Old can of 2400

[TimSr]

I am still finishing off some old powders from the 80's in exterior rusted cans. No problems or detectable ill effects. Had a can of 296 where the lid was almost rusted through but powder inside was fine.

Lots of speculation but I'm just curious if anyone has first hand knowledge of what happens when a powder has degraded from age and environment. My thoughts were worst case scenario is that it performs miserably, but poses no danger unless you are foolish enough to fire a round into a previous squib. Does anybody have actual experience with powder that failed?

[Mike Irwin]

It's something of a wildcard as to what can happen when a powder begins to degrade.

Some powders may simply lose potency and result in squibs.

Other powders can show serious pressure spikes because their burning rate goes off the charts.

[44 AMP]

Modern single base smokeless powder is made using nitrocellulose (aka guncotton). Double base powders use nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin. Along with a few other chemicals.

Nitric acid is a major component, and when powder degrades it gives off nitric fumes. Any kind of reddish/brown powder (dust), corrosion on the inside of the can, lack of the usual smell, etc. are warning signs.

ANY and ALL chemical compounds that show signs of degradation are suspect, and potentially dangerous! Degradation means they are no longer stable, and not in the condition to do their job as manufactured.

MOST chemical compounds become weaker, and eventually inert as they degrade. BUT, not ALL do. Some become increasingly more hazardous and some can even become explosive, all on their own (see explosive peroxides).

Mike said it pretty well.

Also, just FYI if you come across a bottle, can, etc of any old chemical, be it a household cleaning solution or an industrial chemical, if it is forming crystals around the lid (not old spilled material, but crystalline growth), use extreme caution, as you have a potential bomb. Sometimes these are totally inert. but sometimes, they are hyper shock sensitive. And the ones that are can also spontaneously detonate, just sitting on the shelf, with no outside action as a cause. Degraded chemicals can turn into absolutely anything! Because the vast majority simply get weaker or go fully inert doesn't mean the one you are looking at has, or will.

I spent quite a few years doing chemical management, hazardous material handling, and industrial hygienist type work, including handling special nuclear material, and while I don't have a paper to hang on my wall (or not one that means anything) I do know what I am talking about in this instance.

Good Luck, be safe!

[Mike Irwin]

AWWWWW!

Look at the pretty crystals in that bottle of picric acid!

[RC20]

Years back we were hiking in a valley South of here (my step dad, mom and 3 brothers). The 3 of us were ranging ahead, came across a small shed.

I don't remember if the door was open or not locked but we opened it, damn, this think is chuck full of dynamite (says so right on the cartons!)

Upshot one of us yells back we found dynamite and my very calm step dad tells us to stop, careful back away, do not shut the door, walk down the hill. Hmm, rambunctious or not, we knew what that tone meant from my Dad and my step dad was the same. He had work with his father who was a miner and knew all the ins and outs of dynamite. We had seen it used but only as spectators kept at a distance.

He then went up and looked in, backed out and we got the run down on how freezing and thawing works the nitroglycerine out of the core of the stick which is just a holding mechanisms for said nitro. One little thump and 3 kids would have been scatter in pieces all over that hillside (we have all seen those movies!)

Amazing to find it in a common hiking area but there was lots of small miners and one died or went bust.

It got reported to the authorities who went in with a bomb squad from the Military (police in those days did not have that capability) and they blew it up on the spot. No way you can safely handle stuff like that.

[BuckRub]

Mike Irwin in post 27, how can old powder maybe 20-40 years old are whatever have pressure spikes that go through the roof ?
had to laugh when I read that one. hahaha Yea you can hear alot of stuff like that in LGS's that make you laugh.

[44 AMP]

Yes Buck, you can hear lots of BS in the gun shop, but once in a while, what sounds like BS is actually true.

When a complex chemical compound becomes unstable, virtually anything can result. 99%+ it follows the common path, but there are rare instances where it does something opposite the usual path.

In the case of a powder getting more powerful as it decays, I'd bet good money against it, in any specific case, but I wouldn't bet a penny that it could never happen.

Consider the unlikely case of a very slow powder deteriorating in such a manner that the retardant chemicals failed to slow the burn rate at all, so that it detonated or acted like a very fast powder when fired. A case full of something that acts like Bullseye, when you don't expect it, would be a very unpleasant surpise indeed.

[BuckRub]

I've got a box of 30-30 ammo from the 60s. I was scared to shoot it thinking I might have a squib now after reading this I'm scared thinking it might blow my barrel off my gun !
Hahaha. Ok, like the other stories, I believe ya

[snuffy]

where's slamfire when we need him?

Here he is talking about powder aging and what happens to it;

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...53#post5631153

Do a search using his name, he talks about powder and other stuff related to reloading.

As for me, I'd use it, or at least try it IF it smelled right at a starting load in a magnum cartridge.

[shooterbob]

Seems like if powder was degading, it could change the burn rate to a slower burn and cause a pressure spike. If the burn was inconsistent and caused a slower burn, couldn't the pressure build differently?

[jcwit]

Seems like, is a very poor way to decide whether a powder is good or not and what may/could happen if used.

[Sevens]

If you had come across a cache of old Hercules 2400 of the size of... say... 30 pounds? Like a load of powder that would make a genuine difference in the economy of your operation, it seems like it would make sense to investigate whether or not the powder will perform as hoped, so that you could make use of the windfall of cheap or free powder.

Here, we're talking about a single one-pound can. At even a horrificly over-priced small town gun store, you're talking about like twenty six bucks worth of powder. A bit more depending on sales tax.

Of course, I buy my powders eight pounds at a time (except for Power Pistol, dangit!) so I'm spending like $16 to $18 a pound on powder.

Given what I spend just on my projectiles...
And without even mentioning the amount of money I have invested in the firearms I use to launch all these handloads...

...it just seems silly to go to -any- great lengths to salvage a relic like the one being discussed in this thread.

I'd display the very cool, old, period can.

[BWM]

Load and go start low and work up. I have some that is in a card board can that still good.

[Colorado Redneck]

I have some old H4895 that was probably bought 40-50 years ago---who knows. My wife's Grampa was the original owner and he passed away 17 years ago. In searching this forum and the internet there were only a couple of opinions that the powder might be dangerous. Most of the info suggested that if the powder was going bad it would become less potent, meaning it would not produce the original energy. The interior of the metal cap was getting a bit corroded, and the powder is odorless. The color was perfect, and no brown dusting or anything like that.

Long story short, I have an old load data book and that data is the same as current load data for H4895 for 22-250. So I crossed my fingers and loaded some .204 Ruger rounds with beginning charges and went to the range. They worked! Went bang every time. Velocity was a bit slower than anticipated, but it worked. Given the powder shortage over the last 12 months this was a welcome gift from Grampa. I worked up a good load for .204 Ruger and shot quite a bit of that powder.

You could try the same process, and I doubt seriously you will be disappointed. But that is just my OPINION and nothing more. I did wear safety glasses and heavy leather gloves when I shot the first few rounds with that old powder, so it was a bit anxiety provoking.

[Texascoonhunter]

Graphite is used to make powder safe to handle. It keeps friction down as well as static electricity. If the powder still has a good coating of graphite, it is ok to use. It may have lost a little punch but still will work. Powder keeps extremely well for long periods of time, like 50+ years or more, if kept dry and the graphite coating is still good but if the graphite is spotty on the grains or missing all together or there is dust instead of grains, I would do as suggested above and use it as fertilizer. Be safe starting out with low end loads.

[Mike Irwin]

"Mike Irwin in post 27, how can old powder maybe 20-40 years old are whatever have pressure spikes that go through the roof ?
had to laugh when I read that one. hahaha Yea you can hear alot of stuff like that in LGS's that make you laugh."

Yes, you hear a lot in local gunshops that makes you laugh...

Like the 1911 is the world's greatest handgun ever...

A bullet rises above the axis of the bore when it's fired...

And gunpowder is like Twinkees, it never ages.

Obviously you've been listening to the old pharts and eating their Twinkees...

You also missed the part of the discussion where this powder is a lot closer to 60 years old than 20 or 30. And we have no idea how it's been stored over those years.

So, tell us, BuckRub, where did you get your PhD in Physical Chemistry/Chemical Engineering?

Where's your testing lab?

Where are your reams of data backing up what you think you know?

I see others have taken to heart Slamfire's extensive research on the subject of old powder and what can happen to it when it degrades.

I, too, used to think the same way as you, that powder was either ageless and perfectly fine, or as it decayed it lost power and simply faded away.

Like most here, I've fired thousands of rounds of ammunition loaded with powder made when Stalin was still knocking about the Kremlin, and Truman was chewing MacArthur's ass all over Asia.

I'll very likely continue to do so in my military surplus guns (read: Guns I really don't care about).

But I won't do it with the guns I DO care about, my Smith & Wessons, my Remingtons, my Savages.

What you do with your guns is your own business.

But please don't fall into the trap of thinking that just because you can't conceive of it that someone else hasn't already put a serious dent in your beliefs.

[Mike Irwin]

"In the case of a powder getting more powerful as it decays, I'd bet good money against it, in any specific case, but I wouldn't bet a penny that it could never happen."

OK, 44, you appear to have fallen into as big a misconception as the one that's swallowed up Buck Rub.

The powder doesn't get MORE powerful...

The potential is there for its inherent power to be released a LOT faster than is intended.

Most modern powders are made with chemicals that stabilize the powder to keep it from decaying prematurely and other chemicals that moderate its burning rates. In other words, those chemicals slow down how fast the powder burns, which is what makes it useful in the cartridge its in.

As powder ages, the stabilizers are consumed, and the deterrent chemicals can either be consumed by the ongoing chemical reaction or they may simply no longer be up to the job.

If that happens, the powder's burning rate can skyrocket, meaning that pressure can not follow the intended curve, but can spike dramatically.

Slamfire has some charts somewhere done by, I believe, the US Army's ballistics people, that shows those pressure spikes.

[Mike Irwin]

"Graphite is used to make powder safe to handle. It keeps friction down as well as static electricity. If the powder still has a good coating of graphite, it is ok to use."

Incorrect.

Powder decays from the inside out.

By the time the graphite coating (which is NOT a deterrent coating) is affected, the powder is already SEVERELY compromised.

[BuckRub]

So, tell us, BuckRub, where did you get your PhD in Physical Chemistry/Chemical Engineering?

Where's your testing lab?

Where are your reams of data backing up what you think you know?




Sometimes you can have all the PhD's in the world and still not have a lick of "COMMON SENSE". I know of a few that have multiple degree's and still not have enough sense to pour water out their boot. hahaha
So if Im ever shooting and blow my gun to crap with say Bullseye, Im not even going to guess about a double charge. Im gonna say that sorry gun store sold me some "Old" powder ! hahaha But thanks for the Laugh, Everyone needs one every once in awhile.

[reloader28]

I still have 5 1/2lbs of 2400 in cans like that. Got it in a trade for cheap, and it shoots great.
Granted, my cans dont look quite so dirty. Mine are still in good shape.

[buck460XVR]

The fact the the can has been opened for 50-60 years and comes from a source that is unknown, I'd be hesitant to waste the bullets to seat over the top of it.

[trapper9260]

I say I would not worry about if there is some rust on the outside of the can.If it smell the way it should> I say do like was stated do some test rounds and go from there but start with the starter load first.Also as for what is stated about powder not go up in age I have shot a old factory 410 round that was paper in a bolt action and the breach blow up on me.I did not know how long my dad had them.I was young back then many years ago.I think back in the early 70's.

[LarryFlew]

plus another - if it looks good and smells good go for it. I have used powder fromt he 60's and 70's. Also, if they don't smell good they STILL make great fertilizer.

[Snyper]

I bet none of the folks saying "don't use it" would hesitate to shoot up WWII surplus ammo, not knowing how it was stored

If it smells right and looks right, use it

[Slamfire]

I knew nothing about gunpowder lifetime until I ran into an Insensitive Munitions expert. This IM expert explained that powder deteriorates from the day it leaves the factory.

Nitrocellulose decomposes through the reduction-oxidation process. Called Redox. The expert said “The molecular stability of the functional groups on the organic chain determine the life time of the nitrocellulose molecule.” All ionic compounds, water is the main offender because it is always in air, react with those bonds and accelerates the deterioration of the powder.

The bottom line is that nitrocellulose is a high energy molecule that wants to become a low energy molecule.

Heat accelerates the deterioration/decomposition of powder and the rate is directly proportional to the Arrhenius equation. If you read in the Insensitive munitions literature, you will see that they use high temperature to accelerate aging of smokeless propellants.

ROLE OF DIPHENYLAMINE AS A STABILIZER IN PROPELLANTS;
ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY OF DIPHENYLAMINE IN PROPELLANTS

Nitrocellulose-base propellants are essentially unstable materials
that decompose on aging with the evolution of oxides of nitrogen. The
decomposition is autocatalytic and can lead to failure of the ammunition or disastrous explosions.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/783499.pdf

Heat, as you can see in the report, will age gunpowder



Combustion pressures will rise after high temperature storage.

INVESTIGATION OF THE BALLISTIC AND CHEMICAL STABILITY OF 7.62MM AMMUNITION LOADED WITH BALL AND IMR PROPELLANT

Frankfort Arsenal 1962

3. Effects of Accelerated Storage Propellant and Primer Performance

To determine the effect of accelerated isothermal storage upon propellant and primer performance, sixty cartridges from each of lots E (WC 846) and G (R 1475) were removed from 150F storage after 26 and 42 weeks, respectively. The bullets were then removed from half the cartridges of each lot and from an equal number of each lot previously stored at 70F. The propellants were then interchanged, the bullets re-inserted, and the cases recrimped. Thus, four variations of stored components were obtained with each lot.

Chamber pressures yielded by ammunition incorporating these four variations were as follows. These values represent averages of 20 firings.





UN manual on ammunition inspection. See section 7.3.

Surveillance and in-service proof - the United Nations
http://www.un.org/disarmament/convar...Proof(V.1).pdf




Double based powders have a reduced lifetime compared with single base. Double based powders have nitroglycerin (NG) in the grain. Nitroglycerine remains a liquid and it migrates within the grain to react with the NO bonds on the nitrocellulose, increasing the rate of reduction-oxidation reaction. All ionic compounds react with those bonds and accelerate the deterioration of the powder. Rust is bad as ferric oxide is ionic. Water is polar covalent ion and it reacts with the double bonds.

Because water reacts in a negative way with smokeless propellants, quality ammunition is manufactured in humidity controlled environments. Between 40% and 20% humidity. They don't go lower due to electro static discharge concerns.

The best storage condition for powders is arctic. Cold and dry.

Due to the migration of NG within double based powders, the surface of the grain will become rich in NG even though the total energy content of the propellant has decreased. This will cause changes in the burn rate, and can cause pressures to spike. The surface of nitrocellulose powders also change as the powder deteriorates, and it changes unevenly. This creates conditions for erratic burn rates. Burn rate instability is undesirable and can cause explosive conditions in firearms. In retrospect, this explains the “funny” retorts I experienced and the sticking cases. It is an extremely rare occurrence, but old ammunition has caused rifle Kabooms. When I discussed this with a machine gunner buddy, he said that explained the two top cover explosions he had with old Yugoslavian 8 MM ammo. I think it explains the Garand kaboom in the link below.

Section from the Propellant Management Guide:

Stabilizers are chemical ingredients added to propellant at time of manufacture to
decrease the rate of propellant degradation and reduce the probability of auto ignition during its expected useful life.

As nitrocellulose-based propellants decompose, they release nitrogen oxides. If the nitrogen oxides are left free to react in the propellant, they can react with the nitrate ester, causing further decomposition and additional release of nitrogen oxides. The reaction between the nitrate ester and the nitrogen oxides is exothermic (i.e., the reaction produces heat). Heat increases the rate of propellant decomposition. More importantly, the exothermic nature of the reaction creates a problem if sufficient heat is generated to initiate combustion. Chemical additives, referred to as stabilizers, are added to propellant formulations to react with free nitrogen oxides to prevent their attack on the nitrate esters in the propellant. The stabilizers are scavengers that act rather like sponges, and once they become “saturated” they are no longer able to remove nitrogen oxides from the propellant. Self-heating of the propellant can occur unabated at the “saturation” point without the ameliorating effect of the stabilizer. Once begun, the self-heating may become sufficient to cause auto ignition.

NOx gas is a mix of compounds all of which are reactive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_oxide When smokeless propellants break down NOx gas is released. Nitric acid gas is only produced in the presence of water, because it requires a hydronimun ion, but there is plenty of water in air.

The Armed Forces have stockpile surveillance programs but each Service does theirs a little differently. If you want to see all the different tests the military uses to determine propellant characteristics, look at Mils Std 286 Propellants, Solid: Sampling, Examination and Testing to be found at https://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/.

If you look, you will find aging tests. One common test is for powder to be kept at 65 C (150 F) until it fumes. It if fumes within 30 days it is checked for stabilizer or scrapped.

The Navy expert told me a few ways the Navy samples its powders and propellants. If the powder is outgassing nitric gas (as determined by change of color of methly violet paper in contact with the powder (Methly Violet test, or Talliani test)), the stuff is tested to see how much stabilizer is left. If the amount is less than or equal to 20%, the lot is scrapped.

Scrapping powders and propellants with this percentage of stabilizer appears to be consistent across all services.

Pages 5-11 of the 2003 Army Logistics Propellant Management Guide provide the protocols for testing and subsequent actions for their Stockpile Propellant Program. Basically, all propellant lots are tracked. The trigger for investigation is: "When Master Sample Stability Failure Occurs"

The Navy expert provided 'rules of thumb' concerning when to expect problems with double based and single based propellants. The rules of thumb are: Double based powders and ammunition are scrapped at 20 years, single based 45 years. In his words “These 'rules of thumb' are particularly useful when the protocol fails. The protocol can easily fail when workmanship or good housekeeping measures are not followed during manufacture of propellant and/or rocket motor or during storage of the weapon system components, respectively.”

Early in the last century the storage lifetime of smokeless powders was considered to be 20 years or less:

Army Ordnance Magazine, June 1931, page 445 says:

“Smokeless powder constitutes one of the greatest hazards from a storage standpoint, due to the fact that it is subject to deterioration and at the best cannot be expected to have a life greater than about twenty years…….Master samples of all lots of smokeless powder are under constant observation in the laboratories at Picatinny Arsenal. Should any of these samples indicate rapid deterioration, notification is given at once, and steps are taken to use this deteriorating material within a very short period, if possible, or else withdraw it from service.”


For the home reloader, if the powder has turned red, or smells like acid, it is way beyond its safe limits. However, gunpowder and ammunition that has not obviously “bad” it becomes very hard to know the risk. I have, as all of us, shot ammunition from WW2, Korea, Vietnam era. I had pressure issues with Iraqi 303 ball, 8mm surplus, but I did not know at the time what was causing the pierced primers. I have shot 60’s vintage Bullseye, the stuff shot well and chronographed very consistently. But I have also shot surplus IMR 4895 that had no smell and that powder had pressure issues. CMP shooters report pressure problems with Greek ball in the 70’s.

I wish I could give a simple number for the lifetime of gunpowder, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, but I can’t. There are too many variables, from the factory floor, to how the powder has been stored. This is what Federal says is the lifetime of their ammunition:

http://www.federalpremium.com/company/faq.aspx

What is the shelf life of ammo and storage?
Store reloading components and ammunition in a cool, dry place, protected from direct exposure to sunlight. If stored properly there is a 10-year shelf life on loaded ammunition.


But, for the curious, all you have to do is Google “Insensitive Munitions”, surplus ammunition Kabooms, and you will find much more than what I have put into this thread.


More to read if you wish:

www.dtic.mil/dticasd/sbir/sbir031/n154.doc

This paper discusses most of what I have written, but it has a confusing section where it states that “Suddenly, propellant that has spent its entire life in a configuration that was considered inherently safe from the risk of auto ignition is now bulk packaged and stored in a concentrated mass that may be sufficient to allow auto ignition to occur.” After discussions with the Navy expert I found that the insensitive munitions community has its own myths and legends. There are groups within the IM community who promote the “5 inch” rule. The theory is that for munitions 5 inch and smaller, the thermal mass of the case is sufficient to wick away heat and prevent auto ignition. The Navy expert considers this theory to be bogus and created by self serving individuals who get cash awards when they “extend the shelf life” of propellants. Never doubt the power of greed.



http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues...t_stab_eq.html

The pictures in this thread are just amazing, and evidence of powder that has deteriorated to the point that nitric acid gas is corroding the cases. And the reloader had pressure problems:

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3745264

Has anyone else had Vihtavuori N140 corrode in loaded ammo?
I pulled two boxes (100 rounds total) of .308 ammo out of the safe I loaded about ten years ago and found some of them had blue powdery stuff coming out of the necks. I pulled a few rounds down and the inside case walls were powdery blue. The base of the bullets were corroded and blue. None of the other .308 ammo in the safe loaded with Varget has this problem. None of my pistol ammo looks to have anything wrong, but I haven't unloaded any of them. None of my blued guns have any rust. It's not a moist environment issue.

I've never had this happen before. Spent a lot of money loading this ammo for my AR-10 and used new brass, CCI BR2 primers, and N140 powder. It's all junk now.

What made me check it was I shot my AR-10 that's been sitting idle for about 8 years. Same ammo as what's in the boxes I checked. Out of the first ten rounds from the mag that was in the gun three blew primer pockets. I unloaded the rest of the cartridges and they were corroded.

I googled it and found one instance where someone else had the same thing happen

As for shooting WW2 era ammunition, take a look at this Garand Kaboom:

http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1344088

Another Garand Blowup with WWII ball

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....3&postcount=13

I have an old shooting buddy who some years ago was shooting some WWII ball (don’t know whose) but his M-1 was disassembled in a rather rapid fashion. He was lucky only his pride was hurt. He said he took a round apart and found rust looking dust along with the powder. Bad powder. Just sayin…..The op rod can be rebuilt which might be a good way to go. Op Rods are getting harder to find and when you find one a premium price is required so it seems. Garands require grease. I’m not sure if you are aware of this. If you are, please no offence taken.

http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/i...howtopic=21886


Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:29 PM
'Tailgunner', on 17 Jul 2012 - 13:16, said:

I picked up some surplus ammo a couple of years ago and had a couple of hang fires. The hammer would drop and a second later the rifle would discharge.

After that happened a couple of times, I decided I wasn't going to shoot that stuff any more. So I took the ammo apart, thinking I'd at least salvage the brass. After I'd pulled all of the bullets and dumped the powder, I tried chucking the primed cases in a vice and then hit the primers with a pin punch and a hammer.
I found that some of the primers would "pop" but others would just sizzle and smoke. I'm pretty sure those were my hang fires. It was an interesting experiment

The last surplus ammo I had looked so bad that I never fired any of it. Like you, I took it apart. The powder was clumped together. The base of the bullet was green with corrosion. I decapped all the brass, burned the primers and powder outside when burning rubbish, and sold the brass and bullets to a scrap company. Recouped a very small amount of initial price. That was the last time I got fooled on surplus ammo crap.

My guess is that most of the foreign countries that are selling surplus goods to the USA, don't care much about how they handle or store the items, as long as it gets on the shipping container and they pocket the purchase price, they are happy. Caveat emptor is Latin for "Let the buyer beware." It especially applies to surplus goods that have a shelf life. Where was it stored? How was it stored? What temperature? Subjected to water or salt air? Exposed to a structure fire? How was it transported? Etc. etc...too many unanswered questions. A deal that is too good to be true, usually is too good to be true.

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/pow...-ok-print.html

For those that think old ammo is still ok....

A buddy of mine took his Sig p220 .45 down the range with us the other weekend. He had some old winchester hollowpoints that looked like they had been buried for 30 years. With myself still being new to guns and shooting, i didnt think anything about it.

Well he took one shot and it blow up in his hand. Now he has shot numerous rounds through this gun without a problem, of course they were new. Anyway, noone was hurt but the sig. This is hte way the gun is stuck in. It will not budge. Id say its a nice new paperwieght

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....80&postcount=6

Although it's remotely possible that a defective load (very unlikely if factory ammo) or poorly stored ammo that had deterioated. I had some H450 go bad and an "accuracy" load from a .30/06 w/180gr bullet locked up the bolt and removed case looked like a belted magnum...... but gun was unharmed.... primer was blown however and pitted the bolt face...... I pulled down the rest of the ammo and powder "stunk" like vinegar and inside of cases were turning green from acid corrosion..... Ammo had only been loaded 6mos earlier... and powder looked and smelled "ok" then.

http://www.ramanon.com/forum/showthr...d-7-62x25-Ammo

Bad Bad 7.62x25 Ammo

You have probably read my recent thread on a CZ-52 and FTF problems. I expected it was the pistol that had the problem. A few days ago I took it to the range again with the same can of mil-surp ammo after polishing suspect surfaces in the pistol as the possible cause of its problem.

Right away I had the same FTF problem. The slide would not quite close all the way on a round. I had to nudge the slide fully into battery all too often.

So I began to think of other possible causes of the FTF and examined the ammo I was firing. I might have the answer. The surplus 7.62x25 ammo had cracks in the brass of unfired ammo! Often right where a dimple was is in the case that held the bullet head into the case. Sometimes sizeable cracks between the dimples.

Take a look at these unfired cartridges and the cracks. This defective ammo could explain my feeding problem…….

An example of powder that went bad in the can:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...04#post4702804

4895 gone bad? ________________________________________
I just opened a one pound can of IMR 4895, stamped E91 on the bottom (1991?) L7867. The can was sealed and stored in a cool, dry basement room. I immediately noticed a significant amount of fine brown dust throughout the power. It left a notable brown dust type substance on my power funnel, and I decided not to use it. I asked a friend and he has had the same thing (not sure if its actually the same stuff) in some 4831. I could just toss it out to play safe, but this stuff isn't that cheap anymore.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=472369