Best tactics for safety in a mob.

[bamboo spear]

If it's one thing I've learned from youtube, the news and reality police shows, it's to avoid mobs and never take part in any large demonstration moving down the street. It's just trouble waiting to happen.

[Wildalaska]

An exercise in posturing?

Maybe for some but that certainly wasn't my intent.

Never said it was...I used the term "could" and you recognize of course that the mere existence of the scenario gives rise to the thumpin...

Followup on Tailgators comment..Open carry is a bad idea where you may be subjected to mobs gone wild...

So what happens when the Open Carry in Starbucks crowd are ordering Breves and out of the blue, the riot starts

Tactically unsound, neh?

Wildmybuddyjustboughta9.2x62barrelforhisBlaseranditissocoolAlaska ™

[Mr. James]

Whatever a Breve is.

Not uncool at all. Just turn the page, sip the cup, let the street theatre run its course . . . no problems, mon.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Let's all have a coffee and a 7 layer bar!

That is an interesting question, though - about the risk of open carry when things go publicly and widely awry.

I could see the law doing you in. I could see the angry mob thinking you are law and doing you in. I'm not much on the deterrence aspect if the mob is really out for evil. As I said before, there are plenty of cases of mobs taken on armed individuals.

I think also we have moved beyond the 'open fire' response to discuss real options.

I might, if I open carried (which I won't), get the gun under concealment and ditch the holster. You could always stick the gun in your pants, under your shirt in the emergency.

[SiNNiK]

To those who said "ask mr officer how to get out", having been in the middle of thousands and thousands of people who abruptly burst out cheering a UT touchdown, you can't hear anything. Downtown acoustics are different than in the stadium. It's all one big roar. I'd be afraid of being perceived as "yelling at mr officer unintelligibly" and get bonked on the head with a baton.

Can't really avoid the mobs for me, I'd have to call in every time there was a home game, and I'm sure that wouldn't go over well.

Fortunately for me, UT fans have a habit of celebrating victories without having to burn our city to the ground.

[B. Lahey]

I was in downtown Chicago when the protests kicked off at the start of the (new) Iraq war. It was mostly hippies obstructing traffic (great idea, that'll win over tons of people to your cause), but there was some minor unrest. Some windows broken, trashcans tossed, and the like. Chicago cops are somewhat notorious for their dislike of such things so there were some efforts at crowd control.

I just hung back in the lobby of one of my school's buildings, prepared to hotfoot it out the back into the alley if objects or gas came flying into the area. When I saw a break in the crowd I sprinted to the closest El station and got the heck out of there.

But that was back when my spine and both knees worked. If the same thing happened today I would probably hunker down and wait it out. I am no longer as swift.

[alloy]

You could include things like this and the Katrina evacuation, where there might be almost no way to avoid the crowd.....into this mob scenario. Evidently an evacuation, jammed highways etc...can be worse than the event.

Five months after the storm, it appeared that Rita contributed to the deaths of 119 people, 113 of those in Texas. The important point for this article is that only six of those 113 deaths are “directly” attributed to the storm (wind, water, surge); the other 107 deaths were caused “indirectly,” primarily by activities (e.g., accidents) related to the evacuation process. Rita also caused an estimated $9.4 billion in damage, making it the ninth costliest storm in U.S. history.

*from: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1781922/

[markj]

carry a can of Progresso Split Peas soup

Do they make a holster for this?

When I lived in Chicago in 1970 they had a few riots. We would get to a high place and watch them go at it till the police came and broke heads. The riot would disperse after the batons started swinging. Cheap entertainment.

Living where I now do and living the life I live, no fear of rioters, but them steers can get mighty rowdy at times.

[JustDreadful]

E&E is without doubt the first choice. That said, if I ever am caught in a mob I hope I'm armed. A gun might have done Reginald Denny quite a bit of good. (And yes, Denny had a big ol' truck to use, but that particular mob might just as easily have attacked someone considerably more truckless.)

[Dre_sa]

I think if I were to 'happen upon a mob', I would do a 180 and go back the way I came. They are not where you came from, they are where you are going.

I'm not saying retreat or make a strategic withdrawl, I'm merely suggesting advancing in the other direction...

If my car were on the other side, I'd wait for it all to stop before I go near it. And even if its been vandalized, that's what insurance is for. The priority would be to get away from the mob, as far as is necessary. If the mob looks like it wont be moving away from the area your car is in, call a taxi, that's what cellphones are for. you can always come back to it later.

If you're missing an appointment, I'm sure the other party would understand...

[Silverado]

I'm older these days and was old enough back in the late '90s that when the Avs and Broncos won championships, I enjoyed the games at home rather than join the tens of thousands in the LoDo bars down in Denver. It wasn't hard for me figure out the possible outcomes down there if the home-town team prevailed. Even a joyous crowd when fueled by alcohol, can become ugly, turning over police cars, setting fires, etc. Nice the home team won, but the aftermath was not exactly a poster moment for Denver's civic pride. I wouldn't think you'd need a crystal ball or deck of tarot cards to predict what could happen in LoDo those nights, and why would you carry there if you were inclined to experience the throng first hand? Emotion, alcohol, crowd, gun? Bad formula. It is difficult to imagine being caught in a mob situation with no warning in this country.

For the first time in my life, I recently attended a politically rally at the Capitol down in Denver to protest, well, I won't say since this is a forum on guns, not politics. My dad wanted to come with me, his first rally too! I left my gun in the truck where we parked- I could not think of what good it would do me where we were going, and more bad things that could happen if I was carrying in a mob, even tho' I have a permit.

It was supposed to be a peaceful demonstration and for the most part it was, save for a very few people from the opposing view, who I guess, showed up just trying to agitate things. Although they shouted obsenities and even pushed a few people on the edges, they shortly ran out of steam when the crowd mostly ignored them. After the rally dispursed, dad and I lingered and he mentioned he had never seen the inside of the Capitol even though he'd lived in Colorado for more than 40 years. We went to the entrance and of course, there were metal detectors, guards etc. Glad just for that I didn't have the gun and dad and I were able to spend an hour together in there looking around. 'Course when we got back to the truck I put my rig back on my hip and felt normal again when we went to lunch.

[ZeSpectre]

Some people just aren't getting it.

Before anyone else comments, maybe you should try to READ and UNDERSTAND the original post.

If you can avoid the mob then there is no issue and no reason to comment so if "avoid the mob" is your answer you aren't paying attention to the question.

What CAN and DOES happen (I know it happened to me) is that sometimes you can wind up in the middle of something before you realize what is happening.

Maybe due to "condition white", maybe due to other circumstances (like mine where the mob is coming down the street and the police cordon is closing and you discover that you are "rock and a hard place" between them). The reason (and recriminations for being in that situation) aren't the important point of the question.

The question is, you are caught in the mob, it has already happened....now what?

So far the ideas that seem the best are.
-Do your best to appear non-threatening (to everyone)
-If you are armed, go stealth and make sure your firearm is not visible
-Bunker-down and find some object to take shelter in/behind
-If no object or shelter is immediately available, move diagonally to the flow of the crowd and "break out" of the undertow if possible.

[Buzzcook]

To those who said "ask mr officer how to get out", having been in the middle of thousands and thousands of people who abruptly burst out cheering a UT touchdown, you can't hear anything. Downtown acoustics are different than in the stadium. It's all one big roar. I'd be afraid of being perceived as "yelling at mr officer unintelligibly" and get bonked on the head with a baton.

If the noise is so loud that you can't be heard from inches away, then how did you "happen" to be stuck between the rioters and the police line?

SiNNiK, you are stretching the scenario a bit.

ZeSpectre, you got out of a situation by following my advice number two, "ask officer friendly". Why go further?
If you personally are not the object of focus for the mob or the police then just walk away. It works.

[ZeSpectre]

ZeSpectre, you got out of a situation by following my advice number two, "ask officer friendly". Why go further?

Because, at the time, I had no "plan B". If it had been "Officer not-so-friendly"...it would have been ugly (as it was for the crowd a few minutes later).

So, knowing that I can't think of everything myself and knowing that these things happen, I thought I'd throw the question out to the group and see what others came up with.

[markj]

A gun might have done Reginald Denny quite a bit of good.

If he had locked the doors of that truck........

The question is, you are caught in the mob, it has already happened....now what?

Blazing Saddles, the new sheriff is introduced to the townsfolk scene. I would do that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upvZdVK913I

[9megameter]

I've been caught in a similar situation. Unfortunately the riot in question was taking place on the street in front of my apartment. Fortunately the answer was pretty simple - go back inside, lock the door, and wait for it to blow over

[Glenn Dee]

Having been on both sides of a civil disturbance... I'd like to re-add my two dollars and fifty cents.

First of all... Police reality shows have absoloutly nothing to do with reality.

As a demonstator in the 60's (before I enlisted) I participated in a few marches/protests. I'd like to say that my intentions were honorable... In truth it was a great way to pick up chicks. Once the demonstration reached the point that I didnt want to play anymore. They were doing things I refused to do. So I got out of it by demonstrating slower than everyone else... Until the demonstration passed me by... and I slowed down even more... Until I passed a subway entrance, hopped on the train and went home, and watched it on TV.

As a police officer I have held the line in one major ( a blackout) Riot, several medium sized riots, and hundreds of mini riots. The best thing for a civilian to do is get as far away as possible from the trouble. Handguns or any other firearm has absoloutly no place in a riot/demonstration. If anything a firearm would probably make everything worse. There are no officer friendly's in a riot.

[Balog]

Being caught in a riot presumes a major failure of either situational awareness (walking into one in such a way you can't get out) or discretion (joining a big riot happy crowd). But, I'm not perfect and neither are you so let's think about what we can do.

First, cops are not your friend in an active riot situation. Where ever the cops are, move away from them. Your heart may be pure as the driven snow but they have no way to discern that.

Second, I know my building responds to riots by locking every entry point down. Ducking into a building to get out of the mob is a good idea, but it might not be possible.

A question for those who have studied it more than I. it seems that in a riot most violence occurs either rioters v. cops or looters v. property owners. So if you're in the crowd but away from active police confrontations or looting, one should be reasonably safe as you work your way to the edge and out, right?

[Cremon]

Originally Posted by SiNNik

I'd be afraid of being perceived as "yelling at mr officer unintelligibly" and get bonked on the head with a baton.

Then you would have waited WAAAAY too long to look for an escape. The second I see the crowd, I am heading away toward the cops if I can't get out another way. If the crowd is THAT close to where the policeman right in front of you can't hear what you are saying, you let your curiosity get the better of you to see what was going on and waited too long to get out of there.

[sakeneko]

I don't like crowds and noise, so my experience with mobs is largely limited to human and civil rights related demonstrations. I also had one notably scary experience traveling through Yugoslavia in spring of 1991 just as it was breaking up into several unfriendly pieces. :/ All of this happened before I bought my first gun a year ago.

My instincts tell me that Glenn and WildAlaska (waving) have the right idea, though. Not all crowds are mobs, not even all noisy crowds, but they can turn into mobs within seconds if the right, or wrong, thing happens. Mobs also don't behave or react like individuals do; often members of a mob act with little or no concern for their personal safety and show little ability to assess threats realistically. Clear thinking is *not* part of the mob experience. This is true whether you're with a crowd of trade union activists protesting work conditions in a West Virginia coal mine and out for blood, or with a crowd of mostly-hippie peace activists.

I open carry from time to time. I wouldn't if I were going to join or even observe a demonstration, however. I might carry concealed. And, despite the fact that I carry almost any time I leave home, I might just leave the gun behind entirely and rely on my wits, with pepper spray as a backup. That's what I've done since college, and it hasn't failed me yet.

I also wouldn't open carry into most large crowds, just in case the crowd should suddenly go through the phase change that results in them becoming a mob. :/ There are rights, and then there is the sense that the good God gave to a *rock* not to get yourself shot or stampeded.

[freakintoguns]

i was unfortunatly in LA when the Lakers won a championship and people were flipping cop cars and burning cars and all kinds of other crap, i simply walked away. a LAPD officer stopped me, i told him i dont like B-ball and was trying to get back to my hotel and he let me go. also been at Boxing matches where the judging was a lot less then honesty and caused roiting by the crowd. just got up and went the other way. in those kind of situations i tend to get away and watch my surroundings. if i have to react to a threat i will, be it a fight or flight reaction. and seeing as imma Duke fan not a terps fan i wouldnt have been in that mob of turtle lovers!

[tacticalj]

gas the crowd and then let them disperse on their own. Why send officers into an unruly crowd if you don't have to? Of course there are times when you have to. From an LEO stand point anyways.

If I was caught up in one as a civilian. Move away as fast as possible. You only got to out run the slower people. Seriously though, it's situational awareness. An unruly crowd would normally be loud and you should probably be able to hear them for a ways off. I have never been in one, so no personal experience there, as far as a riot. However, a large crowd can also run you over just as easily! Thats a tough one. Slip away ASAP

[Blue Steel]

What CAN and DOES happen (I know it happened to me) is that sometimes you can wind up in the middle of something before you realize what is happening.

This may be true, especially in a very large, spontaneous event. One situation that I can imagine would be that you are in a location that is caught up in the middle of the riot, like being in a restaurant in south-central on the day the Rodney King verdict came out. But you can mitigate your chances of being caught up if you exercise awareness and common sense. Riots don't just explode from nothingness. If you are at a sporting event and the crowd is starting to spiral out of control, leave. If they crowd is leaving, stay where you are. Avoid large gatherings that have explosive potential, and if you see a large demonstration, take a detour.

Maybe due to "condition white", maybe due to other circumstances (like mine where the mob is coming down the street and the police cordon is closing and you discover that you are "rock and a hard place" between them). The reason (and recriminations for being in that situation) aren't the important point of the question.

The most important thing is to express to people the power of awareness and decision making. Where did you come from that you were instantly trapped between advancing mob and police cordon? At some point before you were trapped was there not an about-face moment? I think you might explain exactly what happened in enough detail for us to understand what you might have done differently to avoid this situation.

The question is, you are caught in the mob, it has already happened....now what?

So far the ideas that seem the best are.
-Do your best to appear non-threatening (to everyone)
-If you are armed, go stealth and make sure your firearm is not visible
-Bunker-down and find some object to take shelter in/behind
-If no object or shelter is immediately available, move diagonally to the flow of the crowd and "break out" of the undertow if possible.

I agree these are the best ideas if you were suddenly thrust into a situation like this somehow. If you're swept up on a street, and can do nothing else, just try to make your way to wall and pin yourself against it. Arms up, palms out in the universal surrender sign.

[Blue Steel]

In the OP, the college students quoted in the article were crying about the police response. What sucks is that the police are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Mob mentality builds and boils over, out of control. The best way to stop this come down on the mob like a ton of bricks, overwhelming their resistance. For this, the police are criticized for being over reactive.

Now, consider if the police simply held a perimeter, constantly relaxing that perimeter against the movement of the crowd. The mob would eventually exhaust itself, but after causing how much damage? How many injuries, how much property damage? How much criticism would the police suffer for failing to protect, for failing to respond?

[ZeSpectre]

Where did you come from that you were instantly trapped between advancing mob and police cordon?

Okay I'll try and give you a visual. Remember, it's noisy lunch rush hour in DC with a lot of people on the street already.

I (green line and arrow) left a favorite resturant and began walking NE up the ave to get back to work. When I was about 3/4 of the way up the block the two protest groups (red arrows) came from N and S and merged to march SW towards me. I turned around to walk away and the advancing police cordon had already moved NE past the yellow line, effectively blocking me from just going back the way I came.