Dealing with the active shooter

Jt1971 · December 15, 2010, 09:31 AM

This was an interesting video:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/12/14...chool-meeting/

The moment you see someone with a pistol in a place where there should not be one, what do you do? Do you try to talk with that person like in the video above? Do you simply make a run for it as fast as you can? Do you just sit there silent?

You can cover a lot of ground in a few seconds and it seems like there was plenty of time to make a dash for it. Once I see someone produce a weapon, then I am going to run and not hesitate. A few seconds of hesitation means all the difference between life and death.
Jt1971 is online now

Skans · December 15, 2010, 09:50 AM

The scenario is way too broad to give a general answer.

Proximity to the shooter is the key factor for me in determining what I'd do. If someone surprised me and is holding me at gunpoint within 2 feet from me, I'd use a technique that I've learned and practiced to disarm him. I would not consider drawing my concealed weapon at this point - too slow and dangerous.

If I see someone approaching me in, lets say, a parking lot, I'd seek cover and be prepared, and have my hand on my holstered weapon.

If someone is 3-4 feet from me, holding me at gunpoint, I might just do whatever he asks, might try to close the gap in a "non-threatening" manner and disarm him, might jump for cover if possible, I might draw my weapon and fire, if I thought I had enough time, or any combination of these things.....whatever I thought was best under the circumstances.

If someone someone is waiving a gun around more than 10 feet away from me, and is not yet threatening me or my family - I'm getting the heck out of there as fast as I can.

Rifleman1776 · December 15, 2010, 10:16 AM

Not a clear question.
Define your use of the term "active shooter".
BTW, if the "active shooter" is already shooting, you may already be dead and have no options.

Skadoosh · December 15, 2010, 10:23 AM

"Active shooter" to me means a shooter ... who is shooting. If this is what the OP had in mind, I will be moving, seeking cover AND pulling my weapon all at the same time.

Sefner · December 15, 2010, 10:24 AM

Rifleman is right, the poll doesn't match the context of the movie. In the movie, bystanders try to negotiate with the shooter before any shots are fired. At this point he is just a man with a gun. Only when he starts shooting is he an active shooter.

As much training as Skans (or anyone) has, no one is going to willingly engage an active shooter in hand to hand unless it is their last and only option; it's simply too dangerous. But before the situation gets that far, hand to hand is an option if someone is trained. the point is that when the first shot is fired the situation changes.

Skans · December 15, 2010, 10:34 AM

Quote:

the point is that when the first shot is fired the situation changes.

Yes, I would completely agree with that - maybe I misunderstood the OP - my answers are based on a the BG pointing a gun, maybe making a demand, but no shots fired up to that point.

LordTio3 · December 15, 2010, 10:40 AM

Honestly, if this "Pre-Active Shooter" was in my proximity, I'd move quite slowly and calmly into a safe flanking line of fire behind his line of sight, with no bystanders in the path. I'd draw my weapon, train it COM and wait. If he raised his weapon, I'd fire. If he turns to me with anything other than his head, I'd fire. If he drops his weapon I move closer to order him to the ground. Either way, with me behind his center line at a range of 10-20 feet, and my weapon trained on him ready to fire at an instance, I win 98 times out of 100.

If there is an active shooter, your most immediate goal should be to get to cover. Go somewhere where it'd be difficult to shoot you. Draw your weapon on the way. If you stay and try to fire, but get killed, you're no good to anyone including yourself, and you've possibly given him another weapon. Get away, assess, decide, then act.

That wasn't one of your options.

~LT

And just think...
"What if that woman who ran up and hit him with her purse (stupid) was a CCW Citizen with a 5-shot snubbie in that purse? Could have ended it right then.

Glenn E. Meyer · December 15, 2010, 10:44 AM

No one answer. My suggestion is to take a quality FOF class and see the ways you get shot or save the day.

Anyone who suggests there is one answer as compared to having a set of abilities and well thought out heuristic procedures to evaluate the situation and act automatically doesn't know squat.

Like that - it's from the literature on emergency training?

atlctyslkr · December 15, 2010, 12:00 PM

Don't be a hero, you'll end up a statistic. No reason to engage unless the shooter engages you.

LordTio3 · December 15, 2010, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Don't be a hero, you'll end up a statistic. No reason to engage unless the shooter engages you.

I feel like this is just as much of a cop out. If the shooter isn't engaging me, but IS engaging good innocent and unarmed people; meanwhile I have the ABILITY to act... I have more moral RESPONSIBILITY to act to prevent the continued loss of life.

Quote:

Responsibilities gravitate to the person who can shoulder them.

~Tom Stoppard

At least... that's how I see it.

~LT

Skans · December 15, 2010, 12:34 PM

Don't be a hero, you'll end up a statistic. No reason to engage unless the shooter engages you.

vs.

I feel like this is just as much of a cop out. If the shooter isn't engaging me, but IS engaging good innocent and unarmed people; meanwhile I have the ABILITY to act... I have more moral RESPONSIBILITY to act to prevent the continued loss of life.

This is a personal choice - not the kind of thing anyone can really give good advice on, other than, whatever you do, make sure you don't hurt innocents.

bigghoss · December 15, 2010, 12:56 PM

if I felt I could stop innocent people from getting killed without further endangering anyone I would most likely engage the threat if I were close enough to do so. if I'm on the opposite end of the mall and the guy is a ways off I'm probably going to try and get people moving towards the exit instead of trying to maneuver to get a shot.

it would depend very heavily on the exact circumstances of the individual incident but I'm going to try and help as many people as realistically possible. if I had a family I'd be more focused on them and myself and less with others but since I'm single I'm more willing to chance my safety if it means helping someone else.

Brian Pfleuger · December 15, 2010, 01:12 PM

My responsibility is first and foremost to my family. That responsibility includes not just keeping them safe but also in keeping myself safe.

I am not responsible for other people choosing not to prepare to defend themselves.

In regards to inserting yourself into a situation when you have a choice? Ask Mark Wilson how that turned out.

If it happens when I'm right there and can or have to do something then I'll do something. There is NO WAY I'm inserting myself into the situation unless those "in my charge" are in danger.

thesheepdog · December 15, 2010, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Don't be a hero, you'll end up a statistic. No reason to engage unless the shooter engages you.

Do you know what an active shooter is? It's not a hostage type scenario; rather it's a merciless person who shoots till he/she is either stopped, commits suicide or runs out of ammo.

If you're not willing to use self defense against an imminent threat-which in this case is an active shooter; see description above-then you're not helping yourself and you WILL be a statistic.

If it were me, the active shooter gets stopped dead in their tracks before another human life is taken/harmed.

Glenn E. Meyer · December 15, 2010, 01:25 PM

We've had the moral debate over and over again. I might suggest people search on that before simply saying you have a moral responsibility.

With no offense, it's a cliche to say you would act. There are many factors to go into deciding to act in a pro-social manner. It's in other past threads.

Take a breath and read those before you post on that topic. I'm too busy now to search for all the debates. If someone wants to find the past threads - that would be a big help.

You don't charge Godzilla with a J frame to save Dr. Lecter if the latter is at the mall in Tokyo. That's a joke.

Do you put your kid under cover and go join the fight. That's happened. A bad guy ran by and killed the kid. The GG could have got out of there.

LordTio3 · December 15, 2010, 01:32 PM

I'm more or less impressed by the woman who apparently went to try and pursuade this man to stop trying to kill people by beating him in the arm with her purse. She apparently felt a similar moral imperative (as agreed is her own personal/moral response to the precipitating event) and felt that she HAD to act. But what an almost laughable attempt to disuade a murderous attacker. Honestly there is no reason in the world I would have expected her to survive the attack.

Now had she been armed and properly trained, this could have taken another turn. Or at least a similar one, considering the shooter was wounded by an armed security guard before he hit anyone anyway.

~LT

Double Naught Spy · December 15, 2010, 02:08 PM

Quote:

I'm more or less impressed by the woman who apparently went to try and pursuade this man to stop trying to kill people by beating him in the arm with her purse. She apparently felt a similar moral imperative (as agreed is her own personal/moral response to the precipitating event) and felt that she HAD to act. But what an almost laughable attempt to disuade a murderous attacker.

I don't think she tried to pursuade him as much as possibly knock the gun out of his hand. She wasn't pursuading him to strop trying to kill people as he had not yet attempted to try to kill anyone. She wasn't disuading a murderous attacker as there was no murderous attack at that time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkFMrAMI9SM

She might have done much better stabbing the guy with a pencil or pen, letter opener, scissor, etc. or hitting him in the head with a stapler. She had some time. In the youtube video of the event, she is behind him for several seconds as his attention is directed elsewhere.

Quote:

Honestly there is no reason in the world I would have expected her to survive the attack.

That makes 2 of us.

Quote:

Now had she been armed and properly trained, this could have taken another turn. Or at least a similar one, considering the shooter was wounded by an armed security guard before he hit anyone anyway.

Well, had anyone been armed and trained, things might have been different. The security guard was armed and trained. He apparently shot the guy in the leg after the shooting started. The police showed up in time to still be able to order the board members to the floor, but not in time to actually be helpful.

Most people, even those who own guns, are not properly trained. Look at the people getting their CCW permits. How many are regular shooters? How many attend gun schools? How many shoot more than 1000 rounds a year? How many shoot less than 100 rounds a year? How many haven't shot since the qualified with their CCW or bought their pistol?

It is hard enough getting people to be armed, but getting them armed and trained is an entirely different matter.

Glenn E. Meyer · December 15, 2010, 02:11 PM

Shot him in the leg because of a stress flinch or premature trigger pull as he was bringing the gun up. No follow shots on a downed but still armed and active risk.

Of course, all of us, even without training, would have done better - I suppose.

And that would translate into competent performance in the rampage mall incident - such as happened at the Tyler courthouse and Tacoma mall.

The assumption is always that we win. Is that the case?

Brian Pfleuger · December 15, 2010, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn E Meyer

The assumption is always that we win. Is that the case?

I assume quite the opposite, and plan* to act accordingly.

* The best laid plans of.....

tc556guy · December 15, 2010, 04:52 PM

The Board members had nowhere to go; their backs were to the wall and it was a long way to either end of their table. I guess they could have made a run for it, but they had no idea how good a shot he was and ran the risk of being picked off one at a time if he was a decent shot.

Since they were unarmed, they had few response options under the circumstances once he drew the gun. When he was busy painting the Vendetta symbol on the wall before he started shooting is when they should have moved out of his area.

Sefner · December 15, 2010, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Now had she been armed and properly trained, this could have taken another turn.

Had the gunman had any training this could have been very different. I don't think he planned that second shot, the one that goes off into the ground. Maybe the first shot was in DA and the second was in SA and surprised him.

Double Naught Spy · December 15, 2010, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Shot him in the leg because of a stress flinch or premature trigger pull as he was bringing the gun up. No follow shots on a downed but still armed and active risk.

Right, and that was from a trained security guard who was a retired detective, so a guy with years of police experience and training under his belt.

I did find it interesting that when those who were ordered to leave did find him, he went to the room, poked his head in, the gunman invited him in, and he asked if the gunman had a real gun or not and then opted to wait outside. One of the board members commented that the security guard, a retired officer, was trained to wait for backup. Backup arrived well after being useful.

Dwight55 · December 15, 2010, 09:58 PM

I assumed JT meant for us to view the video and react as if we were physically viewing the scenario unfold as on the video.

If it were that way, . . . my 1911 would have been out as soon as I could have done so without bringing attention to myself.

I would not have hesitated, . . . I would have shot him, . . . period, . . . end of debate.

It was totally obvious that he had what looked like a hi-cap semi-auto, . . . and with the spray paint fiasco, . . . he had already demonstrated a serious lack of good social skills.

Producing the gun tells me it is probably going to get someone killed, . . . better the lunatic than some innocent person who came to the board meeting to get informed, . . . not to get shot.

Call me heartless if you want to, . . . but there is a line that people just don't need to cross, . . . there are consequences to doing so, . . . this would have been one of them.

May God bless,
Dwight

Glenn Dee · December 15, 2010, 11:07 PM

Feet's dont fail me now!!!

raimius · December 16, 2010, 02:33 AM

Situationally dependent.

If I had a firearm and a clean shot, I'd take it. I've lost one friend to an active shooter, and don't want to lose any more!
Without a firearm, I'd probably try to escape with anyone I could get to an exit. The exceptions for me, are if I am trapped or see an opportunity to get in an unopposed hit/stab. I figure I have a decent chance if I can get the first blow and stay inside the weapon's arc (easier if the bg has a rifle).

A few years back, I was in an area that had a false alarm active shooter lockdown. It was there I decided to stay in a locked room unless the shooter passed the door. I was not ready to listen to my friends die while I was behind the shooter's location. If I had heard/seen them pass, I would have tried for multiple back-stabs (no carry zone). Thank God it was a false alarm, as that is not the best tactical plan (but one I would take if in that situation).

View Poll Results: How would you deal with the active shooter?
Make a run for it as soon as you see the weapon	12	9.30%
Stay in place, freeze and be silent	4	3.10%
Hit the ground	4	3.10%
Try reasoning with the active shooter	1	0.78%
Go for cover	53	41.09%
Whip out your concealed carry 1911 and open fire	55	42.64%
Voters: 129. You may not vote on this poll

December 15, 2010, 09:31 AM	#1
Jt1971 Junior member Join Date: November 27, 2010 Posts: 40	Dealing with the active shooter This was an interesting video: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/12/14...chool-meeting/ The moment you see someone with a pistol in a place where there should not be one, what do you do? Do you try to talk with that person like in the video above? Do you simply make a run for it as fast as you can? Do you just sit there silent? You can cover a lot of ground in a few seconds and it seems like there was plenty of time to make a dash for it. Once I see someone produce a weapon, then I am going to run and not hesitate. A few seconds of hesitation means all the difference between life and death. Jt1971 is online now

December 15, 2010, 09:50 AM	#2
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	The scenario is way too broad to give a general answer. Proximity to the shooter is the key factor for me in determining what I'd do. If someone surprised me and is holding me at gunpoint within 2 feet from me, I'd use a technique that I've learned and practiced to disarm him. I would not consider drawing my concealed weapon at this point - too slow and dangerous. If I see someone approaching me in, lets say, a parking lot, I'd seek cover and be prepared, and have my hand on my holstered weapon. If someone is 3-4 feet from me, holding me at gunpoint, I might just do whatever he asks, might try to close the gap in a "non-threatening" manner and disarm him, might jump for cover if possible, I might draw my weapon and fire, if I thought I had enough time, or any combination of these things.....whatever I thought was best under the circumstances. If someone someone is waiving a gun around more than 10 feet away from me, and is not yet threatening me or my family - I'm getting the heck out of there as fast as I can. Last edited by Skans; December 15, 2010 at 10:35 AM.

December 15, 2010, 10:24 AM	#5
Sefner Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 769	Rifleman is right, the poll doesn't match the context of the movie. In the movie, bystanders try to negotiate with the shooter before any shots are fired. At this point he is just a man with a gun. Only when he starts shooting is he an active shooter. As much training as Skans (or anyone) has, no one is going to willingly engage an active shooter in hand to hand unless it is their last and only option; it's simply too dangerous. But before the situation gets that far, hand to hand is an option if someone is trained. the point is that when the first shot is fired the situation changes. __________________ gtalk:renfes steamID: Sefner

December 15, 2010, 10:40 AM	#7
LordTio3 Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2010 Location: Bloomington, Indiana Posts: 850	Honestly, if this "Pre-Active Shooter" was in my proximity, I'd move quite slowly and calmly into a safe flanking line of fire behind his line of sight, with no bystanders in the path. I'd draw my weapon, train it COM and wait. If he raised his weapon, I'd fire. If he turns to me with anything other than his head, I'd fire. If he drops his weapon I move closer to order him to the ground. Either way, with me behind his center line at a range of 10-20 feet, and my weapon trained on him ready to fire at an instance, I win 98 times out of 100. If there is an active shooter, your most immediate goal should be to get to cover. Go somewhere where it'd be difficult to shoot you. Draw your weapon on the way. If you stay and try to fire, but get killed, you're no good to anyone including yourself, and you've possibly given him another weapon. Get away, assess, decide, then act. That wasn't one of your options. ~LT And just think... "What if that woman who ran up and hit him with her purse (stupid) was a CCW Citizen with a 5-shot snubbie in that purse? Could have ended it right then. __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ- Greek:"Come and take them..." Meaning: Here we peaceably stand as armed and free men, willing to defend that peace, and ready to make war upon anyone who threatens that freedom.

December 15, 2010, 10:16 AM	#3
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	Not a clear question. Define your use of the term "active shooter". BTW, if the "active shooter" is already shooting, you may already be dead and have no options.

December 15, 2010, 10:23 AM	#4
Skadoosh Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 2,016	"Active shooter" to me means a shooter ... who is shooting. If this is what the OP had in mind, I will be moving, seeking cover AND pulling my weapon all at the same time.

December 15, 2010, 10:44 AM	#8
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	No one answer. My suggestion is to take a quality FOF class and see the ways you get shot or save the day. Anyone who suggests there is one answer as compared to having a set of abilities and well thought out heuristic procedures to evaluate the situation and act automatically doesn't know squat. Like that - it's from the literature on emergency training? __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

December 15, 2010, 12:00 PM	#9
atlctyslkr Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 613	Don't be a hero, you'll end up a statistic. No reason to engage unless the shooter engages you.

December 15, 2010, 12:34 PM	#11
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Don't be a hero, you'll end up a statistic. No reason to engage unless the shooter engages you. vs. I feel like this is just as much of a cop out. If the shooter isn't engaging me, but IS engaging good innocent and unarmed people; meanwhile I have the ABILITY to act... I have more moral RESPONSIBILITY to act to prevent the continued loss of life. This is a personal choice - not the kind of thing anyone can really give good advice on, other than, whatever you do, make sure you don't hurt innocents.

December 15, 2010, 12:56 PM	#12
bigghoss Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2006 Location: Pueblo, Colorado Posts: 2,664	if I felt I could stop innocent people from getting killed without further endangering anyone I would most likely engage the threat if I were close enough to do so. if I'm on the opposite end of the mall and the guy is a ways off I'm probably going to try and get people moving towards the exit instead of trying to maneuver to get a shot. it would depend very heavily on the exact circumstances of the individual incident but I'm going to try and help as many people as realistically possible. if I had a family I'd be more focused on them and myself and less with others but since I'm single I'm more willing to chance my safety if it means helping someone else. __________________ I don't collect guns, I accumulate them.

December 15, 2010, 01:12 PM	#13
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	My responsibility is first and foremost to my family. That responsibility includes not just keeping them safe but also in keeping myself safe. I am not responsible for other people choosing not to prepare to defend themselves. In regards to inserting yourself into a situation when you have a choice? Ask Mark Wilson how that turned out. If it happens when I'm right there and can or have to do something then I'll do something. There is NO WAY I'm inserting myself into the situation unless those "in my charge" are in danger. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

December 15, 2010, 01:25 PM	#15
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	We've had the moral debate over and over again. I might suggest people search on that before simply saying you have a moral responsibility. With no offense, it's a cliche to say you would act. There are many factors to go into deciding to act in a pro-social manner. It's in other past threads. Take a breath and read those before you post on that topic. I'm too busy now to search for all the debates. If someone wants to find the past threads - that would be a big help. You don't charge Godzilla with a J frame to save Dr. Lecter if the latter is at the mall in Tokyo. That's a joke. Do you put your kid under cover and go join the fight. That's happened. A bad guy ran by and killed the kid. The GG could have got out of there. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

December 15, 2010, 01:32 PM	#16
LordTio3 Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2010 Location: Bloomington, Indiana Posts: 850	I'm more or less impressed by the woman who apparently went to try and pursuade this man to stop trying to kill people by beating him in the arm with her purse. She apparently felt a similar moral imperative (as agreed is her own personal/moral response to the precipitating event) and felt that she HAD to act. But what an almost laughable attempt to disuade a murderous attacker. Honestly there is no reason in the world I would have expected her to survive the attack. Now had she been armed and properly trained, this could have taken another turn. Or at least a similar one, considering the shooter was wounded by an armed security guard before he hit anyone anyway. ~LT __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ- Greek:"Come and take them..." Meaning: Here we peaceably stand as armed and free men, willing to defend that peace, and ready to make war upon anyone who threatens that freedom.

December 15, 2010, 02:11 PM	#18
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Shot him in the leg because of a stress flinch or premature trigger pull as he was bringing the gun up. No follow shots on a downed but still armed and active risk. Of course, all of us, even without training, would have done better - I suppose. And that would translate into competent performance in the rampage mall incident - such as happened at the Tyler courthouse and Tacoma mall. The assumption is always that we win. Is that the case? __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

December 15, 2010, 04:52 PM	#20
tc556guy Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2000 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 763	The Board members had nowhere to go; their backs were to the wall and it was a long way to either end of their table. I guess they could have made a run for it, but they had no idea how good a shot he was and ran the risk of being picked off one at a time if he was a decent shot. Since they were unarmed, they had few response options under the circumstances once he drew the gun. When he was busy painting the Vendetta symbol on the wall before he started shooting is when they should have moved out of his area. __________________ Information posted is personal opinion and should not be considered information released in an official capacity

December 15, 2010, 09:58 PM	#23
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	I assumed JT meant for us to view the video and react as if we were physically viewing the scenario unfold as on the video. If it were that way, . . . my 1911 would have been out as soon as I could have done so without bringing attention to myself. I would not have hesitated, . . . I would have shot him, . . . period, . . . end of debate. It was totally obvious that he had what looked like a hi-cap semi-auto, . . . and with the spray paint fiasco, . . . he had already demonstrated a serious lack of good social skills. Producing the gun tells me it is probably going to get someone killed, . . . better the lunatic than some innocent person who came to the board meeting to get informed, . . . not to get shot. Call me heartless if you want to, . . . but there is a line that people just don't need to cross, . . . there are consequences to doing so, . . . this would have been one of them. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

December 15, 2010, 11:07 PM	#24
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	Feet's dont fail me now!!!

December 16, 2010, 02:33 AM	#25
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	Situationally dependent. If I had a firearm and a clean shot, I'd take it. I've lost one friend to an active shooter, and don't want to lose any more! Without a firearm, I'd probably try to escape with anyone I could get to an exit. The exceptions for me, are if I am trapped or see an opportunity to get in an unopposed hit/stab. I figure I have a decent chance if I can get the first blow and stay inside the weapon's arc (easier if the bg has a rifle). A few years back, I was in an area that had a false alarm active shooter lockdown. It was there I decided to stay in a locked room unless the shooter passed the door. I was not ready to listen to my friends die while I was behind the shooter's location. If I had heard/seen them pass, I would have tried for multiple back-stabs (no carry zone). Thank God it was a false alarm, as that is not the best tactical plan (but one I would take if in that situation).