field positions. It's easier to compensate for a bad trigger from a bench, and hide the real field expedient accuracy of a rifle.

bamaranger · July 23, 2010, 12:38 PM

Sounds to me like you've got your mind made up on a Saiga which is fine, its your money, and they sell lots of them.

I doubt you will get 1-2 MOA w/ it, in x39 cal. , with anybody's ammo.

All rifles accuracy deteriorate as the bbls heat excessively, including, but not just, the Mini family. Actually, I read the opposite, that the newer Mini's are more accurate than the older ones, as a rule, due to new tooling, better twist rates and bbl dia. But who knows if what you hear/read is true. My early .308 dia mini-30 shoots into 2-3 MOA w/ USA mfg ammo and a scope. I will someday put an accu-strut on mine and report back.

I do have no doubt that x39 is lethal and a significant deterrent to serious threats from an adversary hit w/ same at 300 yds. It is not .308 win equivalent, as you already noted.

I can only comment on my hunting experience regards, killing power, but..... I have killed, or been present, when avg whitetails were shot w/ x39 to 100 yds w/ quality USA mfg SP and reloaded ammo, and they got dead like w/ any other deer cal ,some, DRT. This from scoped MIni-30 and M77 bolt rifles.

If you get the Saiga, shoot some honest, 100 yd groups w/ it and report back.

July 22, 2010, 05:15 PM	#1
TrendKill777 Junior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Waycross, GA Posts: 7	A different look at the 7.62x39mm Some people compare the 7.62x39mm to other rifle rounds. They compare it to the .308 and call it underpowered. It is true that at 300 yards its traveling at around high 1500 FPS, and at 400 yards around 1370 FPS. Do you feel that is adequate to stop a man at 300 yards if needed? I think that is comparable to a .357 magnum at the muzzle. This is my first post on TFL, and I'm looking into getting a Saiga 7.62 as my first center-fire rifle. I was planning on getting a .308 Saiga, but with the stiff prices of .308 and me not having the equipment to reload yet, the 7.62x39 seems a better choice when money is an issue. What do you think about this cartridge? People say that the 7.62x39mm was designed to wound, but what about the .357 magnum, with a 95% chance of a one shot kill? Is that designed to wound? Well the 7.62 is around the same weight, 5 calibers smaller and is around 800 FPS faster. I might be wrong but that seems reasonable. I look forward to contributing to this forum. Thank God for no-nonsense. Last edited by TrendKill777; July 22, 2010 at 06:36 PM.

July 22, 2010, 07:45 PM	#7
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	First off any round, I don't care how big, 223, 7.62X39, 308, 375 H&H, will deflect. That brush busting myth is just that, a myth. Second, have you ever shot at 300 yards? The 7.62X39 is not a target round regardless of what rifle you put it in. You ruled out the 308 because of the cost of ammo tells me you'll be using cheap ammo to start with. Let me tell you, cheap 223 & 308 will out shoot cheap 7.62X39 all day long. I put on High Power clinics. A lot of people show up with all kinds guns shooting the 7.62X39 and they just wont compete. Even when I used reduced ranges to 100 yards. If you notice, guns shooting 7.62X39 are scarce as hen's teeth on the firing line at Camp Perry. Even in Vintage Military Rifle matches fired at 200 yards, you don't see any 7.62X39 rifles in the winner's circle. They are good for plinking, that's about it, except for 3 gun or multi gun matches where you are shooting targets at pistol ranges. If thats what you want then by all means the 7.62X39 will work fine. If you have to shoot people at 300 yards then its because you are in the army and they will give you a gun so don't worry about that. If you want to punch paper, then the 223 or 308 will shoot circles around the 7.62X39. If you are hunting, neither the 223 or 7.62X39 will be effective at 300 yards. 308 will. Here is another option that would suite all your concerns including cheap ammo and even a cheap rifle, that being the Mosin in 7.62X54. It'll shoot way past 300 yards, will punch holes in paper. It will be more then enough for hunting at 300 yards and beyond, you get a good M30/91 it will be accurate, run you less then $200 bucks, and you can't get cheap surplus ammo. Even factory loads for hunting is pretty reasonable. To add what has already been posted, no round has been designed to wound. Deadly force is deadly force. You can muff a shoot with a 458 Win Mag as well as any other round. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

July 22, 2010, 08:30 PM	#10
Hunley Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2009 Location: Statesboro, GA Posts: 241	Kraigwy hit the nail on the head. I've seen the "brush busting" 45-70 loaded in a "Ruger Model 1 only" configuration deflect. __________________ "The best caliber and round for self defense are the ones in the gun closest to you" - My Grandfather

July 22, 2010, 09:16 PM	#11
brmfan Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2008 Posts: 557	----- Last edited by brmfan; July 22, 2010 at 09:31 PM.

July 22, 2010, 10:56 PM	#12
noyes Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Posts: 1,032	You could try one of these 0r http://www.centerfiresystems.com/rifle-akfpk-plum.aspx Last edited by noyes; July 26, 2010 at 10:51 AM.

July 22, 2010, 05:40 PM	#2
ronl Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Posts: 1,100	Ge the .308. Much better round.

July 22, 2010, 05:54 PM	#3
TX15 Member Join Date: November 1, 2004 Posts: 33	Better for what usage? Plan to shoot a lot over 300 yards? Ever seen a 300 yard range...it's a loooog way. The Saiga 7.62 is by far the best bang for the buck in AK's. The only "issue" is non-AK magazine and you can fix that for less than $40 and a bit of home gunsmithing (for 922r you'd need a US made AK magazine and another US part...US gas piston). But I'd just use it as is. You can get a good scope mount for $30 or so and see if centerfire is your game.

July 22, 2010, 06:29 PM	#4
TrendKill777 Junior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Waycross, GA Posts: 7	Ever seen a 300 yard range...it's a loooog way. Yes, i have. That's why I'm thinking about getting the 7.62x39mm AK. If somebody thinks they can shoot beyond 300 on a two way range, they are either foolish or Todd Jarret. Shooting beyond 300 at the range requires concentration. Ive decided to remove .223 out of my choices because its not as predictable as the x39. A high velocity, light weight round can be deflected by a number of things, and even murphy thinks there are to many factors that may effect that.

July 22, 2010, 06:42 PM	#5
HorseSoldier Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2006 Location: OCONUS 61°13′06″N 149°53′57″W Posts: 2,282	Anyone who says the AK (or AR) was desinged to wound has given you permission to ignore anything else they have to say.

July 22, 2010, 07:38 PM	#6
DE Shooter Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Posts: 215	I picked up a Saiga 7.62x39 when I became Obamasized. The x39 is a great platform for customizing because of the aftermarket accessories and it's still fairly cheap to shoot alot for fun. The .308 will be more $$$ for each. As far as the use/ballistics of what you need...as others have mentioned, each caliber/platform has it's use. If it's to be your 1st centerfire...go with the x39...more bang for the buck. And its still a decent HD/SHTF piece. If you care about real paper punching accuracy find another semi platform and caliber.

July 22, 2010, 11:04 PM	#13
fastgixxerlv Member Join Date: May 11, 2010 Posts: 23	Hunting at 300 yards with an AK? I have one and no way am I comfortable taking game at 300 yards with an AK. I'm not a super marksman but I can shoot, and the AK is not accurate enough for me to hunt with at those ranges. 100 yards for sure!

July 23, 2010, 02:13 AM	#15
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,300	300 yds Pretty sure the OP is looking at SD/PD use and not hunting. The mention of "one shot stops" and comparison to the .357, and I think his own comments later make the conclusion pretty certain. Sure, the x39 will be bad news for anyone hit w/ it at 300. Punch some vitals and they will most certainly expire in short order. A non vital hit may or may not reduce their threat to you. We all like to talk SD/HD and range, but the likely hood of a civilian, or even a LE threat at 300 is slim, really. I'll keep talking it, and plan accordingly, but......... The issue is the AK/Saiga platform, which is universally recognized as NOT being a dx weapon and pretty much a bullet hose. True AK's are full auto to get lots of lead in air, and increase the chance of a hit and suppress the enemy. I think the x39 is a good choice as a FIRST centerfire. Recoil and blast are not severe, and I believe the round is a bit more flexible than .223 for medium game hunting, though you state you are not interested in that. Regards your choice of rifles, you state you want a semi, would you consider a Mini-30? Same ctg, US made, easy repair if necessary, factory high caps now available if desired, easily scope w/ US rings and optics, and an arguably more accurate "platform" than an AK or clone/derivative. Plus, if you want to accurize, there are vendors out there that can milk a lot out of a Mini.

July 23, 2010, 06:55 AM	#17
Lloyd Smale Junior member Join Date: February 11, 2005 Posts: 822	as to it not being a target round or used at camp perry thats more of a velocity problem then an accuarcy problem. Ive got two a ruger bolt and a bushmaster ar and both will shoot under an inch at a 100 yards with loads they like. Ive shot 5 inch groups at 300 yards many times. the problem is that trajectory just isnt near as flat as a 308 and it takes some kentucky windage in comparison. Now i would doubt for a minute that if a guy built a heavy barreled rifle with care in 762x39 it would be just as accurate as a 308 done the same. Probalby more so if someone ever made a match bullet for the 762x39. dont be fooled by wolf ammo and inaccurate aks. In a proper platform the 762x39 is a very accurate round and if used in an accurate gun by a good shooter its more then capable of putting kill zone hits on a man sized target out to 300 yards and i personaly wouldnt want to get hit by a bullet shot by one at that range. Im sure it has more knockdown then a 556 at that range.

July 23, 2010, 08:30 AM	#18
thesheepdog Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2010 Location: DFW Texas Posts: 1,996	Get a Saiga .223 or .308 The only advantage I see to having the 7.62X39mm is that you'll have a crap load of brass left-over to re-size into 6.5 Grendel when you decide to get one. __________________ Krav Maga/Judo Qualified Rifleman/Marksmanship Instructor/Lic. Medic "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit" Romans 8:1

July 23, 2010, 08:45 AM	#19
Teirst Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2010 Posts: 267	Why not go with a 5.45x39?? You can still have you "AK" the ammo is even cheaper The round is more accurate and for SD/HD you get the "poison bullet" As far as the 54r, you can pick up a psl for close to 600. For what he wants seems like that would be the best choice. One of the things that have been driven into me on these and other forums is that the price of the rifle is the smallest expense when it comes to shooting.

July 23, 2010, 10:06 AM	#20
Lashlarue Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2008 Posts: 533	I have a Saiga in 223, they are test fired at the factory, my booklet said 84mm group which is a bit over 3" at 100m, according to other enthusiasts , that's about as good as you get with a Russian AK platform.Barrel whip on AKs is infamous.It can be improved with a barrel/gas tube clamp. Milled receuvers will do much better, but they usually don't have a chrome lined barrel and the cost exponential... __________________ I've made a lot of money in my life, most was spent on booze, babes, guns, and poker,the rest I wasted!

July 23, 2010, 10:31 AM	#21
Cornhusker77 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2009 Posts: 219	Interesting thread I've got the Saiga in .223, and I've been thinking of getting one in 7.62x39 just because the ammo is cheap and I like shooting.

July 23, 2010, 11:56 AM	#22
DanThaMan1776 Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Location: Illinois Posts: 395	You sound like you want the rifle for war. What uses?? __________________ Amateurs think equipment, Students think techniques, Experts think tactics.

July 23, 2010, 12:07 PM	#23
Teirst Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2010 Posts: 267	he stated the purpose of the rifle will be for SHTF, Self defense, and hunting

July 23, 2010, 12:25 PM	#24
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	A Saiga might be able to get 1MOA from a bench with the best possible ammo. But, once you get off the bench... the Saiga will rapidly leave the desired 4-6MOA field-effective window. Even with that awesome ammo that shoots 1MOA from the bench. The quality of the trigger on your rifle DRAMATICALLY affects your accuracy from field positions. It's easier to compensate for a bad trigger from a bench, and hide the real field expedient accuracy of a rifle.

July 23, 2010, 12:38 PM	#25
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,300	mind made up????? Sounds to me like you've got your mind made up on a Saiga which is fine, its your money, and they sell lots of them. I doubt you will get 1-2 MOA w/ it, in x39 cal. , with anybody's ammo. All rifles accuracy deteriorate as the bbls heat excessively, including, but not just, the Mini family. Actually, I read the opposite, that the newer Mini's are more accurate than the older ones, as a rule, due to new tooling, better twist rates and bbl dia. But who knows if what you hear/read is true. My early .308 dia mini-30 shoots into 2-3 MOA w/ USA mfg ammo and a scope. I will someday put an accu-strut on mine and report back. I do have no doubt that x39 is lethal and a significant deterrent to serious threats from an adversary hit w/ same at 300 yds. It is not .308 win equivalent, as you already noted. I can only comment on my hunting experience regards, killing power, but..... I have killed, or been present, when avg whitetails were shot w/ x39 to 100 yds w/ quality USA mfg SP and reloaded ammo, and they got dead like w/ any other deer cal ,some, DRT. This from scoped MIni-30 and M77 bolt rifles. If you get the Saiga, shoot some honest, 100 yd groups w/ it and report back.