squaring dies

zeke · January 4, 2019, 07:57 PM

Just wondering if anyone squares up their dies (rifle and pistol) when sizing or seating bullets. If ya do, is there a certain way ya do it?

reynolds357 · January 4, 2019, 08:02 PM

Assuming your press is not bent or drilled wrong, how would they be out of square?

**Unclenick** · January 4, 2019, 08:16 PM

Cumulative tolerance errors can lead to small amounts of misalignment. Say, for example, threads on the die aren't perfectly coaxial with the interior profile, or the milling of the slot in the shell holder isn't perfectly parallel with the deck.

Zeke,

The only approach I know of is to float the die or die parts or the case so they self-align their axes. The Forster Co-ax press does this. The seating stem in the Redding Competition seating die does this. There are other tricks, like using a rubber o-ring under the locking nut to let a die tilt just a little in the threads if it wants to, or rotating a case several times while starting seating in very small increments.

cw308 · January 4, 2019, 08:30 PM

I want all my setup to have the die bottom out on the shell holder , removes any slack in the threads . What I find that helps even more is I use a 7/8 O Ring between the press and the lock ring , even though it's screwed down tight I feel it will self center when the case is inserted in the die . I do this with all my dies . Works for me .

Don P · January 5, 2019, 01:08 PM

Just my opinion, I believe the OP is looking for a solution to a non problem. I don't believe any press manufacturer is letting equipment go out the door that far out of spec.

T. O'Heir · January 5, 2019, 01:46 PM

Like Don P says, that's not an issue. Don't over complicate the reloading process. It's not rocket science.

marchboom · January 5, 2019, 02:00 PM

I agree with Unclenick. Allowing the die to float seems to be the most accurate method. Dies used with an arbor press are used by benchrest shooters who demand the most accurate loading system. This is about as close as you can get to a Co-Ax press.

TX Nimrod · January 5, 2019, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Just my opinion, I believe the OP is looking for a solution to a non problem. I don't believe any press manufacturer is letting equipment go out the door that far out of spec.

I just have experience, not an opinion. The first RCBS press I purchased (JR) was way out of alignment between the ram and the threads. I had to square the dies or a pistol case wouldn’t even enter a sizing die. And this was back in the early-70s when RCBS was a better company not owned by Omark or ATK.

After a few years I got tired of the hassle and mailed the press back - they sent me a brand new upgraded press. Sadly, I have had to send far too many items back to RCBS in the years since, from warped dies to poorly machined shell holders. I seldom buy their products anymore.

.

.

F. Guffey · January 7, 2019, 12:24 PM

Quote:

After a few years I got tired of the hassle and mailed the press back - they sent me a brand new upgraded press. Sadly, I have had to send far too many items back to RCBS in the years since, from warped dies to poorly machined shell holders. I seldom buy their products anymore.

My experience? My opinion? Too many reloaders do not know and or understand what they are looking at. I say the Rock Chucker is not a cam over press; other reloaders say "YES IT IS!" and that is all they know about Rock Chucker Presses.

I made a few tools for determining press alignment with the press, die and shell holder. I do not find it necessary to explain the function of the tools because reloaders do not understand the RCBS Rock Chucker is a non cam over press and when the ram is raised the linkage goes into a bind. The bind forces the ram forward at the top and back at the bottom.

I understand most of this is my problem; I can not get reloaders to turn their presses upside down to check its operation. And then there is that thing about motivating a reloader ro remove their hands from the key board, get out of the comfortable office chair when crawling beneath the reloading table.

F. Guffey

cw308 · January 7, 2019, 02:02 PM

I never had to came over when sizing , why would you need to , long chamber or die problem ? My cases size easy never had to use force .

hounddawg · January 7, 2019, 02:31 PM

you guys ever notice the shell holder has several thousandths of float in it ? The case floats in the shell holder and the shell holder floats in the ram. If it didn't you would destroy your case when FL resizing unless the case was perfectly aligned

You don't have to take my word for it just put a case in the shellholder, wiggle it. On a coax both case and the dies floats

edit-
If you are really sweating the alignment get a 50 dollar wilson seating die and a 100 dollar arbor press. My experiance is it does not seat any better than my RCBS but you do get a lot more feel.

Some would freak out that I seat my bullets on match .260 ammo using a .308 seating die but when I bought the .260 barrel money was tight and it was a Forest micrometer so I thought what the heck and tried it, Other than the neck the 2 cases are the same anyway and I get less than .0015 runout 99% of the time.

Even on the Wilson in line dies the neck has some float but I do like that "feel" you get from the arbor. I don't have micrometers adjustable inline dies though. I went full scale hillbilly and make a "dummy" round seated on my RCBS with the micrometer dies I already own to seat the first round. I seat it to jam depth. Put that in the inline die in, adjust the stem to where it is flush on the case holder. Insert a fresh case and a bullet then use the depth stem on your calipers to get the depth the caseholder, write it down and I can use the datum to adjust the die stem for that bullet

F. Guffey · January 7, 2019, 03:52 PM

Quote:

I never had to came over when sizing , why would you need to , long chamber or die problem ? My cases size easy never had to use force .

If you knew the difference between a cam over press and a non cam over press when talking about presses you would mention the make/model/brand of the press.

Like I said; "What does that mean? I knew when I asked I would not get an answer or the answer I got would sound like we were starting over.

F. Guffey

cw308 · January 7, 2019, 06:48 PM

Guffey
The question came after your post on the ChargeMaster , so the press I'm using is the single stage ChargeMaster . I never had to came over my cases , maybe I'm just lucky . But my question was what causes the case to have a cam over , chamber out of spec or die problem . What does it matter what press is used . Sorry for making things so complicated Guff.

Sorry to stray off topic

Chris

cw308 · January 7, 2019, 07:01 PM

dawg
Now that's an answer to the op's question . Someone with the initials F.G. needs some lessons .

locknloader · January 8, 2019, 10:13 AM

@F.Guffey - you have the most bizarre writing style i have ever encountered, its like you are having a conversation with yourself about some random thing that vaguely ties into the thread you are replying on. Is English not your native language?

F. Guffey · January 8, 2019, 10:54 AM

Quote:

@F.Guffey - you have the most bizarre writing style i have ever encountered, its like you are having a conversation with yourself about some random thing that vaguely ties into the thread you are replying on. Is English not your native language?

Quote:

I never had to came over when sizing , why would you need to , long chamber or die problem ? My cases size easy never had to use force .

CW308 claims has never had to cam over when sizing. Cam over is a function of the press, there are cam over presses and there are presses that do not cam over. I have at least 11 Herter presses, all of my Herter presses cam over. I am now down to 3 Rock Chucker presses; none of my Rock Chucker presses cam over. I did modify one Rock Chucker (many years ago) to cam over. I modified the press to cam over to reduce misalignment meaning the press misaligned when the ram was raised.

I made a tool to check alignment between the ram, die and press. Raising the ram misaligned the ram with the die/press, there was nothing I could do about the problem; it was a given.

And then there is cam over; if the press cams over the amount of cam over can be measured in thousandths. I have had 6 Rock Chuckers; not one of the 6 Rock Chuckers would cam over.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · January 8, 2019, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Just wondering if anyone squares up their dies (rifle and pistol) when sizing or seating bullets. If ya do, is there a certain way ya do it?

I made an alignment tool; I did not invent the tool but I have made many repairs to stationary equipment, I understand no one knows what that means but there are times it is easier, takes less time and saves money to send the machinist to a remote area to make repairs than it is to haul heavy equipment to a shop.

So I have tools that must be aligned before drilling begins and their are seating surfaces etc. that must align. And then there are tools that check for contact between two seating surfaces. It is not my job to convince anyone it can be done.

And then there was Jimmy Dean, 16 tons, Lubbock, Texas and sausage in the morning. It seems his fan were always bothered by road kill. It bothered them because there were so many opossums 'skunk dead in the middle of the road'. When asked he always found time to explain to them about the opossums.

Jimmy told his fans that is the reason the chicken crossed the road. He said the chicken crossed the road to show the opossum it could be done.

F. Guffey

TX Nimrod · January 8, 2019, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by locknloader

@F.Guffey - you have the most bizarre writing style i have ever encountered, its like you are having a conversation with yourself about some random thing that vaguely ties into the thread you are replying on. Is English not your native language?

Obviously you’ve not spent much time visiting patients in mental hospitals.

j/k. The communication skills of a member are not a prerequisite to join TFL.

.

F. Guffey · January 8, 2019, 05:02 PM

Nimrod, if you do not know how to determine the alignment between the die, press and shell holder just say you do not know. And if you are too lazy to crawl under the bench to examine the linkage just say so.

F. Guffey

hounddawg · January 8, 2019, 07:42 PM

Just went over and measured the play in my shell holder. Lateral play is .010 on the X axis and the front is open to allow the case to be inserted. Vertical on the case rim is also .010. The case holder itself is held in place with a spring in a oversize slot so there is a good deal of play there also. I didn't measure it but you can rattle the case holder in the slot with your fingers. Probably around .010 again if not a tad more

Anyone who thinks their case or case holder is perfectly aligned to the die at the beginning of the stroke has less mechanical ability than my old orange shop cat. That's to say not very much, I been training that cat for 14 years now and he still can't tell the difference between a phillips head and a straight blade. Once the case enters the die it will be close enough to get it started into the die and the die walls will guide the case into alignment, the press does nothing but provide a vertical force

For anyone to claim they align their press is almost as ridiculous as claiming the ram does anything except go up and down. BTW for those doing the so called camover stuff. Don't. All you will accomplish is to place unnecessary stress on the linkage.

Dufus · January 8, 2019, 08:22 PM

^^^^^^^
Good post, dawg.

**Unclenick** · January 8, 2019, 08:56 PM

Let's all keep civil and not insult each other's characteristics, please.

We did have a fellow who had a press with a lot of slop in his press ram fit in its journal. He said it made very straight ammunition. Lots of self-alignment there.

zeke · January 8, 2019, 09:55 PM

Apparently there is a magical shellholder with the ability to adjust itself (and the case) to an off vertical die. Does this imply the shellholder, while under the force of the brass being formed, isn't actually flat (bottomed out) in the ram? Does the shell holders ability to slide laterally allow it to align on a vertical axis? Or does this thinking imply the coarse threads on the die automatically (magically) allow the die to aligned vertically each time the locking rings are tightened?

The squaring of dies is not a new concept. Nor do all dies have a perfectly aligned chamber boring.

hounddawg · January 9, 2019, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Apparently there is a magical shellholder with the ability to adjust itself (and the case) to an off vertical die.

No magic. It's just the way the way it works. The dies design does the aligning, the shellholder simply holds the case more or less vertical and allows it to slide laterally to align itself to the die. Dies are cone shaped where the case enters, the side of the case hits the side of the cone and slide in the shellholder when it encounters resistance. As the case slides up and into the die it becomes perfectly aligned with the bore of the die, it it did not it would be damaged by the press and die. That is why shellholders allow float and in co ax presses the dies are floating as well as the cases in the shellholder float

A round sliding from the magazine into the chamber is something we should all be able to visualize. The bolt simply provides the forward momentum like a ram, the case aligns to the bore as it slides into the chamber the same as the case aligns to the bore of the die as it is pushed in by the ram. Same principle except the case is vertical on the press and horizontal on the gun. You can also look at a revolvers design. Before the bullet enters the barrel it enters a forcing cone as it leaves the cylinder to allow it to align itself to the bore in case the cylinder is not perfectly timed to the barrel

when a case enters a die it has two choices, align or be damaged. That case is going to be perfectly aligned with the die when it is all the way in, it has no other alternative other than be crushed

Quote:

Let's all keep civil and not insult each other's characteristics, please.

sorry Nick but respect need to be earned. I have a ton of respect for 99% of the people here. Those who come here to discuss, learn and teach others. Posting gibberish and self aggrandizing posts only confuse the new guys and gals and could cause someone to hurt themselves or others or make them just give up on the hobby.

zeke · January 9, 2019, 09:14 AM

"Dies are cone shaped where the case enters, the side of the case hits the side of the cone and slide in the shellholder when it encounters resistance. As the case slides up and into the die it becomes perfectly aligned with the bore of the die, it it did not it would be damaged by the press and die."

Thank you for making the point. If the die is locked down and not "squared" to the vertical force of the ram, the case conforms to the bore of the die. If the bore of the die is off vertical slightly, the case is forced to conform to it. This is the reason "squaring" the die, or more directly the bore of the die, can help. This helps in "squaring" the bore of the die to the vertical force of the ram. Squaring the die is not the same as allowing the case holder and case to adjust laterally slightly to self center the case into the die.

If it helps, visualize this as the bore of the die being a vertical line, and the flat bottom of the case as a horizontal line. Squaring the die helps ensure the vertical line is at 90 degrees to the horizontal line.

This was learned the first time i bought a carbide pistol die, with a tilted carbide ring. Have seen this written up as using flat washers on the top of the shell holder to force the bottom of the die into the same plane as the top of the shell holder, before locking the die down. This was explained as keeping the die straight to overcome the possible effects of the coarse threads used on the die and press.

Maybe some would earn some respect if they could politely comment, without resorting to ridiculous analogies. Nobody knows everything, and some have been around alot longer than others. As a very wise person once said, "In order to learn something, first you have to admit you don't know it"

January 4, 2019, 07:57 PM	#1
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	squaring dies Just wondering if anyone squares up their dies (rifle and pistol) when sizing or seating bullets. If ya do, is there a certain way ya do it?

January 4, 2019, 08:16 PM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Cumulative tolerance errors can lead to small amounts of misalignment. Say, for example, threads on the die aren't perfectly coaxial with the interior profile, or the milling of the slot in the shell holder isn't perfectly parallel with the deck. Zeke, The only approach I know of is to float the die or die parts or the case so they self-align their axes. The Forster Co-ax press does this. The seating stem in the Redding Competition seating die does this. There are other tricks, like using a rubber o-ring under the locking nut to let a die tilt just a little in the threads if it wants to, or rotating a case several times while starting seating in very small increments. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 5, 2019, 01:08 PM	#5
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Just my opinion, I believe the OP is looking for a solution to a non problem. I don't believe any press manufacturer is letting equipment go out the door that far out of spec. __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

January 5, 2019, 01:46 PM	#6
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Like Don P says, that's not an issue. Don't over complicate the reloading process. It's not rocket science. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

January 5, 2019, 02:00 PM	#7
marchboom Member Join Date: September 10, 2017 Location: No. Idaho Posts: 39	I agree with Unclenick. Allowing the die to float seems to be the most accurate method. Dies used with an arbor press are used by benchrest shooters who demand the most accurate loading system. This is about as close as you can get to a Co-Ax press. __________________ U.S.A.F., aircrew (ret.) NRA Life Member NHRA RSO

January 4, 2019, 08:02 PM	#2
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Assuming your press is not bent or drilled wrong, how would they be out of square?

January 4, 2019, 08:30 PM	#4
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	I want all my setup to have the die bottom out on the shell holder , removes any slack in the threads . What I find that helps even more is I use a 7/8 O Ring between the press and the lock ring , even though it's screwed down tight I feel it will self center when the case is inserted in the die . I do this with all my dies . Works for me .

January 7, 2019, 02:02 PM	#10
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	I never had to came over when sizing , why would you need to , long chamber or die problem ? My cases size easy never had to use force .

January 7, 2019, 02:31 PM	#11
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	you guys ever notice the shell holder has several thousandths of float in it ? The case floats in the shell holder and the shell holder floats in the ram. If it didn't you would destroy your case when FL resizing unless the case was perfectly aligned You don't have to take my word for it just put a case in the shellholder, wiggle it. On a coax both case and the dies floats edit- If you are really sweating the alignment get a 50 dollar wilson seating die and a 100 dollar arbor press. My experiance is it does not seat any better than my RCBS but you do get a lot more feel. Some would freak out that I seat my bullets on match .260 ammo using a .308 seating die but when I bought the .260 barrel money was tight and it was a Forest micrometer so I thought what the heck and tried it, Other than the neck the 2 cases are the same anyway and I get less than .0015 runout 99% of the time. Even on the Wilson in line dies the neck has some float but I do like that "feel" you get from the arbor. I don't have micrometers adjustable inline dies though. I went full scale hillbilly and make a "dummy" round seated on my RCBS with the micrometer dies I already own to seat the first round. I seat it to jam depth. Put that in the inline die in, adjust the stem to where it is flush on the case holder. Insert a fresh case and a bullet then use the depth stem on your calipers to get the depth the caseholder, write it down and I can use the datum to adjust the die stem for that bullet __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek Last edited by hounddawg; January 7, 2019 at 04:15 PM.

January 7, 2019, 06:48 PM	#13
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	Guffey The question came after your post on the ChargeMaster , so the press I'm using is the single stage ChargeMaster . I never had to came over my cases , maybe I'm just lucky . But my question was what causes the case to have a cam over , chamber out of spec or die problem . What does it matter what press is used . Sorry for making things so complicated Guff. Sorry to stray off topic Chris

January 7, 2019, 07:01 PM	#14
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	dawg Now that's an answer to the op's question . Someone with the initials F.G. needs some lessons .

January 8, 2019, 10:13 AM	#15
locknloader Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2017 Posts: 164	@F.Guffey - you have the most bizarre writing style i have ever encountered, its like you are having a conversation with yourself about some random thing that vaguely ties into the thread you are replying on. Is English not your native language?

January 8, 2019, 05:02 PM	#19
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Nimrod, if you do not know how to determine the alignment between the die, press and shell holder just say you do not know. And if you are too lazy to crawl under the bench to examine the linkage just say so. F. Guffey

January 8, 2019, 07:42 PM	#20
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	Just went over and measured the play in my shell holder. Lateral play is .010 on the X axis and the front is open to allow the case to be inserted. Vertical on the case rim is also .010. The case holder itself is held in place with a spring in a oversize slot so there is a good deal of play there also. I didn't measure it but you can rattle the case holder in the slot with your fingers. Probably around .010 again if not a tad more Anyone who thinks their case or case holder is perfectly aligned to the die at the beginning of the stroke has less mechanical ability than my old orange shop cat. That's to say not very much, I been training that cat for 14 years now and he still can't tell the difference between a phillips head and a straight blade. Once the case enters the die it will be close enough to get it started into the die and the die walls will guide the case into alignment, the press does nothing but provide a vertical force For anyone to claim they align their press is almost as ridiculous as claiming the ram does anything except go up and down. BTW for those doing the so called camover stuff. Don't. All you will accomplish is to place unnecessary stress on the linkage. __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek Last edited by hounddawg; January 8, 2019 at 07:54 PM.

January 8, 2019, 08:22 PM	#21
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	^^^^^^^ Good post, dawg.

January 8, 2019, 08:56 PM	#22
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Let's all keep civil and not insult each other's characteristics, please. We did have a fellow who had a press with a lot of slop in his press ram fit in its journal. He said it made very straight ammunition. Lots of self-alignment there. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 8, 2019, 09:55 PM	#23
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	Apparently there is a magical shellholder with the ability to adjust itself (and the case) to an off vertical die. Does this imply the shellholder, while under the force of the brass being formed, isn't actually flat (bottomed out) in the ram? Does the shell holders ability to slide laterally allow it to align on a vertical axis? Or does this thinking imply the coarse threads on the die automatically (magically) allow the die to aligned vertically each time the locking rings are tightened? The squaring of dies is not a new concept. Nor do all dies have a perfectly aligned chamber boring.

January 9, 2019, 09:14 AM	#25
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	"Dies are cone shaped where the case enters, the side of the case hits the side of the cone and slide in the shellholder when it encounters resistance. As the case slides up and into the die it becomes perfectly aligned with the bore of the die, it it did not it would be damaged by the press and die." Thank you for making the point. If the die is locked down and not "squared" to the vertical force of the ram, the case conforms to the bore of the die. If the bore of the die is off vertical slightly, the case is forced to conform to it. This is the reason "squaring" the die, or more directly the bore of the die, can help. This helps in "squaring" the bore of the die to the vertical force of the ram. Squaring the die is not the same as allowing the case holder and case to adjust laterally slightly to self center the case into the die. If it helps, visualize this as the bore of the die being a vertical line, and the flat bottom of the case as a horizontal line. Squaring the die helps ensure the vertical line is at 90 degrees to the horizontal line. This was learned the first time i bought a carbide pistol die, with a tilted carbide ring. Have seen this written up as using flat washers on the top of the shell holder to force the bottom of the die into the same plane as the top of the shell holder, before locking the die down. This was explained as keeping the die straight to overcome the possible effects of the coarse threads used on the die and press. Maybe some would earn some respect if they could politely comment, without resorting to ridiculous analogies. Nobody knows everything, and some have been around alot longer than others. As a very wise person once said, "In order to learn something, first you have to admit you don't know it"