Batavia Damascus Shotgun Serial Numbers

[moreV]

I have a Baker side by side 12 gauge with "Batavia Damascus" on the receiver and different serial numbers. The numbers are high, 250,XXX on the receiver and 252,xxx on barrel and forend. Were numbers ever mismatched like this or have the components been switched out at some point? Also I have found no online info of serial numbers being this high? Any info would be greatly appreciated.

[44 AMP]

Factory original barrels, when numbered, will always match the receiver number. Factory replacement barrels (if numbered) will be numbered to match the receiver. This is the usual standard practice. It's always possible exceptions exist, but generally speaking, if the barrel ser# and the action ser# don't match, its strong evidence that, at some point, someone replaced the original barrel.

One finds two general kinds of barrels as replacements. One kind is the correct barrel, properly fitted by a competent gunsmith.

The other kind is some barrel stuck on because tolerances allowed it to fit, and those may or may not be functional or safe.

Also, without knowing the production history of the maker and that model gun, a "high" serial number may not mean what it seems.

The first gun off the line might be #0001 and numbering might go sequentially up from there. Or there might be gaps in the sequence, or the series might start at a high number and go from there. This is entirely dependend on the maker's policy at the time.

Sometimes, high seeming numbers are not, they just use a number code at the beginning as a year code, or something else.

Lets say for example you've got a gun who's number is 190050. Is that gun the one hundred and 90 thousand and fiftieth gun made?? Or is it the fiftieth gun made with a number system that starts with 190...? Or the 90thousand and fiftieth gun in a series that all start with 1 ? Or something else?? You need to know what the maker did when numbering guns to have an idea which of those is correct (if any of them are (

Also be aware that lack of information on the internet only means a lack of information on the internet. The information may not exist, OR it may exist and simply not have been put on the internet by anyone.

I know this isn't much useful information, but I hope it helps some, at least.

[moreV]

Thanks for the info. this is what I thought probably happened. The foreend has the same serial number as the barrel and it looks like the barrel is Damascus Steel as due to the "striping/ringed" appearance as I understand is the look of Damascus steel? and as I stated earlier the receiver is marked "Batavia Damascus" so I'm not sure if it was the correct barrel replacement or not. Does this hurt the value of the gun at all? The receiver number is 200,431 and the fore grip and barrel are both 252,374 so they are fairly close in production i would guess?

[ligonierbill]

Try your question at doubleguns.com. Those guys are specialists!

[jar]

Originally Posted by ligonierbill

Try your question at doubleguns.com. Those guys are specialists!

That domain name seems abandoned and for sale.

[bladesmith 1]

Baker was the manufacture and Bativia was the model. So it was only natural they named the Damascus the same as the model. Many patterns of Damascus went by different names depending on who was selling it. Seeing how the barrels are marked Bativia you could assume they came from the Baker factory, the ones who made the gun. You said the forearm fits and is numbered to the gun. It wouldn't take a lot of work to get the barrels to fit by any gunsmith or someone with a little knowledge. It wouldn't make them unsafe no matter who fit them. Fitting them only allows the gun to open and close and lock up. The Baker is a good, well shooting SxS. I have about at this time a dozen Damascus SxSs and shoot them every week with my own moderate to low pressure reloads. I keep them under 8500psi out of respect for 100+ year old stocks. Good luck and have fun shooting the old SxSs.

[moreV]

The forend and barrel have the same serial number but the stock is a different number? Maybe changed out over the years for some reason? Could someone have say downgraded? By that I mean would a 12 gauge barrel been chosen over an original 10 gauge perhaps?

[bladesmith 1]

Going from 10 to 12 would not be down grading, just choosing a different gauge. On many old SxSs the frame size changes with the different gauges. It's because the distance between the primers changes with different gauges, so does the distance between the firing pins. I bought the wife a G grade Parker and two years latter bought another set of barrels for it. They were shorter and with more open chokes. It took about a half hour to fit them. The serial numbers are different, but who cares ? Maybe something happened to the original set of barrels on your gun and someone bought another set. Who knows ?

[44 AMP]

Many patterns of Damascus went by different names depending on who was selling it.

This is true, though my Grandfather would "hold court" over the differences between "real Damascus" and "twist barrels".

While they are made the same way, by hammer welding straps around a mandrel, twist (aka "stub twist") barrels were made with 2 or 4 straps, while "real Damascus" used 6 or 8.

Done right, there's no difference in the actual quality of the barrels, but back before WW I (and for some time while after) there was a pride of ownership thing, and everyone "knew" Damascus barrels were the best.

This customer belief held on for some time after "fluid steel" (modern) barrels were available (and superior).

There are even guns with modern steel barrels that were finished to look like Damascus barrels for sales reasons. There was a time when people would pass up a modern steel barrel for a Damascus one (or one that looked like it, and had "the name", because they "knew" the Damascus was a "better barrel".

This may, or may not apply to the gun you have, I don't know, just be aware that there are old shotguns that look like they are Damascus barrels but aren't.

[ligonierbill]

That forum is now at doublegunshops.com. Just logged on.

[bladesmith 1]

Anyone wanting to learn just about everything you'd want to know about Damascus should go to Dr. Drew Hause web site about Damascus. He has many pictures of the different types of Damascus, how it was made, who made it, how strong it is, and what different manufactures called the same Damascus patterns by different names. I have guns with twist, 2, 4, and 6 bar patterns, laminate, and my favorite, the Etoile pattern. It looks like five little stars in a circle within the finger pattern, over and over. I have two friends who have a chain pattern in their guns Damascus pattern, one a Remington and the other a L C Smith. For many years the fine pattern Damascus was thought to be stronger than the cheap twist, but it isn't. The fine pattern Damascus took longer to make so it cost more and was used on the better grade guns offered. In a 1800s World Fair in Europe a Damascus barrel [ and gun ] manufacture from Belgium took first place with his name, Piper, in the Damascus pattern over and over around the barrels from breech to muzzle. There's three examples of names in the barrel steel. I just wonder how many barrels were thrown away trying to do that.
Years back barrels were made by wrapping a flat piece of steel the length of a barrel around a rod and forge welding it the length of the tube, from muzzle to breech. This meant one long weld the length of a barrel. Many times these blew up because the weld went with the barrel. Damascus was considered stronger because the weld went around the barrel. Then Remington started using a 2" in diameter 9" long piece of steel with a 3/4" hole drilled in the middle. They would heat it and with a rod in the middle that could be drawn out when done would stretch it out with rolling mills. This meant a gun barrel, shotgun, pistol, or rifle, without any weld. They were very strong and it didn't take many hours of hammering to make. They used them in their Rolling Block rifle and pistols, shotguns, and sold them world wide which probably saved them from one of their bankruptcies.
I shoot my Damascus barreled guns every week with reduced pressure reloads. I'm not worried about the barrels but wooden stocks over a 100 years old. At my SxS shoot coming up May 14th there will probably be over 30 shooters using their old Damascus SxSs. We have lots of fun comparing and looking at each others guns. And most of all, shooting them.