im a tad confused

Field · October 3, 2009, 04:24 PM

ok i shoot a box of 115g independence 9mm ammo spec'd to shoot at around 1050fps and then i shoot some handloaded 124g 9mm with 5.7g of HS-6 that my book says should have the bullet travelling at around 1000fps i think but the factory 115g ammo definitely has a more noticable pop to it. Like it seems at least 30% louder and you definitely feel more of a 'pop' than the stuff ive been loading.

also when comparing these 2 cartridges i notice with my 124g handloads that i need to have my desired POI slightly above the front site while with the 115grain independence 9mm i need to have the desired POI right where the front site is.

There must be some kind of mistake in this book (hornady) because if these 2 cartridges are loaded to fire at about the same fps (i have a 4.5 inch barrel) why am i seeing these kinds of differences in terms of different points of aim and different felt recoil?

Al Norris · October 3, 2009, 05:10 PM

It all depends upon what type of bullet you are shooting. Are both FMJ? JHP? It does make a difference.

Add to this that I've always found that the Hornady published results are overstated. That is, if Hornady says 5.7gr of HS-6 will push a 124gr XTP at 1150 fps, it generally doesn't. More like 900 to 950 fps.

My 9's like 6.2 to 6.4gr of HS-6, using 124/125gr JHP's (YMMV). --> Hodgdon says 6.8gr max and Lyman's 48th says 6.6gr max.

Don H · October 3, 2009, 05:14 PM

The published velocities were most likely established in test fixtures or firearms that are different from each other and probably different from the firearm you are using. Additionally, are your handloads using the exact same components, crimp specs and OAL? All these differences can cause significant variations in pressure and velocity. There's also an 8% difference in weight between the 115 gr. bullet and the 124 gr. bullet.

Field · October 3, 2009, 05:35 PM

naw im just shooting fmj

that makes sense, my handloads really felt a tad light. personally i would simply load on the hotter side because i think it makes the gun more reliable and less likely to stovepipe or anything like that.

Field · October 3, 2009, 11:54 PM

what kind of powder charges do they put in factory 115g 9mm ammo like WWB, Independence or Blazer brass?

FrankenMauser · October 4, 2009, 12:52 PM

Quote:

what kind of powder charges do they put in factory 115g 9mm ammo like WWB, Independence or Blazer brass?

It doesn't matter. Factory ammo is loaded with what are called 'bulk powders'. They are produced in lots of tens of thousands of pounds, and do not stay consistent across different lots, unlike the 'canister powder' we use for handloads. (Canister powder is formulated, very carefully, to stay as consistent as possible; with only minor lot-to-lot variations.) With each lot of bulk powder, the factory tests the burning characteristics and forwards the information to the purchasing company. They adjust the powder charges, as needed, to stick within pressure limits and stay close the the advertised velocity. Many bulk powders do not even have a canister powder counter-part. They are what they are....

Jim Watson · October 4, 2009, 01:02 PM

It is also what they got a low bid on.
I pulled a couple of Blazers one time, 9mm and .45, and the powder in both looked like Bullseye and weighed in the range of published load data for Bullseye. So they got A Deal on Bullseye that contract. Next order, they might get a good buy on 1147 and load that for a while.

You cannot accurately judge your loads by feel. A 124 grain bullet will feel softer than a 115 if loaded to the same power factor as used in IPSC.

Field · October 4, 2009, 06:00 PM

i was wondering for instance with factory 115g cartridges and suppose you are loading them with bullseye powder, generally what is the charge going to be?

reason being say you are buying a recoil spring for your gun and you have different spring strengths to chose from. such as 18lbs for "factory" loads and 16lbs for "underpowered" loads. How am i supposed to know what an "underpowered" load is if i dont know what a typical "factory" load is?

snuffy · October 5, 2009, 01:29 AM

Quote:

How am i supposed to know what an "underpowered" load is if i don't know what a typical "factory" load is?

Plain and simply, you don't! And until you get a chronograph you won't. Guessing what a load feels like is just that, guessing. Knowing what the velocity is by using a chrony will stop the guessing and start the knowing and learning. Until then you're wasting your time.

Field · October 6, 2009, 10:07 AM

well yeah but i dont see why nobody can just poop some general figures on the powder charges. im not going to dump money on a chrono at this point.

FrankenMauser · October 6, 2009, 12:34 PM

Quote:

well yeah but i dont see why nobody can just poop some general figures on the powder charges. im not going to dump money on a chrono at this point.

Because there aren't any, and it doesn't matter. Every lot of ammo is different. Some of them aren't even using the same powders.

One lot of WWB might be using a bulk powder equivalent to Titegroup, while the next lot could be using a bulk equivalent to W231. There might be as much as a 5 grain spread in charge weight. What good is that information going to do? You have absolutely no idea what powder they are using, so charge weight is a completely irrelevant variable.

Charge weight depends upon many factors, absolutely foremost: the powder being used. If you don't know what that powder is, there is no point in attempting to 'duplicate' it with your powder.

It's like asking what tires your neighbor runs on his truck, so you can run them on your car for the same fuel mileage. There are other factors to consider. Focusing on the tires (or factory charge weights) is a complete waste of time.

We are not trying to be rude, or insulting in any way.
It is a matter of the information you are requesting being completely worthless for the application you have chosen.

If you want to get close to a 'factory feel'; use a bulk bullet from one of the companies whose ammo you shoot, and try some Winchester 231, HP-38, or Unique. Work the load up, as usual, until it cycles reliably and gives you the 'feel' you are looking for.

It would be just as helpful for your inquiry, for me to tell you that I load 3.6grains of H110 under a 36gr DogTown HP in my .22 WMR.

October 3, 2009, 04:24 PM	#1
Field Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2009 Posts: 295	im a tad confused ok i shoot a box of 115g independence 9mm ammo spec'd to shoot at around 1050fps and then i shoot some handloaded 124g 9mm with 5.7g of HS-6 that my book says should have the bullet travelling at around 1000fps i think but the factory 115g ammo definitely has a more noticable pop to it. Like it seems at least 30% louder and you definitely feel more of a 'pop' than the stuff ive been loading. also when comparing these 2 cartridges i notice with my 124g handloads that i need to have my desired POI slightly above the front site while with the 115grain independence 9mm i need to have the desired POI right where the front site is. There must be some kind of mistake in this book (hornady) because if these 2 cartridges are loaded to fire at about the same fps (i have a 4.5 inch barrel) why am i seeing these kinds of differences in terms of different points of aim and different felt recoil?

October 3, 2009, 05:14 PM	#3
Don H Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2000 Location: SLC,Utah Posts: 2,704	The published velocities were most likely established in test fixtures or firearms that are different from each other and probably different from the firearm you are using. Additionally, are your handloads using the exact same components, crimp specs and OAL? All these differences can cause significant variations in pressure and velocity. There's also an 8% difference in weight between the 115 gr. bullet and the 124 gr. bullet. __________________ Don http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/forum/

October 3, 2009, 05:10 PM	#2
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	It all depends upon what type of bullet you are shooting. Are both FMJ? JHP? It does make a difference. Add to this that I've always found that the Hornady published results are overstated. That is, if Hornady says 5.7gr of HS-6 will push a 124gr XTP at 1150 fps, it generally doesn't. More like 900 to 950 fps. My 9's like 6.2 to 6.4gr of HS-6, using 124/125gr JHP's (YMMV). --> Hodgdon says 6.8gr max and Lyman's 48th says 6.6gr max.

October 3, 2009, 05:35 PM	#4
Field Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2009 Posts: 295	naw im just shooting fmj that makes sense, my handloads really felt a tad light. personally i would simply load on the hotter side because i think it makes the gun more reliable and less likely to stovepipe or anything like that.

October 3, 2009, 11:54 PM	#5
Field Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2009 Posts: 295	what kind of powder charges do they put in factory 115g 9mm ammo like WWB, Independence or Blazer brass?

October 4, 2009, 01:02 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	It is also what they got a low bid on. I pulled a couple of Blazers one time, 9mm and .45, and the powder in both looked like Bullseye and weighed in the range of published load data for Bullseye. So they got A Deal on Bullseye that contract. Next order, they might get a good buy on 1147 and load that for a while. You cannot accurately judge your loads by feel. A 124 grain bullet will feel softer than a 115 if loaded to the same power factor as used in IPSC.

October 4, 2009, 06:00 PM	#8
Field Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2009 Posts: 295	i was wondering for instance with factory 115g cartridges and suppose you are loading them with bullseye powder, generally what is the charge going to be? reason being say you are buying a recoil spring for your gun and you have different spring strengths to chose from. such as 18lbs for "factory" loads and 16lbs for "underpowered" loads. How am i supposed to know what an "underpowered" load is if i dont know what a typical "factory" load is?

October 6, 2009, 10:07 AM	#10
Field Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2009 Posts: 295	well yeah but i dont see why nobody can just poop some general figures on the powder charges. im not going to dump money on a chrono at this point.