Hmmm Maybe a thumb safety is not so bad....

Nathan · October 17, 2015, 08:42 AM

Your thoughts?

http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/fi...al-discharges/

Another incident where a Glock goes bang unintentionally. The problem is that this has become one of many, so cause is pointing at the gun itself...

In a world where we accept things don't go always as planned, how do we ensure this doesn't happen to us?

I don't carry Glocks, but I do carry a Kahr....in kydex and in a pocket holster that gets removed to re holster....and you?

mrray13 · October 17, 2015, 09:14 AM

Simply put, not the gun's fault. Equipment failure, and a lack of the owner making sure everything was up to par. Yep, I look at my holsters everytime I strap one on. I mostly use kydex in some shape or form, but I do have leather holsters, and all are checked before worn. I don't even think about it, I decide what holster, grab it, give it a once over and put it on, or in my pocket. Takes 10-15 extra seconds, maybe.

That said, I carried an H&K USP 40 on duty for awhile in a Uncle Mike's Pro3 rig, and on more then one occasion, either just removing the gun or drawing it, I observed the thumb safety to already be in the fire position. Not saying that it's a rule, but just because it has a manual safety doesn't mean it's not going to have an issue.

WeedWacker · October 17, 2015, 09:14 AM

I remember this article and I still have the same opinion: don't use worn out gear that needs to be replaced.

g.willikers · October 17, 2015, 09:17 AM

Thanks for the warning.
Murphy is alive and well.
It always pays to inspect our equipment, not just once in awhile, but with every use.
I have an old, soft holster, too.
When it became a little too soft and took two hands to reholster, it got demoted to airgun use.
The demons never sleep.

Nathan · October 17, 2015, 09:29 AM

Guys....these are all great "soft" countermeasures.
Check your equip
Build muscle memory in technique
Slow down reholstering

But, when SHTF and Murphy is going strong we need a not gonna happen fix.

jmr40 · October 17, 2015, 09:51 AM

Thumb safety's can, and do at times become disengaged during normal every day activities. Granted it would have required 2 malfunctions, but it could have happened with a safety. Even a revolver or DA semi could have discharged in this incident.

We had a Sheriff's deputy have a similar incident about a year ago with his Glock. He was interviewing a woman holding a notepad in one hand and writing with the other when his gun discharged in his holster. The bullet had to punch through the bottom of the holster and the angle caused it to hit his leather wallet in the back pocket where the bullet was found. No official reason was ever stated publicly, but it was at least partly because of a defective holster.

FWIW, I like and carry Glocks. But at the same time wouldn't feel disadvantaged if they came with, or at least offered a well designed 1911 style safety.

When the S&W M&P came out and offered some models with a safety I bought one. I found that I didn't like the M&P, and I felt the safety was poorly designed so I sold it.

mrray13 · October 17, 2015, 09:57 AM

There is no "not going to happen" absolute. There is due diligence and preventative maintenance, both of which include the equipment as well as the firearm. Yet most seem to forget the equipment, but are quick to blame the gun, or design of.

Even still, we are human, we are prone to make mistakes. All we can hope for is that the mistake isn't a serious one, and we minimize the chance of that mistake as much as possible.

g.willikers · October 17, 2015, 11:47 AM

How about an added safety for Glocks?
http://www.siderlock.com/?section=features
Or
http://www.usacarry.com/glock-manual...inolli-custom/

9x18_Walther · October 17, 2015, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Another incident where a Glock goes bang unintentionally.

"Another" is a stretch here. This incident is from 2011.

The holster had to be in terrible condition for this accident to occur. Leather holsters especially from a quality company like Galco are very stiff. Regardless, I'm not a fan of these minimalist holsters. It doesn't provide the best possible coverage around the trigger guard.

This is the holster in question:
https://www.galcogunleather.com/jak-..._8_4_1169.html

Notice that there is a gap between the holster and the trigger guard. I'd consider this a no-no. The holster is 100% safe, but completely covering the trigger guard will prevent 99.9% of these accidents.

Either get a traditional style leather holster or get a high quality Kydex holster.

Glocks and other modern service pistols do not need an additional manual safety.

Mike38 · October 17, 2015, 12:19 PM

When ever fallible human beings are involved with anything, mistakes will happen. The more mistake proof you can make something, the better off it will be, up to a point. The only way to make a firearm 100% fool proof is to remove any and all ways for it to function. Since you will end up with nothing but a doorstop, humans have to be careful.

With that said, I prefer a firearm with a manual safety. It's one more item that will help. Not that a Glock is an accident waiting to happen. I have one more little thing to hopefully keep accidents at bay.

.

adamBomb · October 17, 2015, 12:19 PM

This is why I do not carry with one in the chamber. You can practice putting your gun in your holster 10000 times and still mess it up just one time, when maybe you are sick, sleepy, thinking about something else, etc and have this happen. We are human. We will never be perfect 100% of the time. As a result, I have to practice drawing but I dont think racking the slide adds any time for those that practice it. I dont need a safety on a gun because of this and I dont trust safeties. I also do not carry a revolver for this reason and I prefer them to pistols.

T. O'Heir · October 17, 2015, 12:29 PM

Operator failure. Guy didn't maintain his holster. Nothing whatever to do with the pistol.
The deputy found the bullet in his back pocket? He carrying so much money his wallet was bullet proof? snicker.

AK103K · October 17, 2015, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Simply put, not the gun's fault.

Agreed.

Quote:

Thumb safety's can, and do at times become disengaged during normal every day activities.

Used to have it happen with my 1911's all the time.

Quote:

How about an added safety for Glocks?

Why?

Quote:

Glocks and other modern service pistols do not need an additional manual safety.

Agreed.

Quote:

As a result, I have to practice drawing but I dont think racking the slide adds any time for those that practice it.

Hows it go when done one handed?

LockedBreech · October 17, 2015, 02:40 PM

The reason there are so many Glock ND stories isn't something inherent to the Glock, it's simply because Glocks are the most common pistol on the market.

I've never had anything close to an incident with either of my Glocks. Good holsters and proper trigger discipline and you're good.

adamBomb · October 17, 2015, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Hows it go when done one handed?

Hows having a gun worthwhile when no handed? We can come up with scenarios all day that make having a gun, a certain kind, etc all worthless

**JohnKSa** · October 17, 2015, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Your thoughts?

My thoughts are that if you believe a thumb safety is necessary, you are fortunate to live in a time when a huge variety of firearms (including a plethora of thumb safety equipped models) is available.

Quote:

Hows having a gun worthwhile when no handed? We can come up with scenarios all day that make having a gun, a certain kind, etc all worthless

The fact that an argument can be taken to an extreme which is false or meaningless isn't evidence that the original argument is false or meaningless. It's just evidence that the extreme argument is false or meaningless.

The fact is that it's fairly common for a person to be injured in one hand or to need one hand for something other than operating the firearm. It's not a situation that everyone feels the need to prepare for, but it's wise to do so.

**Frank Ettin** · October 17, 2015, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamBomb

Quote:

Hows it go when done one handed?

Hows having a gun worthwhile when no handed? We can come up with scenarios all day that make having a gun, a certain kind, etc all worthless

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

...The fact is that it's fairly common for a person to be injured in one hand or to need one hand for something other than operating the firearm. It's not a situation that everyone feels the need to prepare for, but it's wise to do so.

It is a real possibility that one may find it necessary or desirable to fire his gun using only one hand. It does happen.

The NYPD keeps detailed records of firearm discharges by officers and publishes an annual Firearm Discharge report.

For 2011, of officers reporting the shooting technique used in an incident 71% used two hands, i. e., 29% fired their guns using only one hand.
For 2012, 23 officers reported the shooting technique they used in an incident; and of those only 43% used two hands, i. e., 57% fired their guns using one hand.
For 2013, 35 of 55 officers reported how they held their guns in a shooting incident. Of those 35, 80% used two hand, i. e., 20% fired their guns using only one hand.

AK103K · October 17, 2015, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Hows having a gun worthwhile when no handed? We can come up with scenarios all day that make having a gun, a certain kind, etc all worthless

For a second there, I was starting to think, you were starting to think.

Some people do work through all sorts of scenarios, and have/work at, other skills other than the firearm, trying to improve themselves and their chances, where others seem to believe, why bother, I have a gun, what more do I need?

If you have chosen to carry a gun youre uncomfortable carrying loaded, perhaps you should find something else.

FITASC · October 17, 2015, 06:08 PM

Quote:

If you have chosen to carry a gun youre uncomfortable carrying loaded, perhaps you should find something else.

Despite the other threads where we disagree, on this item, I am 100% in agreement..............

Glenn E. Meyer · October 17, 2015, 06:57 PM

Please save us from another unchambered carry thread debate from someone with self-declared little experience - to be blunt.

BTW, today at the IDPA match I watched someone repeatedly forget to take off the safety from his 1911 from the draw.

adamBomb · October 17, 2015, 07:15 PM

Carrying unchambered is my preference. Using that logic one could argue that your gun is useless if its IWB of a tucked shirt, in a tight pocket, on your ankle, etc. because it might take you 2 extra seconds to get to it when needed. There are a million scenarios one can go through where what you are doing is not the best method for the given scenario. If anyone is concerned about having only one hand they should have a revolver because if your gun malfunctions, its not simple to clear that round with one hand - it might take too long. In fact, the one handed argument is a reason no one should probably have a pistol and we should all have revolvers. Too many what ifs to say what is right vs not.

And those stats of firing a gun one hand have nothing to do with how the gun was drawn and if a 2nd hand wasnt available...at least I just read its how it was fired, not drawn. Those can be two very different things or one in the same.

Glenn E. Meyer · October 17, 2015, 07:39 PM

You are welcome to your opinion and carry the way you want to.

However, carrying a semi unchambered is seen by pretty much every expert as not wise. The Israeli example is a special case.

This is well discussed on every gun forum and in training sessions that have occurred in recent modern handgun self-defense analyses.

As far as one handed manipulation of a semi - been there with an injured hand, trained in how to do it. The advantages of chambered carry far outweigh unchambered carry.

Feel free to carry a revolver if you feel that is a better solution. You won't win this debate except as expressing personal preference based on your analysis of your own abilities.

**JohnKSa** · October 17, 2015, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Using that logic one could argue that your gun is useless if its IWB of a tucked shirt, in a tight pocket, on your ankle, etc. because it might take you 2 extra seconds to get to it when needed.

No, that would not follow.

1. No one is saying your gun is "useless", just that you've unnecessarily delayed the time it will take to deploy it.

2. Since carrying unchambered is purely optional, the carry methods you describe would not be analogous to carrying unchambered unless you could easily and legally carry another way and intentionally choose to carry in a way that makes it harder to access your firearm.

3. Unless carrying those methods created a situation where it's necessary (or highly advantageous) to access the gun with both hands, they are not analogous to carrying unchambered.

Quote:

In fact, the one handed argument is a reason no one should probably have a pistol and we should all have revolvers.

There's an ex-FBI agent who spent some time paralyzed from the neck down because he couldn't reload his revolver with one badly injured hand. Had he been carrying an autopistol, he might have avoided the injury for two reasons:

1. He might not have run dry as soon and might have neutralized the man who shot him.

2. He might have been able to reload in spite of his injury and defended himself.

Nobody is going to stop you from carrying unchambered, and odds are, it won't ever be an issue because odds are you'll never need your gun. But if you ever do, you will have unnecessarily handicapped yourself.

**Frank Ettin** · October 17, 2015, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamBomb

...There are a million scenarios one can go through where what you are doing is not the best method for the given scenario....

Something to consider if you are carrying your gun without a round in the chamber because of safety concerns. Your safety with your gun is entirely within your control. However, the circumstances under which you might need to use your gun in self defense will be decided largely by the person(s) who attack you.

2damnold4this · October 17, 2015, 08:27 PM

I feel safe using a Glock in a kydex holster with a round in the chamber. I have two leather Galco holsters for AIWB carry. One is for a J frame and the other is for a G26. The J frame leather holster has seen heavy use but I just can't bring myself to use the AIWB leather holster for the Glock. I use a Kydex holster instead.

There aren't many good reasons to re-holster quickly in a self defense situation. No one ever won a gunfight by being the fastest person to re-holster.

October 17, 2015, 08:42 AM	#1
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	Hmmm Maybe a thumb safety is not so bad.... Your thoughts? http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/fi...al-discharges/ Another incident where a Glock goes bang unintentionally. The problem is that this has become one of many, so cause is pointing at the gun itself... In a world where we accept things don't go always as planned, how do we ensure this doesn't happen to us? I don't carry Glocks, but I do carry a Kahr....in kydex and in a pocket holster that gets removed to re holster....and you?

October 17, 2015, 09:14 AM	#3
WeedWacker Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2006 Location: Body: Clarkston, Washington. Soul: LaCrosse, Wisconsin Posts: 1,591	I remember this article and I still have the same opinion: don't use worn out gear that needs to be replaced. __________________ - Jon Disequilibrium facilitates accommodation. 9mm vs .45 ACP? The answer is .429

October 17, 2015, 09:17 AM	#4
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Thanks for the warning. Murphy is alive and well. It always pays to inspect our equipment, not just once in awhile, but with every use. I have an old, soft holster, too. When it became a little too soft and took two hands to reholster, it got demoted to airgun use. The demons never sleep. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

October 17, 2015, 11:47 AM	#8
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	How about an added safety for Glocks? http://www.siderlock.com/?section=features Or http://www.usacarry.com/glock-manual...inolli-custom/ __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

October 17, 2015, 12:29 PM	#12
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Operator failure. Guy didn't maintain his holster. Nothing whatever to do with the pistol. The deputy found the bullet in his back pocket? He carrying so much money his wallet was bullet proof? snicker. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

October 17, 2015, 09:14 AM	#2
mrray13 Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2008 Location: Missouri Posts: 911	Simply put, not the gun's fault. Equipment failure, and a lack of the owner making sure everything was up to par. Yep, I look at my holsters everytime I strap one on. I mostly use kydex in some shape or form, but I do have leather holsters, and all are checked before worn. I don't even think about it, I decide what holster, grab it, give it a once over and put it on, or in my pocket. Takes 10-15 extra seconds, maybe. That said, I carried an H&K USP 40 on duty for awhile in a Uncle Mike's Pro3 rig, and on more then one occasion, either just removing the gun or drawing it, I observed the thumb safety to already be in the fire position. Not saying that it's a rule, but just because it has a manual safety doesn't mean it's not going to have an issue.

October 17, 2015, 09:29 AM	#5
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	Guys....these are all great "soft" countermeasures. Check your equip Build muscle memory in technique Slow down reholstering But, when SHTF and Murphy is going strong we need a not gonna happen fix.

October 17, 2015, 09:51 AM	#6
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,809	Thumb safety's can, and do at times become disengaged during normal every day activities. Granted it would have required 2 malfunctions, but it could have happened with a safety. Even a revolver or DA semi could have discharged in this incident. We had a Sheriff's deputy have a similar incident about a year ago with his Glock. He was interviewing a woman holding a notepad in one hand and writing with the other when his gun discharged in his holster. The bullet had to punch through the bottom of the holster and the angle caused it to hit his leather wallet in the back pocket where the bullet was found. No official reason was ever stated publicly, but it was at least partly because of a defective holster. FWIW, I like and carry Glocks. But at the same time wouldn't feel disadvantaged if they came with, or at least offered a well designed 1911 style safety. When the S&W M&P came out and offered some models with a safety I bought one. I found that I didn't like the M&P, and I felt the safety was poorly designed so I sold it.

October 17, 2015, 09:57 AM	#7
mrray13 Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2008 Location: Missouri Posts: 911	There is no "not going to happen" absolute. There is due diligence and preventative maintenance, both of which include the equipment as well as the firearm. Yet most seem to forget the equipment, but are quick to blame the gun, or design of. Even still, we are human, we are prone to make mistakes. All we can hope for is that the mistake isn't a serious one, and we minimize the chance of that mistake as much as possible.

October 17, 2015, 12:19 PM	#10
Mike38 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2009 Location: North Central Illinois Posts: 2,710	When ever fallible human beings are involved with anything, mistakes will happen. The more mistake proof you can make something, the better off it will be, up to a point. The only way to make a firearm 100% fool proof is to remove any and all ways for it to function. Since you will end up with nothing but a doorstop, humans have to be careful. With that said, I prefer a firearm with a manual safety. It's one more item that will help. Not that a Glock is an accident waiting to happen. I have one more little thing to hopefully keep accidents at bay. .

October 17, 2015, 12:19 PM	#11
adamBomb Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2015 Location: coastal NC Posts: 645	This is why I do not carry with one in the chamber. You can practice putting your gun in your holster 10000 times and still mess it up just one time, when maybe you are sick, sleepy, thinking about something else, etc and have this happen. We are human. We will never be perfect 100% of the time. As a result, I have to practice drawing but I dont think racking the slide adds any time for those that practice it. I dont need a safety on a gun because of this and I dont trust safeties. I also do not carry a revolver for this reason and I prefer them to pistols.

October 17, 2015, 02:40 PM	#14
LockedBreech Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2009 Location: Rocky Mountain West Posts: 3,395	The reason there are so many Glock ND stories isn't something inherent to the Glock, it's simply because Glocks are the most common pistol on the market. I've never had anything close to an incident with either of my Glocks. Good holsters and proper trigger discipline and you're good. __________________ 16 Pistols, 5 Rifles, 1 Shotgun, no time to shoot them

October 17, 2015, 06:57 PM	#20
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Please save us from another unchambered carry thread debate from someone with self-declared little experience - to be blunt. BTW, today at the IDPA match I watched someone repeatedly forget to take off the safety from his 1911 from the draw. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

October 17, 2015, 07:15 PM	#21
adamBomb Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2015 Location: coastal NC Posts: 645	Carrying unchambered is my preference. Using that logic one could argue that your gun is useless if its IWB of a tucked shirt, in a tight pocket, on your ankle, etc. because it might take you 2 extra seconds to get to it when needed. There are a million scenarios one can go through where what you are doing is not the best method for the given scenario. If anyone is concerned about having only one hand they should have a revolver because if your gun malfunctions, its not simple to clear that round with one hand - it might take too long. In fact, the one handed argument is a reason no one should probably have a pistol and we should all have revolvers. Too many what ifs to say what is right vs not. And those stats of firing a gun one hand have nothing to do with how the gun was drawn and if a 2nd hand wasnt available...at least I just read its how it was fired, not drawn. Those can be two very different things or one in the same. Last edited by adamBomb; October 17, 2015 at 07:33 PM.

October 17, 2015, 07:39 PM	#22
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	You are welcome to your opinion and carry the way you want to. However, carrying a semi unchambered is seen by pretty much every expert as not wise. The Israeli example is a special case. This is well discussed on every gun forum and in training sessions that have occurred in recent modern handgun self-defense analyses. As far as one handed manipulation of a semi - been there with an injured hand, trained in how to do it. The advantages of chambered carry far outweigh unchambered carry. Feel free to carry a revolver if you feel that is a better solution. You won't win this debate except as expressing personal preference based on your analysis of your own abilities. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

October 17, 2015, 08:27 PM	#25
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 2,526	I feel safe using a Glock in a kydex holster with a round in the chamber. I have two leather Galco holsters for AIWB carry. One is for a J frame and the other is for a G26. The J frame leather holster has seen heavy use but I just can't bring myself to use the AIWB leather holster for the Glock. I use a Kydex holster instead. There aren't many good reasons to re-holster quickly in a self defense situation. No one ever won a gunfight by being the fastest person to re-holster.