Musings on the AK- from artech(long)

artech · February 4, 2000, 11:39 AM

Let me say first, for those of you who don't know me, that I have been an AR/M16 man from the beginning. Used them in the service, got to work at Bushmaster

for a long time after I got out, I know the AR inside and out. Worked on thousands of them, from many different manufacturers, so have seen just about everything.

Here's my AK story, after one of those really complex 3(or 4?) way gun trading deals I ended up with a preban MAADI AK variant.

I wasn't looking for one, really didn't want it, but figured I could trade it off for something, anyway. Then I made a big mistake.

I went shooting.

Now, I was expecting problems. This rifle looks like it was stamped out in a muffler shop for about $1.98 in sheet metal and deburred by dragging it through the desert.

The only reason I wanted to shoot it at all was to make sure it wouldn't explode on whoever I sold it to. I truly was not expecting much.

Well, I got a lot more than I bargained for. Even though the cocking handle feels like it drags and the bolt isn't smooth in it's travel, even though the recoil spring guide is a couple pieces of wire looped together, even though the reciever has enough crap in it to warrant a trip through the car wash, the damn thing shoots.

Even though the ammo was cheap chinese surplus, even though it was 15 below zero and the rifle was left outside the whole time, even though the rifle had no lubrication and had not been cleaned(looked like it'd NEVER been cleaned), even though I fired over 500 rounds through it that trip, the damn thing shot, shot decently, and never malfunctioned once.

Now, let me say that I ain't real easy to impress when it comes to firearms, I've seen all kinds of strange things happen in my firearms career, here and overseas, and it takes a lot to make me go hmmmm....

But this thing impresses me, albeit with some trepidation. I think the trepidation comes from the fact that when I was in the Corps in the early 80's, we were up against the Soviet bloc and this was the weapon of my enemy. We had a class on them in training, learned where the safety was and how to load it, the real basics.

They never told us much about them, just that this is the weapon of your enemy, look how crappy the weapon is, you will have no problem defeating anyone armed with this junk, etc, etc.

Well, I for one am pretty happy I never had to go up against these for real.

What strikes me now is the construction, it is SO FRIGGIN SIMPLE that I almost can't believe it. I could keep this gun running practically forever with a bastard file and a ball peen hammer.

This rifle will tolerate sloppy tolerances and still work, which the AR absolutely will not do.

AR parts have to be made to some of the most critical tolerances in the gun business, some must be held to (get this) .0005" inches(yup, five ten-thousandths of an inch) or the rifle will flat out not work. There isn't one part in this AK that looks like it's even .005", let alone anything tighter. Unbelievable, at least to a manufacturing guy like me.

The extractor is HUGE compared to an AR, the firing pin looks like a wood splitting wedge. The AK only has 5 springs in the whole damn gun, versus the 20 springs in the AR, which has 5 in the A2 rear sight alone.

Accuracy was surprising for so crude a weapon, probably running around 4 MOA, which is our own current U.S. milspec for the M16A2. Service accuracy differs from commercial accuracy, if you roast your barrel with hundreds of rounds of full auto fire, your 1/2 MOA HBAR will suddenly start shooting wide as well.

I think part of the poor accuracy reputation of the AK stems from the sights being so close together, if they were more widely separated, shooting it well would surely be easier. The other part probably goes to the ammo, just by visual inspection you can see that this stuff isn't as uniform as most .223 ball ammo.

So, while I'm not converting to the Kalashnikov cult or anything like that, and I am surely not getting rid of my one-off custom built Bushmaster Dissipator AR, nonetheless I am impressed by the AK design, even in a crude rendition like this.

The mere fact that something can be so simply and poorly made and still be so utterly reliable and service accurate astounds me.

You know, I might just hang onto this one for a while after all...

------------------
My brain's a hand grenade...catch. Ice-T, OG.

The M-16 is a damn fine weapon, but your best, your most lethal and effective weapon is between your ears. Ssgt Brown, Parris Island, 3rd Bn, H co. 1984.

chmeyers · February 4, 2000, 12:22 PM

Like I stated in a similar thread below, I have to Maadis and no complaints.

Oleg Volk · February 4, 2000, 01:11 PM

Same reaction here. BTW, the "less than smooth" bolt feeling comes from it dragging on the hammer internally. Accuracy just about doubled when I replaced the rear v-notch with an aperture. Great very robust gun. Magazines are heavy but TOUGH and I like the ability to put pressure on the bolt to unlock it in case of a stuck casing.

I'd pick a full-auto AKMS over an M16 for self-defense (the AKs I fired did not climb much on full auto, certainly much less than MP5) because of the reliability. In all fairness, my HBAR has been equally or more reliable (AK did not like recoil buffer I had in it) but I doubt that the AR would survive much abuse and lack of cleaning.

Besides, it is nice to know tha arms of probably opposition. I learned MP5, 92fs and S&W autoloaders on that principle. Starting on pump shotguns now...

. · February 4, 2000, 01:26 PM

At one time in the long distant past, I had an early-import MAADI AKM-S, VALMET M62S and early Colt HBAR. The VALMET was everything the MAADI was, plus it was more accurate. With Norma & GI ammo, the M62S would routinely print 1.5MOA compared to 3.5MOA for the AKM-S.

Ultimately, I came across a deal too good to pass up, so the MAADI went to a RI State Trooper that had been badgering (pun) me for years to sell it to him; and I wound up with some other gun that I couldn't live another week without... The Trooper now has a collectible that was manufactured in Egypt on the original Soviet installed equipment.

dZ · February 4, 2000, 05:00 PM

this is why in addition to my AR i bought a .308 vepr
its made in Russia and is finished pretty nicely. I figured the design was so refined that i needed one for the safe. http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/...vepr/vepr.html
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/...vepr/index.htm

dZ

Nukem · February 4, 2000, 05:09 PM

Glad you like yours artech.
I've got a pre-ban Polytech Legend (milled) and can't for the life of me figure out what I was thinking of when I bought it. I have to agree with you about it's reliability.
It sits in the safe most of the time while the ARs and the HK get all the exercise.

PADDY · February 4, 2000, 07:00 PM

I own a bulgarian slr-95 shoots 2.5 inch groups at 100 and ive got 10,000 rounds put through it, not ever not once has it jammed.I put it through a trial where I fired 2500 rounds without a cleaning kept on kickin even when I accidently droped a chair leg full of sand in the reciever at the range and had no cleaning gear with me.Kept shooting no prob, most reliable rifle in the world period.And it was introduced in 1947 and still is being used all over the world.But man my garand comes close.Gotta love the M1.

spleenandideal · February 4, 2000, 11:04 PM

Yeah, I've always been an AR kinda guy for a while, although I had an old Romanian AK for the longest time....it collected dust for a while when the AR bug caught me. However, I recently purchased a Preban PolyTech AK, and I fell head over heels in love with the whole sloppy mess! Now all my dreams are of AKs...there is a simple beauty in firing such a rudimentary weapon. Classic minimalist design, remeniscent of M-series Leica cameras or Ruger MkII pistols. I'm glad you're not a complete AR15 snob, artech. I know how you feel.

Destructo6 · February 5, 2000, 12:45 AM

Yes, I too have fallen in love with Russian robust simplicity. My AK and Makarov go bang every time I pull the trigger and have never failed, even in freezing rain and hail. I've not found my Chinese AK wanting for accuracy during desert hare hunts. Someday I will own the best of both NATO and Com-Bloc worlds, the Valmet M-76 in .223.

Ezeckial · February 5, 2000, 11:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by artech:
Here's my AK story, after one of those really complex 3(or 4?) way gun trading deals I ended up with a preban MAADI AK variant. I wasn't looking for one, really didn't want it, but figured I could trade it off for something, anyway. Then I made a big mistake.

I went shooting.

[/quote]

I owned a MAK 90. Cheap...crude..but reliable as all get out!
If you can find a FEG SA-85 (Hungarian AK), buy it!!! (or e-mail me, and I'll buy it!)

The SA-85 is a well built, finely finished AK. In fact, for you NRA guys, the SA-85 was what was advertised as the "commemorative" AK-47 in American Rifleman a few years ago.

I know there's been American "built" AK's manufactured (don't know if any are still in business), but I am surprised that no one has bought the tooling from the Russians to manufacture these rifles in the U.S.

[This message has been edited by Ezeckial (edited February 05, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Ezeckial (edited February 05, 2000).]

Oleg Volk · February 5, 2000, 11:58 AM

Saw and fired a Hungarian 10-round "former AK" and liked it. Very nice trigger, passable sights. The magazines caught my attention. No heavier than the old ribbed 5-rounders, the looked and felt like beefed-up Mec-gars, only better quality and heavier metal. Had I not known that the gun was designed for thirties, I wouldn't have complained. Wish someone produced high qiality magazines like that for a Mini14 or, better yet, 30-06 Browning which currently takes 10 rounds. Then again, I could just use a Vepr.

Just wonder why high-tech US manufacturers can't make a high quality ten-round magazine which, though slightly heavier than aluminum mags, is tought and reliable?

February 4, 2000, 11:39 AM	#1
artech Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 1999 Location: Southern Maine, Bushmaster Country Posts: 275	Let me say first, for those of you who don't know me, that I have been an AR/M16 man from the beginning. Used them in the service, got to work at Bushmaster for a long time after I got out, I know the AR inside and out. Worked on thousands of them, from many different manufacturers, so have seen just about everything. Here's my AK story, after one of those really complex 3(or 4?) way gun trading deals I ended up with a preban MAADI AK variant. I wasn't looking for one, really didn't want it, but figured I could trade it off for something, anyway. Then I made a big mistake. I went shooting. Now, I was expecting problems. This rifle looks like it was stamped out in a muffler shop for about $1.98 in sheet metal and deburred by dragging it through the desert. The only reason I wanted to shoot it at all was to make sure it wouldn't explode on whoever I sold it to. I truly was not expecting much. Well, I got a lot more than I bargained for. Even though the cocking handle feels like it drags and the bolt isn't smooth in it's travel, even though the recoil spring guide is a couple pieces of wire looped together, even though the reciever has enough crap in it to warrant a trip through the car wash, the damn thing shoots. Even though the ammo was cheap chinese surplus, even though it was 15 below zero and the rifle was left outside the whole time, even though the rifle had no lubrication and had not been cleaned(looked like it'd NEVER been cleaned), even though I fired over 500 rounds through it that trip, the damn thing shot, shot decently, and never malfunctioned once. Now, let me say that I ain't real easy to impress when it comes to firearms, I've seen all kinds of strange things happen in my firearms career, here and overseas, and it takes a lot to make me go hmmmm.... But this thing impresses me, albeit with some trepidation. I think the trepidation comes from the fact that when I was in the Corps in the early 80's, we were up against the Soviet bloc and this was the weapon of my enemy. We had a class on them in training, learned where the safety was and how to load it, the real basics. They never told us much about them, just that this is the weapon of your enemy, look how crappy the weapon is, you will have no problem defeating anyone armed with this junk, etc, etc. Well, I for one am pretty happy I never had to go up against these for real. What strikes me now is the construction, it is SO FRIGGIN SIMPLE that I almost can't believe it. I could keep this gun running practically forever with a bastard file and a ball peen hammer. This rifle will tolerate sloppy tolerances and still work, which the AR absolutely will not do. AR parts have to be made to some of the most critical tolerances in the gun business, some must be held to (get this) .0005" inches(yup, five ten-thousandths of an inch) or the rifle will flat out not work. There isn't one part in this AK that looks like it's even .005", let alone anything tighter. Unbelievable, at least to a manufacturing guy like me. The extractor is HUGE compared to an AR, the firing pin looks like a wood splitting wedge. The AK only has 5 springs in the whole damn gun, versus the 20 springs in the AR, which has 5 in the A2 rear sight alone. Accuracy was surprising for so crude a weapon, probably running around 4 MOA, which is our own current U.S. milspec for the M16A2. Service accuracy differs from commercial accuracy, if you roast your barrel with hundreds of rounds of full auto fire, your 1/2 MOA HBAR will suddenly start shooting wide as well. I think part of the poor accuracy reputation of the AK stems from the sights being so close together, if they were more widely separated, shooting it well would surely be easier. The other part probably goes to the ammo, just by visual inspection you can see that this stuff isn't as uniform as most .223 ball ammo. So, while I'm not converting to the Kalashnikov cult or anything like that, and I am surely not getting rid of my one-off custom built Bushmaster Dissipator AR, nonetheless I am impressed by the AK design, even in a crude rendition like this. The mere fact that something can be so simply and poorly made and still be so utterly reliable and service accurate astounds me. You know, I might just hang onto this one for a while after all... ------------------ My brain's a hand grenade...catch. Ice-T, OG. The M-16 is a damn fine weapon, but your best, your most lethal and effective weapon is between your ears. Ssgt Brown, Parris Island, 3rd Bn, H co. 1984.

February 4, 2000, 12:22 PM	#2
chmeyers Member Join Date: November 30, 1999 Location: Rock Island, IL Posts: 75	Like I stated in a similar thread below, I have to Maadis and no complaints.

February 4, 2000, 01:11 PM	#3
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	Same reaction here. BTW, the "less than smooth" bolt feeling comes from it dragging on the hammer internally. Accuracy just about doubled when I replaced the rear v-notch with an aperture. Great very robust gun. Magazines are heavy but TOUGH and I like the ability to put pressure on the bolt to unlock it in case of a stuck casing. I'd pick a full-auto AKMS over an M16 for self-defense (the AKs I fired did not climb much on full auto, certainly much less than MP5) because of the reliability. In all fairness, my HBAR has been equally or more reliable (AK did not like recoil buffer I had in it) but I doubt that the AR would survive much abuse and lack of cleaning. Besides, it is nice to know tha arms of probably opposition. I learned MP5, 92fs and S&W autoloaders on that principle. Starting on pump shotguns now...

February 4, 2000, 01:26 PM	#4
. Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: My wife's house... Posts: 2,659	At one time in the long distant past, I had an early-import MAADI AKM-S, VALMET M62S and early Colt HBAR. The VALMET was everything the MAADI was, plus it was more accurate. With Norma & GI ammo, the M62S would routinely print 1.5MOA compared to 3.5MOA for the AKM-S. Ultimately, I came across a deal too good to pass up, so the MAADI went to a RI State Trooper that had been badgering (pun) me for years to sell it to him; and I wound up with some other gun that I couldn't live another week without... The Trooper now has a collectible that was manufactured in Egypt on the original Soviet installed equipment.

February 4, 2000, 05:00 PM	#5
dZ Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: Exiled, Fetid Swamp, DC Posts: 7,548	this is why in addition to my AR i bought a .308 vepr its made in Russia and is finished pretty nicely. I figured the design was so refined that i needed one for the safe. http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/...vepr/vepr.html http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/...vepr/index.htm dZ

February 4, 2000, 05:09 PM	#6
Nukem Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2000 Posts: 709	Glad you like yours artech. I've got a pre-ban Polytech Legend (milled) and can't for the life of me figure out what I was thinking of when I bought it. I have to agree with you about it's reliability. It sits in the safe most of the time while the ARs and the HK get all the exercise.

February 4, 2000, 07:00 PM	#7
PADDY Junior Member Join Date: January 30, 2000 Posts: 5	I own a bulgarian slr-95 shoots 2.5 inch groups at 100 and ive got 10,000 rounds put through it, not ever not once has it jammed.I put it through a trial where I fired 2500 rounds without a cleaning kept on kickin even when I accidently droped a chair leg full of sand in the reciever at the range and had no cleaning gear with me.Kept shooting no prob, most reliable rifle in the world period.And it was introduced in 1947 and still is being used all over the world.But man my garand comes close.Gotta love the M1.

February 4, 2000, 11:04 PM	#8
spleenandideal Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 1998 Location: I-77, USA Posts: 522	Yeah, I've always been an AR kinda guy for a while, although I had an old Romanian AK for the longest time....it collected dust for a while when the AR bug caught me. However, I recently purchased a Preban PolyTech AK, and I fell head over heels in love with the whole sloppy mess! Now all my dreams are of AKs...there is a simple beauty in firing such a rudimentary weapon. Classic minimalist design, remeniscent of M-series Leica cameras or Ruger MkII pistols. I'm glad you're not a complete AR15 snob, artech. I know how you feel.

February 5, 2000, 12:45 AM	#9
Destructo6 Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 1999 Location: Nogales, AZ USA Posts: 4,000	Yes, I too have fallen in love with Russian robust simplicity. My AK and Makarov go bang every time I pull the trigger and have never failed, even in freezing rain and hail. I've not found my Chinese AK wanting for accuracy during desert hare hunts. Someday I will own the best of both NATO and Com-Bloc worlds, the Valmet M-76 in .223.

February 5, 2000, 11:08 AM	#10
Ezeckial Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2000 Location: Windsor. PA, USA Posts: 394	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by artech: Here's my AK story, after one of those really complex 3(or 4?) way gun trading deals I ended up with a preban MAADI AK variant. I wasn't looking for one, really didn't want it, but figured I could trade it off for something, anyway. Then I made a big mistake. I went shooting. [/quote] I owned a MAK 90. Cheap...crude..but reliable as all get out! If you can find a FEG SA-85 (Hungarian AK), buy it!!! (or e-mail me, and I'll buy it!) The SA-85 is a well built, finely finished AK. In fact, for you NRA guys, the SA-85 was what was advertised as the "commemorative" AK-47 in American Rifleman a few years ago. I know there's been American "built" AK's manufactured (don't know if any are still in business), but I am surprised that no one has bought the tooling from the Russians to manufacture these rifles in the U.S. [This message has been edited by Ezeckial (edited February 05, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Ezeckial (edited February 05, 2000).]

February 5, 2000, 11:58 AM	#11
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	Saw and fired a Hungarian 10-round "former AK" and liked it. Very nice trigger, passable sights. The magazines caught my attention. No heavier than the old ribbed 5-rounders, the looked and felt like beefed-up Mec-gars, only better quality and heavier metal. Had I not known that the gun was designed for thirties, I wouldn't have complained. Wish someone produced high qiality magazines like that for a Mini14 or, better yet, 30-06 Browning which currently takes 10 rounds. Then again, I could just use a Vepr. Just wonder why high-tech US manufacturers can't make a high quality ten-round magazine which, though slightly heavier than aluminum mags, is tought and reliable?