High Speed Chase, Officer shoots and drives

[westphoenix]

Sorry if this is a repost:

Direct Video Link: http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2...ys_a_crook.wmv
Page Link: http://www.break.com/index/once_a_cr...s_a_crook.html

This is my first time watching this video and didn't like what I saw.
I know some of these clips are editted for entertainment purposes.
When the cop goes to shoot the tires it seems to me as he is risking many lives.
What do you guys think?

Please no cop bashing!

[stephen426]

Holy crap! Did the police truck just run him over? I hope this guy doesn't end up suing the pants off of the police department for that officer's stupidity. The suspect was on foot. How hard would it be for them to surround him and either taze him or pepper spray him? Some scumbag attorney is going to have a field day, especially since it was caught on tape.

As for the officer firing on the vehicle, I clearly saw other vehicles behind and in the proximity of the fleeing vehicle. While it would be very bad if the fleeing driver hit a pedestrian, I'm not sure the officer was really aware of (or did not care) what lay beyond his his target. I do give him credit for being able to hit the tires while giving chase though. I think the proper procedure is to get on the radio and call for a road block and/or tire strips. It would certainly be safer for the innocent bystanders. You can't outrun radio. Chopper assistance would have been very helpful as well.

[springmom]

westphoenix said:

Please no cop bashing!

to which came the reply:

I hope this guy doesn't end up suing the pants off of the police department for that officer's stupidity.

I think it's too late.

Videos on the internet are, for the most part, worth exactly what you paid to watch them. Think "Photoshop" writ large, with movement.

However, that said, this was a terrifying chase. I don't think I'd have been too thrilled to be the car or truck in FRONT of Flores when the officer started firing....

Springmom

[threegun]

12 shots and no hits wow.

[stephen426]

springmom,

How can you watch that video and condone that officer's actions, even from a tactical standpoint? What about watching the officer run the guy over? I'm not sure what is fancy video editing and what is real, but assuming what I saw was real, that officer opened the department up for a serious law suit. If you want to call that "cop bashing", then I apologize.

[threegun]

12 shots and no hits is definitely cop bashing.........although I respect every officer. If your job might require you to use a weapon to survive or better yet to save me, it seems more practice would be voluntary. I have seen some ugly shootin from LE to say the least.

[Bender711]

What do you mean no hits? The back window was gone after the first string of fire, at least thats what it looked like.

[Big Calhoun]

I don't know all the specifics but since I've lived here in Texas for the past 6 months, I have seen at least two police chases covered on television in which officers involved in a chase, and during the chase, shot at a moving suspects vehicle.

Again, I don't know the specifics nor am I agreeing or disagreeing. One of the chases was the semi chase that happened a month or two ago, and the other was a chase that ended in Denton County, maybe 2 or 3 months ago. In both cases, it doesn't seem that locals took the shots, I believe they came from DPS. At least in the case of the semi chase, I absolutely remember it was DPS officers that fired on the move...and hit their marks.

[threegun]

What do you mean no hits? The back window was gone after the first string of fire, at least thats what it looked like.

Bender, I was referring to the bad guys inside. We are taking about an AR-15 at point blank range (for a rifle). He should have hit both with a handful of shots.

[Syntax360]

They had already shot a cop and another person, were unquestionably putting a great number of people in danger by speeding through the neighborhoods like that, and then the girlfriend started shooting at the pursuing officer. At that point, do what you have to do - I'll sit back and watch my tax dollars work for me. That chase needed to stop right away and I'm not going to critize any of it - no innocents were shot by the officer - I'm going to trust he used a reasonable amount of discretion before slinging .223's all over the place.

[springmom]

I didn't actaully condone the officer's shooting. I said I would have hated to be the car in front of the one he was shooting at. That implies that I think the act was dangerous. It was.

The question is, if they hadn't done what they did, what would have happened?

I have no crystal ball so I have no answer to this question. But in the last few months there have been some truly terrifying chases, with suspects firing out the windows of the fleeing vehicle. While shots from the officers' cars are dangerous, so are the ones from the bad guys. And unlike the officers, the bad guys don't give a hoot who they hit.

We had one, some months ago, where someone had kidnapped his girlfriend and her daughter from Dallas and it ended up on I-45 in north Houston. The suspect had the woman driving. HE was firing out the back window of the car with a shotgun.

The tough question is, how do you stop someone who is in the middle of traffic and who is perfectly willing to kill not only the police following him but anybody and everybody who gets in his way? Kill the driver if you can? Then what happens to the car that's going 70 miles an hour as the dead body relaxes into the wheel and onto the accelerator? What happens if, as with the Dallas woman, it's the victim that's driving? I don't have a clue how to do this and keep everybody safe. I don't think there is a way.

If y'all know one, well, maybe the Fort Bend Sheriff's office would like to talk to you. (Or maybe not)

Springmom

[JimJD]

I'm not all that crazy about the rounds fired from the LEO's squad car.
But, I wasn't there. We only saw edited footage.

With that said, in regards to the beginning of the video where Flores was struck by a Police pickup truck... I don't consider it stupidity.
I think it showed....initiative.
But Flores was released after that incident. Why!?!?!

[stephen426]

springmom,

I don't know if you ever saw that tv show that aired quite a few years back that featured a Dodge Viper as a police car? It had some kind of electric charge that supposedly fried the other car's electronics, disabling it. I read that the technology actually exists in real life and bumping a suspect's car with a charged probe sure beat spraying hot lead. I think there was some other country that actually used a harpoon gun to snag fleeing cars. I'm not sure if it is still done, but I will look it up online. One other option would be to "tag" the car with a homing beacon similar to Lojack. I'm not sure what the cost would be to equip squad cars with a homing beacon launcher, but it would be a lot easier to track them down.

I believe that LA decided to cut back on high speed chases. It seems like you could see on on tv at least once a week. Basically, I think it came down to a matter of public safety and liabilities. Helicopter assistance would be great (I know it takes time), and strategically placed road blocks would be a much safer alternative.

I hate for bad guys to get away just because it is too much of a liability for the police to pursue them. Public safety should be the utmost concern however. I fully understand that the fleeing suspects are a danger to the public, but I am not sure that adding to the danger is all that wise. Another thing I am willing to concede is that I was not in the officer's position and I do not have the surrounding details to give me a complete picture. I can say for certain that what I did see was pretty disturbing.

[stephen426]

With that said, in regards to the beginning of the video where Flores was struck by a Police pickup truck... I don't consider it stupidity.
I think it showed....initiative.

Jim... I'm not sure if the JD after your name means Juris Doctorate, but the use of deadly force on a fleeing suspect is clearly illegal, provided he is not an immediate thread to someone's life. Using the truck to hit him is the same as shooting him in the sense that it is lethal force. If the suspect was no longer in possession of a weapon (it did not look like he had one from the video), then the police were not justified in using deadly force against him. I'm not quite sure if your idea of "initiative" is legal. In fact, it is probably why he was released afterwards, and probably with a lot more money than he made as a criminal.

criminal attorneys = redundant :barf:

[jcoiii]

It's hard to tell what was actually happening in the first part of the tape. I seem to recall seeing the rest of that footage at one time or another. But there was more to the story than that guy getting "run over." I just don't remember what was going on or what was said by the perp/officers afterwards.

I will not say that this particular officer was right or wrong, as I wasn't there. i will say that I, myself, am not confident enough to fire a rifle in my left hand while driving. The first time he shot at them, he looked stopped. So I guess he could have two-handed those shots and been fairly accurate (read: hit the truck). As for shooting out the window, while moving..... I'm definitely not that accurate. I'm not sure any of the super secret, hi-tech stuff is within the budget constraints of most departments (other than the black helicopter units ). Usual tactics include the PIT, stopsticks, boxing in. Any of these tactics put officers in an even more dangerous spot due to the fact that these two perps had already shot people, and were shooting out of their windows. Any of the three tactics listed require officers to get pretty close to the vehicle.

I'm pretty sure I remember something about not getting shot in the rules of gunfights. I'm not up for it anyway

[FirstFreedom]

For me:

-the first 12 shots fired by the officer chasing seem justified, because there did not appear to be innocents in the immediate area, and since the LEO was at a stop, and the suspect pickup very close, hits were very likely, and thus misses unlikely. The guy was being shot at just moments previously, so deadly force was justified in my view.

-the second shots while they were rolling at the tires, OTOH; that's pretty marginal, given that that's a very hard shot to make and another vehicle was just up ahead. He did in fact hit the tire at least once, maybe more, but still, shooting AT a moving vehicle FROM a moving vehicle WHILE driving and WITH innocents in view in a vehicle just up ahead seems too dangerous to me.

-as for the old video for when the cop ran him over, that definitely looked like unnecessary deadly force, if he was trying to hit him as it appears. If he wasn't trying to hit him, but just cut him off, then he's a very bad driver who needs to be re-assigned to desk duty. Either way, it's a bad situation. But that part was a rehash of something that happened awhile back.

-As for the risk of speeding down residential streets at 70 mph, this is justifiable in my view because (a) the suspect is a robbery and cop-shooting suspect, so he's so highly wanted that he's likely to himself keep speeding like a bat outta hell regardless of whether or not he is pursued - thus the issue of "pushing" the suspect to endanger the public by driving is not exacarbated, and (b) the cop speeding to justify capture makes sense because he's suspected of at least two felonies! If this had been just someone who ran from a speeding ticket, then I don't not think that kind of speed would be justified.

On the whole, the cop did the right things (the main LEO in the video, not the driver who ran the guy over in the flashback).

[JimJD]

My comment was mixed with a little dash of "tongue in cheek" stephen426.
But, it was meant in all seriousness as well. I imagine that most, if not all states/cities/towns, etc. would consider the officers action to be extreme. I might be mistaken though. This is in regards to Flores being struck with the vehicle by the way.

True, Flores might not have had a weapon on him. But maybe he did.
Who knows?
The suspect was running, and showed no intention of stopping from that clip.
Could the officer just keep following the suspect until he tired? Sure. If there wasn't an escape route that we could'nt see.
Could the suspect have drawn a handgun from his waistband, and fired at the officer when he or she was pursuing him with the truck? Maybe.
Could the same thing have happened when said officer was exiting from the vehicle, weapon drawn, only to find the suspect is armed and is shooting at him or her? Maybe.
The officer stopped him. He or She made a judgement call, and went with it.
I feel they greatly reduced their immediate exposure and risk, while keeping the innocent out of harm's way.

[f8lranger4x4]

This officer made a choise to shoot the tires it must have been a choice he thought was his last option to save the life of the innocent. You have to concider all of the factors that went into makeing that choice. The thing they didn't show on this video and I have seen on the unedited version is that he tryed to kill 2 other police officer with that vehicle when they tryed to block his path. A fact I may add is that the longer a chase goes on the more dangerous it gets for all involved LE and passers-by. I would have to say though I have never done it, shooting from a car in a high speed would have to be a hard task but if thats what it takes then I belive that would be a decision you would have to make in about 3 seconds. That doesnt leve much time to second guess or please everyone.

[azurefly]

Levity break:

However, that said, this was a terrifying chase. I don't think I'd have been too thrilled to be the car or truck in FRONT of Flores when the officer started firing....

I wouldn't want to be a car or truck, either! I'm plenty happy to be a human being!


-azurefly

[Glockamolie]

For those of you that missed my post...

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=224026

...Deputy Waller is the person I sold my Bushmaster to, and I'm pretty sure that's what he's using when firing at the truck. The first incident where the guy got run over was a totally different department than the one firing at the truck.

When I sold him the gun (he's a friend of a friend), the three of us hung out for about 3 hours in my friend's garage shooting pool and talking shop. I'm not about to second-guess his actions, but I can tell you that if the chips were down, he is a guy that I'd definitely want on my team. He's ex-Army, and an avid shooter. He's definitely not a reckless person. And if you want to criticize his shooting, you might want to try your best on a two-way firing range first, and get back to me.

[stephen426]

JimJD,

The officer stopped him. He or She made a judgement call, and went with it.
I feel they greatly reduced their immediate exposure and risk, while keeping the innocent out of harm's way.

So in your book, they would have been justified to shoot him in the back? I equate it to the same thing. If he had a weapon and was a threat, they would clearly be justified. If he did not have a weapon (and I'm not saying he didn't), running him over would have been completely illegal. Officers cannot be the judge, jury, and executioner. They are only allowed to use deadly force when they or someone else is threatened with deadly force. Even if the officer had seen the suspect gun down other officers, as long as he is no longer a threat, deadly force cannot be used. He must be aprehended and has the right to a jury trial. Does the suspect deserve to die for shooting at the police? Probably. In this country however, he still has rights and is innocent until proven guilty.

[stephen426]

Glockamolie,

He's ex-Army, and an avid shooter. He's definitely not a reckless person. And if you want to criticize his shooting, you might want to try your best on a two-way firing range first, and get back to me.

While the facts you stated indicate that deputy Waller is a good shooter and not a reckless person, firing at a moving vehicle from a moving vehicle is still taking unnecessary risks and endangering the public. The outcome does not justify his actions. Trying our best on a two-way firing range is also irrelavent. You simply give the suspect more room and then have a road block or tire spike set up further up the road.

[Glockamolie]

Before you people run off the deep end with the use of deadly force in the cop that ran over the guy, he was trying to cut him off, and got a little closer than he wanted. Try this experiment, especially in any vehicle with anti-lock brakes. Get on an uneven, offroad washboard-type surface, and hit the brakes. You're going to go a little farther than you wanted. And probably even a little farther than that. It was an error in judgement of distance, not an error in judgement of the situation. I can't back that up, as I can't find a link to the follow-up, but that IS the case. Even Texas cops don't just run you down while fleeing...especially with a helicopter above.

[Glockamolie]

"While the facts you stated indicate that deputy Waller is a good shooter and not a reckless person, firing at a moving vehicle from a moving vehicle is still taking unnecessary risks and endangering the public. The outcome does not justify his actions. Trying our best on a two-way firing range is also irrelavent. You simply give the suspect more room and then have a road block or tire spike set up further up the road."

I typed out about 4 different responses, but I'm going to leave it at this: I disagree.

[JimJD]

Glockamolie, I remember your post about the Bushmaster.
The second you mentioned it in this thread I thought "BINGO! That was the officer he was talking about?!".