Knife brought to gun fight at Wal-Mart

[Deaf Smith]

http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story...provider=gnews

Police: Man pulls gun during knife fight, faces no charges

"According to investigators, the 26-year-old picked a fight with another customer inside the store. At some point, Dressler pulled a knife.

Another customer, Billy Dunkelberger, 21, tried to help. Officers said Dressler then pointed his knife at him, so Dunkelberger pulled a gun.

No one was hurt, and police arrested Dressler. He's charged with aggravated assault.

Dunkelberger is not facing any charges."



And the son of the man who was attacked said Dunkelberger told the knife welder, "'don't bring a knife to a gun fight".

[Sixer]

And the son of the man who was attacked said Dunkelberger told the knife welder, "'don't bring a knife to a gun fight".

Awesome.

[The Tourist]

Yes, I know it's a joke, and we've all heard it. The problem is that at contact distances the individual man is the real weapon, not the hardware. And deep wounds to tendons and major arteries are lethal. A femoral artery beats an ambulance every time.

Suppose the guy with the knife was Jerry Vancook or James Keating?

The blade guys among us would be laughing, "Hey, the deceased brought a gun to a knife fight!"

http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/kunsan.asp

[Miketodd04]

Thats awesome. Perfect place to say that too.

[Doc Intrepid]

Somehow I bet that Jerry Vancook or James Keating don't pull knives on people shopping in a Wal-Mart, but I could be mistaken.....

http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/

[Miketodd04]

I'm pretty sure that Willy The Pimp from POWM.com doesn't bring a knife either! (I love that website)

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by Doc Intrepid

Somehow I bet that Jerry Vancook or James Keating don't pull knives on people shopping in a Wal-Mart

Obviously, they don't. But I'd like to splash some cold water on the guys that think that just because they own a gun they become the instant undisputed winner. Guess again.

I'm no mercenary but I have three years of competitive fencing training. Because of my job I have access to some of the best cutting tools the world makes.

Christian or not, do you actually believe I'm going to let a thug with a smirk and a Raven hurt me and my wife? And while you're pondering that, imagine what a handmade S30V Graham SS3 Razel with a mirror edge can do to the human body.

My issue here is the "knife to a gunfight" joke has become so bandied about in our circle that newbies think it's Gospel truth. The best defense for personal safety (again) is a peaceful exit, leaving your ego slightly bruised, but your body in one piece.

Edit: BTW, the pictures of the knife wounds on Snopes were probably done with a garden variety knife. Below is a picture of a working sailor's knife I polished to a mirror edge. I would suggest you stay away from drunken sailors.

[Rangefinder]

The blade guys among us would be laughing, "Hey, the deceased brought a gun to a knife fight!"

I tend to agree. With what I can now call decades (as in more than one now) of various blade training ranging from 2-inch toad stickers up to 6-foot greatswords and everything in between, I'll guarantee that even the smallest blade in experienced hands is a far greater danger than a handgun in inexperienced hands. Don't underestimate the serious of the matter. The wounds in snopes are superficial. They probably took over a thousand stitches inside and out to reconnect everything, but the guy is lucky whoever held that knife was a hack-n-slash idiot. One cut with a sharp blade by someone who knows what they're doing will provide a very fast, very lethal outcome. The human body has quite a few very large blood vessels both very close to the surface, and easily reachable with even an x-acto knife---and those bleed out faster than you could rush one verse from the alphabet song.

But in light of the OP... That's fantastic! LMAO!!

[The Tourist]

Rangefinder, I believe that the members of TFL should help each other with info, as well as outlining misinformation. When you think about urban legends, jokes and old wives tales it's amazing more people aren't injured from flat-out stupidity.

About two months ago I was sharpening a caping knife. (That's an extremely sharp knife a hunter or his outfitter uses to prepare a trophy game head for a taxidermist.) Just as the knife was finished being polished, it slipped from my hand, did a perfect 180 degree flip and landed stuck straight into the top of my left foot.

Before I could take a cloth, bend over and apply pressure I was already standing in a pool of blood.

Now, I got safely to our local ER and was carefully checked over by a trauma doc. I did not hit anything like a major artery or tendon. Dumb luck, a small scar and a funny story.

But that's just one small poke. Even in a drunken rage, if I grabbed ahold of your jacket and started flailing away at you before you could be rescued, there's a good chance you would already be bleeding out.

Peruse any knife forum and find their 'sharpening' area. To knife knuts sharpening is akin to our reloading. Lots of hobbyists are doing it, many of them are utilizing Japanese waterstones, the kind used in polishing Japanese kitchen knives.

Newer techniques are producing ridiculously toasty edges. Joke around and have fun, but this is an area where real serious injury, perhaps permanent, can be inflicted with a flip of a blade.

Edit: Oh, and read up on the "21-Foot Rule."

[cloud8a]

I would not dispute the speed and destruction a sharp blade can cause flesh.

But if you had your choice, would you rather take three blade slices to the chest or three .45 ACP rounds to the chest. You could even lower the caliber to .22.

Those Snope pictures are horrific, but the joke is out there for a reason. In war I am not going to charge a man that has a gun and me a knife. Sorry, but the bottom line is that he is going to come out on top. Even if that means he dies at a later time than I do.

The guy taking a knife to a gun fight and winning that fight will always be that rare exception to the rule. That does not mean as a gun owner you should not train and be prepared for it. It just means do not be over confident in your specially sharpened blade.

[AcridSaint]

Change those to stabs and might be inclined to take the 45. Seriously, a knife is a scary weapon, I agree with all of the cautions that have been made. The problem with people wielding knives is that you don't have to be versed in function or accuracy, you just have to get close enough to slash and stab. If you don't buy it, get someone who knows nothing about knife work and give them a practice blade and stand a few feet apart then see if they can mortally wound you before you can draw your weapon - having done a bit of knife work I can tell you that just about anyone can grab a blade and put a serious hurt on you in a hurry.

Additionally, in my limited experience, folks that pull out knives seem much more willing to use them. Lots of people still think that just showing you a gun is going to win a fight. I think the gun owner showed remarkable restraint if the knife was turned on him. Anyone who turns a knife on me is in for the fight of their lives, I'm scared to death of them.

[Doc Intrepid]

I wouldn't want to be stabbed, slashed, OR shot! (IMO its a pointless debate!)

Your (collective) warnings about knife lethality are well-taken...as a former law enforcement trainer I've seen (photographic) evidence of the threat level posed by anyone in the blade culture.

(I probably should have used a smiley in my post above!)

...as an aside, while you always assume that the person holding a weapon on you knows how to use it, I suspect that there are as many inexperienced wielders of knives as there are inexperienced wielders of handguns out there. Clearly thats not the way to respond, but I doubt that all of them have the same training and experience as some of the posters in this thread...

On the other hand, we won't be discussing pedigree if any of them threaten me with a blade. As AcridSaint said above, anyone who pulls a knife on me will be regarded as immediately offering imminent death or bodily harm.

I've seen what they can do.

[The Tourist]

It is now the next morning, I posted most of my comments last night.

I am very happy that this opportunity did not descend into hyperbole about which tool is "more deadly." I know that there are many trained LEOs here who have undoubtedly seen more intense slicing wounds than the one I posted from Snopes.

More to the point, I hope this underlines the overall seriousness of "flight or fight." Pushing and shoving are one thing, but when the pistols and the long knives come out we are actually debating a possible death.

If any doubt is left, take a few bucks and go to a sushi restaurant. Ask if you can sit at the bar and watch a skilled chef prepare your dinner by skilled and deliberate slices. You'll never tell a "knife to a gunfight" joke again.

And I thank all of the cooler heads for helping underline the serious details.

[akamdg]

If any doubt is left, take a few bucks and go to a sushi restaurant. Ask if you can sit at the bar and watch a skilled chef prepare your dinner by skilled and deliberate slices. You'll never tell a "knife to a gunfight" joke again.

huh? I'm not trying to deny the lethality of knives but in reality it takes a lot more skill and strength to do with knives to be really effective than with a firearm. If you had to deal with two untrained people, one armed with a knife and one armed with a gun wouldn't you rather deal with the guy with the knife. At least with a knife armed person you can run away or block the slashes with your arms, or even pick up a chair or some object to use to defend yourself.

[KingEdward]

"don't bring a knife to a gun fight".

priceless.

too bad mastercard wasn't there filming a new commercial.

[AcridSaint]

If the knife is sharp, it does the work. There's very little strength involved in cutting motions and only a little involved in piercing under most circumstances. It does not take an expert to kill someone with a knife any more than it does a gun and it takes even less knowledge to operate.

There are too many variables to pick between them, but personally I would treat the weapons equally.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by akamdg

block the slashes with your arms

A common misconception, probably from Hollywood movies. A slash on the arm is a fatal wound in and of itself.

As stated, I had a stab wound that was less than 1/2 inch wide, and I puddled blood on the floor faster than imagined.

A slice on your arm could have you swoon--leading to death--within a minute if your heart was pumping from the exchange.

However, after a few discussions on this subject from my SIL, a Red Cross nurse, my first slash would be across your leg. No ambulance could save you.

[KingEdward]

if the first two gun shots strike a knife fighter in the chest

then his first action will probably not be slashing my leg.

[The Tourist]

This is the kind of discussion that helps no one. Who says I won't slice your leg?

In the 1984 FBI shoot-out in Miami, a bad guy continued to fire a Ruger Mini-14 for 90 seconds with what later became a fatal wound.

If you have enough time to double-tap, you have enough time to back out of the way.

[KingEdward]

never said the knife fighter would not slash my leg.

simply said it wouldn't be his FIRST action upon receiving

two .357 magnum rounds to the chest.

[AcridSaint]

I think that most people who think that knives are always at a disadvantage have not done much knife work. Most instructors will tell you that the most dangerous person with a knife is one who doesn't know anything about knife fighting. I could "show" anyone here what I mean about the knife being dangerous, but then I would just get a line about being "trained" to use it. So, I implore everyone here to try out some knife work with someone who has no experience. Just give them one objective - Kill me with the "knife". Just make sure it's a training object that won't hurt you too badly.

I'm not going to argue with anyone who chooses not to accept the gravity of a knife wielding adversary. I just hope that folks with open minds come by and get some new insight from this thread.

[KingEdward]

I saw last night two knife instructors showing their techniques
and speed and all of the methods they would use for making
quick and deadly wounds. It was amazing how fast they were.

All of this is very workable and realistic of the knife wielder is
proficient and 8-10 feet away. These guys were 3 feet apart
during their demonstrations.

But if I can keep him 12-15 feet away by moving and I've drawn
the magnum and he comes to slash, shame on me if my
profiency is poor enough that I bleed out when it's over.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Instead of the knife vs. gun mantras - how about, don't go to WalMart!

Anyway, I was involved as an expert in a case where a young stud got into with a geezer (who was high). Stud huffed and puffed and the geezer stuck a little paring knife into the stud's chest - who dropped stone cold dead with the golden puncture into the right spot.

Empirical question on whether the knife guy could have gotten to Mister Gun while jawing and drawing.

I see a fight in WalMart and the first line of defense is my set of footsies.

[espnazi]

In cqc I would tend to favor an experienced knife fighter over an experienced shooter. Why? One disadvantage a gun has is that in close quarters an assailant can get past the muzzle. A trained knife fighter like Michael Janich uses this technique he gets past either inside or outside the arm. rendering a firearm useless since he already has control over the arm and has probably cut tendons, biceps, and triceps.
A firearm would not be at such a disadvantage if it was faster to deploy.

[Old Grump]

Then the martial arts master steps up with his 6' Bo and stomps the silliness out of both knife man and gunman. Argument is silly, you use what you got and what you are best with. Most of the time most knife fighters barely have a clue, technique learned by watching movies of cowboys and Indians or convicts in prison with bowie knives or shanks dance around each other.

An amateur gunman has an advantage over the amateur knife man if he reacts quickly and shoots first. A good knife man will take the amateur gunfighter and a good man with a quarter staff or a Louisville slugger inside 10' will take both of them out.

Friend of mine got in an argument with a fellow sailor, pushed him back, got in the ready position and said, "Don't 'F' with me, I know karate." The other guy said I don't and cold cocked my friend. That happened to him twice before he realized the book he got from the back pages of a comic book did not teach Ju Jitsu, Judo or any other funny words except how to spell them.

This same guy showing off his knife fighting expertise managed to stab himself twice in the same day with his Case folder. The third time the corpsman took his knife away, threw it overboard then took him to small stores and told the clerk to not sell him any more knives. He may not have been typical in his enthusiasm but his skill level wasn't much different than the average man on the street. Over all a gun trumps even if he misses his first 12 shots, that last one is gonna hurt.