Brass shotshells from RMC arrived.

[DG45]

I want to let several people on the forum know that I received my order of 10 lathe-turned brass 12 Guage 2 5/8 inch shotshells from Rocky Mountain Cartridge Company last week. They took a long time to get here -. I ordered them sometime around the first of the year as I recall, but now that they're here, I'm very pleased with the product. They were quite expensive by my standards ($65 for 10 shotshells) but they are high quality and should last anybody a lifetime - certainly they will outlast me, as little as I shoot these days.

Now I need some 209 shotshell primers for them. Several sites are selling Winchester 209 shotshell primers on the internet for about $35 to $40 or so per 1,000, plus shipping. (I'm not sure, but there may also be a hazardous shipment fee in addition to the freight.) I'd like to buy in much smaller quanties than that and buy locally if thats possible. Right now I just have these 10 shotshells for loading with black powder substitute. (I have about 90paper hulls left too but they already have primers.) I probably won't shoot more than 100 shots a year out of these brass hulls so I obviously don't need 1,000 primers. Does anyone know if some manufacturer packages these in small quantities?

[l98ster]

just out of curiosity, what is the benefit of brass hulls and how do you reload them??

-george

[briandg]

In some cases, antique arms don't have chambers cut long enough to allow crimped shell to open up.

[Clark500]

My local Wal-Mart has always had a small supply of CCI 209s, even through the current drought of ammo & reloading supplies. They rarely have anything else, but they always have 209s. I think they are somewhere between 4-5 bucks a hundred.

[darkgael]

Congrats on your purchase. I picked up ten of them a couple of years ago - they took a long time to come. Your description is a good one - I will very probably be able to leave these to my kids or my grandkids. Pricey but worth it.
One of the very neat things about the RMC cases is that they are "true to gauge" - you can actually use 12 gauge components to assemble loads (as opposed the the 11 ga. wads that are needed on the drawn brass hulls that are more common).
In addition, you can load the RMC hulls with smokeless powders. I do that - low pressure shotshells - for an old Parker that I hunt with.
Pete

how do you reload them?

It depends. It depends on whether you are using RMC hulls which are lathe turned and will accept 12ga components or are using drawn brass hulls which have an interior diameter larger than 12 ga. You must use 11 gauge fiber wads and cards . - there are no modern plastic wads in 11 ga..
The drawn brass hulls are virtually always primed with large pistol primers. The RMC hulls are primed with 209 shotshell primers.
Because modern components can be used the RMC hulls can be loaded like any normal shotshell - with the exception that there is no crimp to close. Metal shotshells are closed by seating a one gauge larger overshot card on the shot charge and then gluing it in (I use Duco cement).
A note - if you should want to use the RMC hulls to shoot black powder loads, you should buy fiber wads and cards and assemble a traditional wad column - BPI and Circle Fly both sell true 12 ga. components. You need to do this and not use modern plastic wads 1) they are too long for the large volume BP loads and 2) BP is not kind to plastic - it melts and it melts in your barrel.
P

[grubbylabs]

I pay about 3.00 per 100 around here. Cabela's, Sportsman's and I am sure there are a bunch of places that sell them. If you only want to buy 100 at a time go to your local gun shop.

[DG45]

Hey, 198ster. You asked a good question. Here are the answers I can think of right now.

1. Good choice for blackpowder loads.

2. Reloadable innumerable times.

3. Authentic (looking) for cowboy events.

4. Authentic (feeling) retro-vintage type shooting experience.

5. They look waycool.

Actually I'm going to use mine for blackpowder (actually Triple 7) loads to shoot in an old single-barrel Forehand shotgun manufactured c. 1896. I'm going to use it go bird hunting like my grandaddy (b. 1876 - d. 1960) did. I even bought a fedora hat for the occasion.

[DG45]

198ster, Here's how I plan to load (and reload) them.

http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/page10.html

[FrankenMauser]

I don't know of any manufacturer that doesn't package their primers in a way to allows single-tray sales (100 primers).

They all come in "Bricks" of 1,000 - but each tray is individually labeled in the 'bricks' destined for retail sale.

The reason you can't find smaller quantities online, is cost effectiveness. Very few people, in their right mind, are willing to pay a $25-40 Haz-Mat fee (you will have to pay it), plus shipping, to have a $4 tray of primers shipped to them. ~$39-54 for 100 primers is insanity.

-- I can understand why some people might be willing to do it, though. Your situation, for example: If you were far enough from a "local" reloading supplier that the cost of gas would exceed the cost of the Haz-Mat fee, and you really were going to use less than 200 primers in your life... it's probably a justifiable cost (still likely hard to swallow). --

[l98ster]

DG45,

Very Cool!! You are right, they definitly would look cool for cowboy action. Thanks for the info!

-George

[DG45]

Thanks to all who replied. I get the picture now. But I didn't want to waste my $2.89 per gallon gas driving to Walmart (not real close by) without being pretty sure they carried small quantities. And around here you can forget trying to find out anything by phone.

I'd prefer Winchester primers, but in case Walmart doesn't have them, are CCI primers just as good?

And darkgael, with the exception of primers, I thought I had everything I needed to load the RMC brass hulls - i.e., all 12 guage components, fiber wads etc., but you just threw me a curve ball when you mentioned that an 11 guage overshot (end) card is needed to glue in and close the hull . Won't the Duco cement hold in a 12 guage end card? Or did you just mean that an 11 guage end card is needed for the drawn brass hulls like Magtech makes?

The 12 guage cards I have now have been working fine with my paper shotshells, but I'm roll crimping them in, of course.

[grubbylabs]

Not sure if your Wal mart has them or not but I know I have only ever bought shot gun primers by the 100 pack for less than 3.50. Some thing like an Ace hardware, Ranch/ home store some thing like that. I would think with a little looking you could find them around town some ware. For your other supplies look at Ballistic Products Inc. They have pretty much every thing you need. They will even give you load data for free.

[howlnmad]

DG45,
Any chance you could post a pic of yourself wearing the fedura?

[darkgael]

DG45: You may find that 12 ga. OS cards allow glue to leak past their edges and then it gets onto the shot. It has happened to me. Where did the glue go? Into and onto the shot charge.
Eleven gauge OS cards are tight enough that the Duco stays put. For Drawn brass hulls, I use 10 ga. OS cards.
Try what you have and see.
OS cards have a different function in a roll crimp. They hold in the shot, of course, but also provide a structure against which you can form the roll crimp.
In these brass shells, they only do the shot holding and need the glue to do that

Pete

[DG45]

Thanks, Pete! Your advice is always good. It doesn't sound like a safety issue so I'll do what you suggest and just use what I have and see how it goes. If it turns out to be a problem, I'll know what to do.

Sorry, howlin. No chance that I'm going to post a photo of me wearing my hat. In reality, I'm what the poet had in mind when he wrote "I see the boys of summer in their ruin". But if you can find a picture of Indiana Jones wearing his fedora, you'll sort of get how I see myself in my minds eye...

[DG45]

Found 100 Winchester primers in a local sporting goods store that I didn't realize sold guns and related stuff. Looked like a soccer and basketball kind of place, but they had guns (long guns, anyway) and ammo, and these primers. The primers were just under $5.00 after tax which was more expensive than CCI's but I wanted Winchester so it was ok by me. Already have all my RMC shells primed with them. Actually, the hardest thing of all to find around here was a tube of Duco Cement to glue in my overshot cards. Everybody used to carry it. Now you can hardly find the stuff. But I finally did. I guess Super glue has taken over the market. I think I'll buy out all the Duco cement in the store where I found it, just to be sure I always have a supply.

[darkgael]

DG45: Have you had a chance to shoot any yet?
My favorite load - I use them in an old Parker SXS that I don't want to stress - is 23 grains of SR 7625, a Rem. Fig.8 wad and 1 1/8oz shot. Nice light load that patterns well out of my gun.
Pete

[DG45]

Nope. Haven't loaded the brass shells yet Pete. Just got them primed yesterday. It looks like its going to be raining here for a couple of days so I may just wait a few days until I can order and get some 11 guage overshot cards which you had suggested I use with the RMC brass shells.

I have fired a few of the papershells you put me onto that were preprimed. It was really a hoot roll-crimping and shooting them! But it was pretty tough on the papershells. And on me. Loud and nasty. A little black powder type shooting goes a long way for me. I'm thinking that from now on, I'm going to use my Triple 7 in these brass shells and use vintage-type smokeless loads in the papershells. I think I can even use the papershells with more powerful smokeless loads in my old Remington Model 11. They'll get jarred around a lot by the recoil, but those roll crimps were tight as a tick and looked pretty secure.

I'm handicapped in formulating vintage smokeless loads for the papershells by my lack of knowledge about powders. From what I've read, it looks to me like Alliant Red Dot is what I should use for vintage loads. (I'm scared to try anything else without somebody with more expertise than me attesting that it won't be too hot for my old gun.) But I've looked for Red Dot around here and haven't found any. The nearest real gun shop/gun repair place is nearly 20 miles away and they don't carry it. They suggested I try Midway online! Well, sure, I could buy a pound of Red Dot online from Midway for about $17, but I'd have to to pay a $25 hazmat fee, plus shipping. No way! That ain't happening! I'll just have to wait for a gunshow and see if I can find some there, or will have to use something else.

I just saw the SR 7625 recipe you're using for the vintage load you're firing in your RMC brass shells. Your old Parker SxS is certainly worth a ton more money than my old Forehand singe barrel gun is, so if you're not araid to shoot that load in your gun, I'm not scared to shoot it in mine. But exactly what is SR 7625? Who makes it? Is it affordable and easily obtainable? And would it be as safe to shoot out of papershells as it is out of these strong RMC brass hulls?

[darkgael]

From what I've read, it looks to me like Alliant Red Dot is what I should use for vintage loads.

Yes, Red Dot is a versatile propellant, useful in many lower pressure vintage loads.
SR 7625 is made by IMR/Hodgdon. As you can see from the load books, it can be used to produce loads that operate very close to BP pressure levels. There are quite a few recipes that yield less than 7k psi, with a few under 6k psi.
An example is a load for Federal paper hulls: 1 1/8oz. shot, Fed. 209 primer, 25 grains of SR7625, WAA12 wad = 5500LUP (not psi). 1150 fps. Another IMR powder that produces low pressures is PB.
I like 7625 because it is a short grained powder that meters well; I use it also to load .45 ACP cartridges, so it has a dual purpose.

Note about pressure data - a complex issue. I have read that a rule of thumb for LUP data is that it reads "about" 500 units lower than piezo measured PSI data for the same loads. I have also read that LUP readings can be as much as 20% different. Thus, that 5500 LUP can possibly be 6000psi or 6600psi - both still pretty low compared to many modern shotshell loads.
I have no qualms at all about using the RMC shells so loaded in my old Parker.

[DG45]

You're the best Pete. Thanks for the info. DG

[DG45]

Finally got a couple of my brass shells loaded and used my old single barrel to shoot them off in the backyard just to say I'd shot them. (No worries folks. There's nothing behind me and my next door neighbors are not at home on weekdays to be freaked out!) There was lots of noise and flash and whitish grey smoke but I'm still standing to tell the tale, and my guns ok too. A hoot!

Funny thing though.The 12 guage overshot cards that the shop owner threw in for free when I bought some 7 1/2 shot from him a month or so ago worked perfectly in the papershell hulls I have. I expected them to work in these RMC brass shells too, but they don't. They're too large in diameter. Go figure.

Luckily I'd bought some BPI 12 guage overshot cards when I bought my fiber wads. I tried them and they did fit in these RMC brass shells. After seating the cards flush with the edge of the rim, I was able to press the edge of the cards in ever so slightly with my fingernail so that there was just a tiny brass rim showing above the white cards all around the inside of the shell. Perfect! Then I used Duco cement all around the rim where the card touched the hull. Everything worked just the way I was told it would.

Thanks again for all the advice from everyone, especially Pete (darkgael). I've got another question about wad columns but will start new thread.