Crimp with photos. Need opinions

Ike Clanton · August 3, 2017, 10:32 PM

Hello! First post ever here however I know this topic is a dead horse. I've learned a lot through internet searches however. I test fired my first batch of 45 colt and all went well however I put one round in the chamber that I didn't fire during the course of 10 rounds. The crimp wasn't tight enough because the bullet pulled slightly from the case. Then I realized i could physically push the bullet into the case with my fingers until it hit the top of the cannelure groove. I then tightened the crimp to the point I couldn't physically push it into the case with my hands.
I just wanna know if it looks like too much crimp. Load is 250 gr LNFP 9.1 GR CFE pistol. Chronographed at 937fps in Ruger BH 5.5. And yes I've worked this load up from 8.8 GR just not in my own press.

Dufus · August 3, 2017, 11:07 PM

The crimp looks fine to my eyes, although that would not be the cause of a misfire.

JT-AR-MG42 · August 3, 2017, 11:25 PM

The photos show plenty of crimp all right.
More than I think you might need, as case life will suffer.

If you are able to push the bullet back into the case by hand, I would suggest
you measure the expander you are using.
My guess is that the expander is the problem, not the crimp.
Good quality die set?

Not enough case tension on that bullet, as you should not be
able to shove the bullet into the case without mechanical help - dies.

JT

Ike Clanton · August 4, 2017, 06:56 AM

I'm using hornady custom grade dies on a LNL progressive press. I have the expander set to where the bullet just barely sits in the case before seating. How shoud I measure it?

jaguarxk120 · August 4, 2017, 07:42 AM

Also what is the diameter of the bullet you are using.

Did you measure them?

Ike Clanton · August 4, 2017, 07:56 AM

The bullets are badman .452

Mike / Tx · August 4, 2017, 08:35 AM

What is being referred to with mention to your sizing plug is to measure the plug itself and make sure it is somewhere around .450". It should expand the mouth of the case some but still leave it smaller in diameter than the bullet being seated by around .001-.002" ballpark. This of course can also be effected by the case neck thickness as well as the softness of the brass.

Anothe thing I see here is your using the CFE Pistol. I haven't tried it in my bigger bore handguns but i have shot a couple of pounds of it through my 9mm. What I noticed was that compared to the other powders I use with the 9 is that it has a bit more snappy recoil. This could help to produce the issue your seeing.

Your going about things the proper way with regard to your test of the crimp. I do the same thing and if everything holds tight I call it good. If something moves around .005" or so longer I give the crimp die a smidge more of a turn in. The bell you refer to at the top of the case rim should not be an issue with regard to the actual crimp.

One powder I have found to be great with my Colt is Unique. It just works. While it might be a bit sooty, it shoots all bullet weights great and does everything you could ask with regard to velocity.

Good Luck and hope this helps.

mikld · August 4, 2017, 10:57 AM

I would seat the bullet a bit deeper, so the case mouth is even with the upper edge of the crimp groove. Use the same crimp die setting and allow the "roll" to make a cleaner/"rounder" transition into the groove. But the pictured round looks fine, shoot 'em up!...

Ike Clanton · August 4, 2017, 11:07 AM

Great thank you! Just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to create pressure issues with too much crimp. I'll check my expander too.

HiBC · August 4, 2017, 02:51 PM

An issue with the 45 Colt is there is variation in cylinder throat and bore diameters from gun to gun.
You are using .452 bullets.
Do those just barely slip through your cylinder throats?
You want the gun to load without interference,but fit close in the throat.(I'll skip the part about matching throat dias to groove dia)
I don't own a 45 Colt,so I'm guessing at the numbers,but a proper fitting 45 Colt bullet COULD be as small as .452,or even .451...(but those are usually 45 ACP).
I think many 45 Colts use .454 or .455 bullets to fit the cylinder or groove dia.

I think generally your expander plug may establish neck tension for a .454 or so bullet.

I suggest you begin by verifying that .452 is a good bullet fit in your gun. If a cast bullet is .001 undersize,hot gas leaks past it.The surface of the bullet melts. You get leading and substandard accuracy. A good fit helps bullet alignment,also.

You might have the proper dia at .452. It would not surprise me if .454 or .455 were a better fit. Bingo! You have more neck tension.
If your gun truly needs a .452 bullet,it is possible to replace or spin down your expander plug .002 or .003 smaller.

Your crimp looks good on the max side.Just a touch less will do and be easier on your brass.

Ike Clanton · August 4, 2017, 04:39 PM

Wow there's a lot that goes into this. Thanks to all of you for the guidance.

**44 AMP** · August 4, 2017, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Then I realized i could physically push the bullet into the case with my fingers until it hit the top of the cannelure groove. I then tightened the crimp to the point I couldn't physically push it into the case with my hands.

Your problem is insufficient neck tension. Using more crimp addresses the symptom but does not solve the problem. The bullet should be tight enough in the case so that you cannot move it with your fingers, or by pressing firmly against a desk, WITHOUT ANY CRIMP.

Prior to WWII the "usual" groove diameter of .45 Colts was .454" Since WWII, the usual groove diameter has been reduced to .452"-.451". This allows good use of .45ACP bullets (and ammo in guns with a cylinder for it. .454" lead slugs squeeze down in the smaller bores, just fine.

You need to look at your dies and their adjustment, the bullets you are using, and if your brass, and their fit together.

If you are using a powder through expander in a progressive press that could be the issue. Using that kind of set up means the expander plug must not only be the right dimensions in diameter, it must also be the right diameter at specific spots along its length as well, in order to give the powder measure the correct "throw" distance.

THings could be off at that point.

lots of things to check, but the point is that a properly made round will not allow the bullet to move, without any crimp being used. Once you can make rounds like that, THEN you apply enough crimp to overcome the bullet pull of recoil during revolver firing.

Good luck, and let us know what you find out.

HiBC · August 5, 2017, 02:41 PM

It might very well be that a .452 bullet is a good fit....particularly since Ruger made 45 ACP convertible cylinders for some 45 Colt revolvers.
Bullet fit would be a good thing to confirm.

If the .452 dia bullet is good,.451/.452 are typical of 45 ACP...which means a 45 ACP expander (replacement part for your dies) might fix your neck tension right up.
If your dies are "charge through the expander"...with a Lyman "M" die type bullet leade...getting the lengths just right might indicate ordering an alternate dia from the manufacturer.
But if they are a standard die set,say a Lee or RCBS 3 die set,you should be able to just replace the plug.

T. O'Heir · August 6, 2017, 01:23 PM

"...from 8.8 grains..." 8.8 is not the Start load for CFE Pistol and a cast 250. It's only .4 from the max load. Mind you, the start load is only .8 from the Max. And the Ruger loads make it a mid range load with a jacketed bullet. No using jacketed data for cast bullets. Isn't though. Hodgdon used a .452" bullet as well.
"...it hit the top of the cannelure..." That's actually good enough. The idea is to keep the bulletin place under recoil. If it move a wee bit, that's ok.
"...that I didn't fire..." That you didn't fire or it wouldn't fire? A slightly loose bullet isn't going to cause any grief.

**Unclenick** · August 6, 2017, 02:15 PM

Ike,

Run a case through the sizing die, then slip it up into the expander by hand to feel for drag. If the narrow part of the expander, before the flare shoulder, is wider than the case, then that is probably over-expanding and you should reduce it by 0.001" or so and try again. You can do that by running some 320 grit emery cloth over that narrower portion of its diameter shoe-shine back-and-forth, rotating the part around a third of a turn every few strokes until your calipers tell you about 0.001" has been removed. Then polish it a lightly with Flitz or Gunbrite or MAAS or JB Bore Compound or Iosso Bore Cleaner or Brasso or automotive rubbing compound or even just with toothpaste.

If the resized case slips over that narrower portion of the expander, then the resizing die isn't sizing the brass narrow enough. I've seen this happen with a number die makes with some brands of brass that is extra thin and springy. R-P brass is a frequent offender in this regard. If that is what you have, then you will probably have no problem after switching to another brand. I like Starline brass in this application, but YMMV.

Another thing, as recommended above, is to see how loose your bullets are in your chamber throats. If a 0.453" or even a 0.454" can be moved through the end of your cylinder, you want to get bullets in that size (some makers give you a choice), in which case fit will no longer be loose, regardless of case brand.

Yet another alternative is to pick up a tighter sizing die. Dillon dies are usually tighter than average. You could also contact Hornady and tell them what's happening and see if thy can supply you with a tighter die.

Ike Clanton · August 7, 2017, 07:04 AM

So if my Ruger BH fits a .452 best and my beretta stampede fits a .454 best should I make different ammo for both or would I be fine using .452 for both?

pete2 · August 7, 2017, 09:11 AM

About 40 years ago I had the same problem. The Lyman dies I had were for a .454" bullet but bullets were already .452, bbl in the Blackhawk was .451. Lyman replaced the sizing die with one of the correct size. The only other time I've seen such as this is with a Lee carbide die for .45 ACP. I figure you get what you pay for so no great surprise with the Lee die.

August 4, 2017, 08:35 AM	#7
Mike / Tx Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Posts: 2,101	What is being referred to with mention to your sizing plug is to measure the plug itself and make sure it is somewhere around .450". It should expand the mouth of the case some but still leave it smaller in diameter than the bullet being seated by around .001-.002" ballpark. This of course can also be effected by the case neck thickness as well as the softness of the brass. Anothe thing I see here is your using the CFE Pistol. I haven't tried it in my bigger bore handguns but i have shot a couple of pounds of it through my 9mm. What I noticed was that compared to the other powders I use with the 9 is that it has a bit more snappy recoil. This could help to produce the issue your seeing. Your going about things the proper way with regard to your test of the crimp. I do the same thing and if everything holds tight I call it good. If something moves around .005" or so longer I give the crimp die a smidge more of a turn in. The bell you refer to at the top of the case rim should not be an issue with regard to the actual crimp. One powder I have found to be great with my Colt is Unique. It just works. While it might be a bit sooty, it shoots all bullet weights great and does everything you could ask with regard to velocity. Good Luck and hope this helps. __________________ LAter, Mike / TX

August 4, 2017, 10:57 AM	#8
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	I would seat the bullet a bit deeper, so the case mouth is even with the upper edge of the crimp groove. Use the same crimp die setting and allow the "roll" to make a cleaner/"rounder" transition into the groove. But the pictured round looks fine, shoot 'em up!... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

August 5, 2017, 02:41 PM	#13
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,288	It might very well be that a .452 bullet is a good fit....particularly since Ruger made 45 ACP convertible cylinders for some 45 Colt revolvers. Bullet fit would be a good thing to confirm. If the .452 dia bullet is good,.451/.452 are typical of 45 ACP...which means a 45 ACP expander (replacement part for your dies) might fix your neck tension right up. If your dies are "charge through the expander"...with a Lyman "M" die type bullet leade...getting the lengths just right might indicate ordering an alternate dia from the manufacturer. But if they are a standard die set,say a Lee or RCBS 3 die set,you should be able to just replace the plug. Last edited by HiBC; August 5, 2017 at 02:50 PM.

August 6, 2017, 01:23 PM	#14
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...from 8.8 grains..." 8.8 is not the Start load for CFE Pistol and a cast 250. It's only .4 from the max load. Mind you, the start load is only .8 from the Max. And the Ruger loads make it a mid range load with a jacketed bullet. No using jacketed data for cast bullets. Isn't though. Hodgdon used a .452" bullet as well. "...it hit the top of the cannelure..." That's actually good enough. The idea is to keep the bulletin place under recoil. If it move a wee bit, that's ok. "...that I didn't fire..." That you didn't fire or it wouldn't fire? A slightly loose bullet isn't going to cause any grief. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

August 6, 2017, 02:15 PM	#15
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Ike, Run a case through the sizing die, then slip it up into the expander by hand to feel for drag. If the narrow part of the expander, before the flare shoulder, is wider than the case, then that is probably over-expanding and you should reduce it by 0.001" or so and try again. You can do that by running some 320 grit emery cloth over that narrower portion of its diameter shoe-shine back-and-forth, rotating the part around a third of a turn every few strokes until your calipers tell you about 0.001" has been removed. Then polish it a lightly with Flitz or Gunbrite or MAAS or JB Bore Compound or Iosso Bore Cleaner or Brasso or automotive rubbing compound or even just with toothpaste. If the resized case slips over that narrower portion of the expander, then the resizing die isn't sizing the brass narrow enough. I've seen this happen with a number die makes with some brands of brass that is extra thin and springy. R-P brass is a frequent offender in this regard. If that is what you have, then you will probably have no problem after switching to another brand. I like Starline brass in this application, but YMMV. Another thing, as recommended above, is to see how loose your bullets are in your chamber throats. If a 0.453" or even a 0.454" can be moved through the end of your cylinder, you want to get bullets in that size (some makers give you a choice), in which case fit will no longer be loose, regardless of case brand. Yet another alternative is to pick up a tighter sizing die. Dillon dies are usually tighter than average. You could also contact Hornady and tell them what's happening and see if thy can supply you with a tighter die. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

August 3, 2017, 11:07 PM	#2
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	The crimp looks fine to my eyes, although that would not be the cause of a misfire.

August 3, 2017, 11:25 PM	#3
JT-AR-MG42 Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Posts: 555	The photos show plenty of crimp all right. More than I think you might need, as case life will suffer. If you are able to push the bullet back into the case by hand, I would suggest you measure the expander you are using. My guess is that the expander is the problem, not the crimp. Good quality die set? Not enough case tension on that bullet, as you should not be able to shove the bullet into the case without mechanical help - dies. JT

August 4, 2017, 06:56 AM	#4
Ike Clanton Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 2017 Location: Oregon Posts: 120	I'm using hornady custom grade dies on a LNL progressive press. I have the expander set to where the bullet just barely sits in the case before seating. How shoud I measure it?

August 4, 2017, 07:42 AM	#5
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	Also what is the diameter of the bullet you are using. Did you measure them?

August 4, 2017, 07:56 AM	#6
Ike Clanton Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 2017 Location: Oregon Posts: 120	The bullets are badman .452

August 4, 2017, 11:07 AM	#9
Ike Clanton Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 2017 Location: Oregon Posts: 120	Great thank you! Just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to create pressure issues with too much crimp. I'll check my expander too.

August 4, 2017, 02:51 PM	#10
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,288	An issue with the 45 Colt is there is variation in cylinder throat and bore diameters from gun to gun. You are using .452 bullets. Do those just barely slip through your cylinder throats? You want the gun to load without interference,but fit close in the throat.(I'll skip the part about matching throat dias to groove dia) I don't own a 45 Colt,so I'm guessing at the numbers,but a proper fitting 45 Colt bullet COULD be as small as .452,or even .451...(but those are usually 45 ACP). I think many 45 Colts use .454 or .455 bullets to fit the cylinder or groove dia. I think generally your expander plug may establish neck tension for a .454 or so bullet. I suggest you begin by verifying that .452 is a good bullet fit in your gun. If a cast bullet is .001 undersize,hot gas leaks past it.The surface of the bullet melts. You get leading and substandard accuracy. A good fit helps bullet alignment,also. You might have the proper dia at .452. It would not surprise me if .454 or .455 were a better fit. Bingo! You have more neck tension. If your gun truly needs a .452 bullet,it is possible to replace or spin down your expander plug .002 or .003 smaller. Your crimp looks good on the max side.Just a touch less will do and be easier on your brass.

August 4, 2017, 04:39 PM	#11
Ike Clanton Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 2017 Location: Oregon Posts: 120	Wow there's a lot that goes into this. Thanks to all of you for the guidance.

August 7, 2017, 07:04 AM	#16
Ike Clanton Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 2017 Location: Oregon Posts: 120	So if my Ruger BH fits a .452 best and my beretta stampede fits a .454 best should I make different ammo for both or would I be fine using .452 for both?

August 7, 2017, 09:11 AM	#17
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,566	About 40 years ago I had the same problem. The Lyman dies I had were for a .454" bullet but bullets were already .452, bbl in the Blackhawk was .451. Lyman replaced the sizing die with one of the correct size. The only other time I've seen such as this is with a Lee carbide die for .45 ACP. I figure you get what you pay for so no great surprise with the Lee die.