.38 Short Colt Revolvers?

[TruthTellers]

Just wondering because the cartridge interests me, but since the beggining of cartridge guns, has there ever been a revolver chambered solely for the .38 Short Colt?

I know there have been several revolvers in history chambered for .38 Long Colt.

[Mike Irwin]

Yes, I believe Colt chambered/advertised several revolvers as being for the .38 SC round.

The ones that come specifically to mind are the Colt New Line and New House revolvers.

Not 100% sure, but I believe that the cylinder on the New Line was too short to take a .38 Long Colt round.

[Bob Wright]

As I recall, there were several Colt Open Top, spur trigger pocket revolvers both in .38 Short Colt and .41 Short Colt chamberings.

Bob Wright

[Mike Irwin]

"As I recall, there were several Colt Open Top, spur trigger pocket revolvers both in .38 Short Colt and .41 Short Colt chamberings."

The only one I know of that comes close to fitting that bill is the Colt 1872 Open Top, and I THINK that one was chambered in .38 Long Colt, and used .38 Short Colt because of the LC chambering.

Not 100% certain, but I THINK the spur trigger open tops were all chambered in .22 and possible .32 rimfires.

The spur triggers chambered for .38 LC were closed tops like the New Line and New House.

[Bob Wright]

Mike,

You're right. I spoke (typed) without thinking. I was thinking of the cloverleaf revolvers, which were .41 R.F. and certainly not open topped.

Thanks for the correction!

Bob Wright

[Chainsaw.]

Yes. The Ivar Johnson company made many models of top breaks in 32 and 38 short umongst others. I had a 5 shot (I think) top break Ivar Johnson that I blew the top strap off of when I was young and dumber by using inappropriate ammo. Shooters can be had a gun shows still relatively inexpensively but expect poor finishes.

[TruthTellers]

I did a quick search online and on gunbroker and I can't find anything confirming that the Iver Johnsons were .38 Short Colt or .38 S&W.

I've no interest in .38 S&W.

[Mike Irwin]

I've never heard of Iver Johnsons in .38 Short Colt, only .38 S&W.

Other than the .45 Colt, that company's cartridges gained almost no acceptance while S&W cartridges became almost the universal standard.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Mike Irwin]

Hey Bob,

Speaking of the Colt Cloverleaf, here's an interesting, short video of a guy firing one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKGMvqLy0Ew

That first shot concerns me. It seems to be WAY too powerful...

[James K]

The way he got set for that first shot, it looked as if he was expecting something like a .600 Nitro! The actual recoil must have been a bit of a disappointment.

Jim

[Mike Irwin]

Even so, it seemed as if that round was FAR more powerful than the other 3 rounds (especially the last one).

I'm wondering what he was shooting, and if he should have been running it through an original Cloverleaf House Revolver in the first place.

[TruthTellers]

You know a thread's been hijacked when moderators are the one's doing it.

Oh well, I guess nobody ever made a .38 Short Colt revolver. That sucks, cuz I think it's way better than .38 S&W

[Mike Irwin]

Well, I pointed out to you that it appears that Colt chambered at least two revolvers specifically for the .38 Short Colt.

Additionally, the Colt New Police "Cop & Thug" may have been chambered in .38 SC, but I'm not sure about that.

In addition, any revolver chambered for the .38 Long Colt (like the Model 1877 Lightning) will also fire the .38 Short Colt.

It's really hard to say, though, what some of these early centerfire Colts are chambered for, as R.L. Wilson doesn't even specify, just saying that they were chambered in .38 centerfire...

And, I'm not sure why you think it's a better cartridge. It uses the old style externally lubricated heeled bullet, which makes it difficult to reload, and it was never known for its accuracy.

In power it is pretty much identical to the .38 S&W.

[TruthTellers]

Yeah, forgot to mention I was talking about modern inside lubed .38 Short Colt, not heeled Short Colts.

[Chainsaw.]

Ah ha. I did not catch that you ment short COLT, my mind went straight to the s&w. My apologies. This is why my wife doesnt allow me to think.

[bedbugbilly]

Ass far as "solely" - the birth of the 38 Colt Short was for the cartridge conversions such as the Richards and Mason done on 1851 Colt Navies.

Starling still makes 38 Colt Short brass. I reload quite a bit of it and shoot it in my 38 Specials - S & W Model 36 3" as well as others.

I usually use a 120 ish grain cast slug such as from the Lyman/Ideal 358-242. I also have several molds that produce around a 105 grain slug in .358.

It is a fun round to shoot and cheap to reload. Normally I use a load of either Bulls Eye or Red Dot - around 1.6 to 1.8 grains.

The 38 Colt Short was the father of the 38 Colt Long - which I also reload. The Long was the father of the 38 Special.

For general planning, small critters and killing tin cans, the 38 Colt Short is a lot of fun to shoot as well as reload.

[Mike Irwin]

Wikipedia says that there were actually two versions of the Short Colt, the original with the heeled bullet, introduced in the 1870s for conversion revolvers, and a version with a modern bullet and slightly shorter case, apparently intended for use with smokeless powder, and introduced apparently in 1919.

The information in Wikipedia apparently comes from Holloway's "A Guide to Handgun Cartridges."

It also says that the round was intended for use in the "Colt Police Revolver," which I'm interpreting to mean the Colt Police Positive, which at the same time was chambered in .38 Colt New Police (Colt's analog of the .38 S&W).

[TruthTellers]

Yeah, what appeals to me about the Short Colt is that it can be shot in .38 revolvers and I think the .38 SC has an advantage in snub revolvers because the short length means they'll fully eject from the cylinder. Load up some .38 Short's with XTP JHP bullets and you have a good load to keep in a revolver.

[Nick_C_S]

I think the .38 SC has an advantage in snub revolvers because the short length means they'll fully eject from the cylinder. Load up some .38 Short's with XTP JHP bullets and you have a good load to keep in a revolver.

I have dabbled with 38 Short Colt for my 38 & 357 revolvers. The load pictured is a 100 grain DEWC, w/ 1.8 grains of Bullseye under. 499 f/s through a 3" bbl; and 548 f/s through a 4" bbl. I also loaded a 105 grain truncated cone bullet with 2.7 grains of Bullseye (considerably more propellant because the bullet doesn't {didn't} sit nearly as deep in the case). They ran 673 f/s 3"; and 730 f/s 4".

I never loaded 38 SC with XTP's all pumped up (my intended purpose was not defense; like yours). I will advise you this: The SC being such a small case, burn rates will be very fast relative to the generally accepted burn rate for a given propellant. i.e. Unique may behave more like Bullseye. Or AA#5 will behave more like AA#2- that sort of thing. Approach your work up(s) with great caution.

I do like the concept of the brass ejection you mentioned. With that, how come you aren't considering 38 Long Colt? I would think moving to LC would solve your problem, and deliver a much less persnickity round (behaving more like 38 Spl).

Dies: I sized/de-capped with a regular 38/357 die - nothing different there. I flaired with a 9mm die. And I seated/crimped (separate operations) with a 9mm die too. That delivered a tapered crimp. Since I wanted a roll crimp (pictured), I sprung for a dedicated RCBS 38 SC die that roll crimped (not cheap - I think I paid like $120 for the darn thing). I also purchased 500 new Starline SC cases. So my investment was considerable - all for a project that ended up being scrapped (long story).
(Picture removed so the thread is easier to read.)

[TruthTellers]

I do like the concept of the brass ejection you mentioned. With that, how come you aren't considering 38 Long Colt? I would think moving to LC would solve your problem, and deliver a much less persnickity round (behaving more like 38 Spl).

I figure that I'll start off short and work my way up. If I don't like the Short Colt's results, I'll move up to the Long Colt if needed.

[Nick_C_S]

I have 108 pieces of 38 Long Colt brass. They are all Starline cases from once-fired factory ammo (UltraMax brand).

But I have never attempted to load them. I don't know if 38 Spl dies will work or not (the resize/de-cap will, of course). I kind of assume that if not, 9mm will still work. For seating, I would guess that either a 38 Spl or my 38 SC will work. But . . . I don't know for sure because I've never tried.

[Mike Irwin]

"Load up some .38 Short's with XTP JHP bullets and you have a good load to keep in a revolver."

Given the limited powder capacity of a .38 Short case, and the short-barreled nature of most of the guns chambered for this round, I'd really question if you could get enough velocity from the round to get an XTP to expand.

[mchapman]

My interest is different than yours, I load and shoot short colts in my modern 38/357 wheel guns for competition The loads that I have had good results with are published 9mm loads. I use 147/150 grain bullets and 125's. All loads are subsonic from 800 to 1000 FPS. Now I also will use these same rounds to practice with my 649 2 in. and my sp101 2 in and they work great.

[Lucas McCain]

I have a Hopkins & Allen Police Saftey top brake, 5 shot revolver, chambered in a 38 Short colt. A 38 S&W will chamber up but the bullet protrudes from the chamber and sometimes catches on the forcing cone. I have never shot 38 S&W in it. I have 3 boxes of old Remington factory ammo for it and 1 partial box of Peters 38 New Police ammo that very similar to the Short Colt with the exception that the brass on the New Police is about 1/16 longer. But it does chamber up in the gun with no problems.
It is a very interesting gun, the hammer is notched so it don't rest on the firing pin. When the hammer falls it is on an eccentric and it moves down and changes the arc so it can hit the firing pin. When you let off on the trigger it moves up and disengages the firing pin. I've always felt that it was a unique design for a gun maker back in the early 1900's, which is the patent date on the gun.

They were a economical gun in that day and were known as Saturday Night specials. But it is got quite a few nice features put in it. It's a small pistol and if it was carried in a shoulder holster rig, and with the men's fashion at that time of wearing double breasted tight fitting suits, it would conceal very well.

[James K]

The .38 Colt New Police is not the same as the .38 Short Colt; .38 New Police was Colt's name for the .38 S&W. The two rounds are quite similar and due to manufacturing tolerances of both the guns and ammo, will sometimes interchange in a given revolver.

Jim