IMR 4064 for 204 anyone?

[bow shot]

..but unavailable in my area.

[farmall]

Bow Shot,

Have you tried seating to factory OAL? The furhter I seated my bullets out, the worse they shot! I did notice a difference in runout between the Lee and the Hornady seater. I size with the Lee collet, and seat with the Hornady. Can't say it's made much difference in group size though.
Dont give up!
Andy.

[bow shot]

Yes, I actually started at the COAL (2.260" I think?) and was having trouble getting under 1.0" groups, but I can't blame that at all on seating depth. I moved to where I am now (about 0.015" off the lands) as a kind of panic measure, and really saw no initial improvement with similar powder charges. If I don't see the 0.2" groups sticking for the 27.6 gr charge, I'll likely mess around with the OAL. I see lots of shooters are dong very well with the bullet much deeper (into the brass). If that doestn't help, I guess I have to wait for alternate powder(s) to come down from heaven.

I'm thinking of using my RCBS seater too, I'm not sure if it is the operator or the Lee die that is giving me inconsistant OAL. Maybe I'll put a caliper on the raw Hornady bullets to see if they vary that much? Perhaps the olgives of the bullets are perfectly dimensioned, but the lengths of the plastic tips vary a lot...?

I see Midsouth is still totally blank on primers....

[bow shot]

...I was laid off last week (that's not the good news) so I had time to tinker with my 6.5x55 rounds too.

I was able to get the 6.5 consistently under 0.5" using IMR 4350 that I bought "by accident" (I'll call it providence).

I seated to the OAL the Lee recommended in the little chart that they include with their die set.

[farmall]

I found that the plastic tips vary. I check mine using a sinclair tool that measures off of the ogive.
How mays shots between claening? My barrel takes a bit, 5-10 shots to "settle down" and shoot its best.
Keep trying, the powder situation has eased up here, primers are still hit or miss, though.

Andy

[BLS700]

I'm using Nosler ballistic tip 40gr and varget. I'm just chiming in on this to add that I noticed seating them deeper seemed to make my accuracy better also. Kind of opposite of everything else I've loaded for. Last group was .71 (5shots)

[bow shot]

'funny you should mention that. It would take a lot of shooting for me to really find out, but the shooting I've done so far makes me think that the group may improve after I get past the first 20 shots. but I don't know for sure.

[Rook Rifle]

I for one use 26.0 and 40gr v-max this load in my sons gun will shoot one hole at 100yds and the coyote doesn't know if the bullet is at top or low speed

[bow shot]

I assume that you mean 26.0 gr of IMR 4064?

[bow shot]

May have to change to Remington primers. The gouge for what few Federal match primers are available is absolutley sickening me. I see that a brick is going for about $100

[bow shot]

rats.

[bow shot]

I did some measuring, and the vmax bullets are varying by.003". I'm sure the variance is in the plastic tip(s). Since the variance in bullet lengths is the same as the variance in the OAL of the assembled cartrigesl, I gather that the OAL difference between cartridges is not indicative of my seater die performing poorly.

Still no powder, no primers. what a drag

[Colorado Redneck]

From the IMR Powder website:
40 GR. HDY V-MAX IMR IMR 4064 .204" 2.250" 25.5 3379 43,600 PSI 27.5C 3616 52,000 PSI

[bow shot]

I'm sure I'll end up moving from my current OAL of 2.395" toward the 2.250"

...if I ever get primers, that is.

[bow shot]

finally got primers, had to change to Remington 7 1/2's. Started from the gound up again, and here is what we have so far:

(cases are 3x fired and neck sized at this point)

25.6 gr: 1.3" (stopped after 3 shots)
26.0 gr: 0.3" (5 shots)
26.4 gr: 1.0" (stopped after 3 shots)
26.8 gr: 1.2" (stopped after 2 shots)

I have 25.9, 26.0, and 26.1 loads ready to shoot.

I'll likely work up to the max also, just to see what kind of groups are there, (ie, put to bed any future wonderings if a better group may be hiding in the heavier charges).

The unfired test rounds will be used to foul up. Like Farmall's, it seems my rifle likes to be dirtied up a tad before the groups settle in. I'm thinking that my earier poor goups may have been more claening related than powder charge related.

Interesting to see mine likes 26.0 gr. (so far) like Rook Rifle's even though we are pusing different pills.

[bow shot]

all groups were again lackluster. Perhaps my rifle is telling me something...

25.9 gr: 1"
26.0 gr: 0.7"
26.1 gr: 1.3"

I fouled up with 8 shots first. I noticed that some of the rounds were slightly tighter to chamber. My case lengths still measure well, so I'm thinking perhaps I accidentaly moved my seater die (still using the Lee) ... 'could have sworn I put the caliper to it before I loaded.

I don't think this is a shooter problem, because clover leafing with the original "best" load was downright easy when I had it.

I'm going back to scratch. I must have messed something up. I may start with COAL to begin while I'm at it, and I have small rifle magnum primers comming in the mail. Curious to see...

[farmall]

Bow Shot, Do you have a Laminated or Sythetic stock? I've had trouble induced by the very flexible forend on these "tupperware" stocks. Try to rest fairly far back on the fore end and consistently in the same place.

Andy

[bow shot]

So farmall, you're still watching this one!

So now I have loads from the ground up, ready to shoot. I'm tring the 7 1/2's again, and I have some with CCI small rifle magnums ready too. Rain and work, rain and work... And Saturday was the Bass opener here in NY.

'And I went back to COAL. As I look over the data, I don't think I have solid evidence that closing in on the lands got me anything

I'm pretty sure this is a load issue, just because clover leafing wiith the original "best load was a snap. I could be wrong though. I'll be paying closer attention to the bags and how I rest on them, and all that. Maybe my form was just super dialed in that day...

I've got about 20 rounds through the tube after the last cleaning, I'm still thinking that that may be an important variable, like you mentioned.

Some of the CCIs didn't seat deep enough, and it is a tad tighter camming the bolt down on some. Funny, the Remingtons and the federals all popped right in, no problem.

[bow shot]

This test:

1) moved OAL from 2.395" back down to 2.260"
2) ground up loads in .4 gr intervals 25.6 to 27.6
3) CCI small rifle magmum primers
4) each 5 host group spent in about 3 minutes
5) barrell cooled 15 minutes between groups
6) barrell cleaned, and followed with 5 fouling shots before the test shots, no cleaning in between groups

All of groups hovered around the 1" mark straight through. Mostly vertical variation, very slight variation in group placement in relation to the bullseye.

I changed 2 things at onec (OAL and primers). That was kind of stupid.

I wish someone near me would get some powder in... I'm almost out of the 4064 now LOL!!!

[bow shot]

It was taking a tad more effort to cam the bolt because I was not properly seating the primers. I never realized that I didn't have the small rifle primer plug in the press, I was using the large rifle primer plug.

So the next step will be... start from scratch, remington 7 1/2s, @ COAL (2.250" or 2.245"). ...If I have enough powder left that is...

[bow shot]

Well, the local shot finally got some powder variety in, so I picked up a container of Benchmark. I'm just about out of the IMR 4064, and the Fed 205M primers that gave me the best load are nowhere in sight, not even on the horizon.

So the strategy for now is:

1) Save what little 4064 (40 rounds maybe?) I have and if Fed primers ever appear again, I have the data (charge and OAL) that will bring me back to the 0.2" group (if shooting proves that is consistent)

2) Begin fresh with the Benchmark powder, and do loads from the ground up loads with the CCI 450 and Remington 7.5 primers.

About that Benchmark: What a relief to measure and get down the case, compared to that 4064! the powder measure throws it really well, and goes down the funnel into the tiny neck like sand.

[bow shot]

Resuts with Benchmark:

Rem 7.5 primers
1x fired full length sized brass
Clean barrel, and fould with 5 shots (Benchmark powder), no cleaning occurred between groups
32gr Vmax
Brass trimmed to 1.8275" +/- 0.001"
OAL 2.250"

Groups were spaced 10 minutes apart
Groups were accomplished in about 3 minutes each
Groups were limited in number of shots if lackluster results were evident immediately

(Benchmark grains: group inches/ shots)
26.0: 1.74/ 4
26.4: 0.9/ 3
26.8: 1.0/ 3
27.2: 0.7/ 4
27.6: 0.4/ 4
28.0: 0.6/ 5

Other tests:

1) Cold barrell, 15 min cooling time between shots (rifle still not cleaned):
28.0: 1.0/ 5

2) Immediately follow with another group, no unusual wait between shots:
28.0: 1.0/ 5

3) Clean barrel, foul with 5 shots, then allowed 1/2 day to cool. Cold barrell, 15 min cooling time between shots (rilfe freshly cleaned):
28.0: 0.5/ 5

4) Immediately follow with another group, no unusual wait between shots:
28.0: 0.7/ 5


Notes:
In the tight groups, the 3rd shot often holed into the 1st shot.

Again, many rounds chambered slightly tighter. Since I'm positive that I'm now seating the primers properly (slightly recessed into the pocket), and this doesn't occur with my neck sizing die, I'll consider this "normal" for my RCBS full length sizing die.

I'll try again with 4x fired, neck sized brass when time permits. I'll call this the end of the thread unless someone wants me to continue posting, mainly since I'm no longer dealing with IMR 4064.

[bpratl]

Please continue posting your reloading results as I am in the process of putting together a .204 ruger and some reloads. I have been following this tread from the beginning and find it very helpful. I will probably start with W-748 as I have a couple of pounds on hand.

[bow shot]

...I shall. I'm in kind of slow motion, so bear with me on this. As I make ground I'll post results, but sometime it takes me much longer than I'd like to get to the bench or behind the rifle.

Right now I'm out of 32 gr. VMax bullets...

I should say here that I'm not a good example of how to do things; for example I sometimes I change more than one thing at a time, that's not a good thing to do. 'Usually just generates frustration and delay.

Right now I'm pretty settled in though. I still have full length sized brass to use, but I will likely leave it alone except to use if for fouling rounds.

I'll likely stick with these things:
1) Remington 7.5 primers
2) Neck sized brass (fired from my rifle since it chambers consistently)
3) Benchmark powder (can't get anything else anyway)
4) maintain brass length at 1.8275", with very light chamfer

...and then I'll work on these things, one at a time:
1) get best powder charge, likely at OAL 2.250"
2) after best charge, adjust OAL

If I keep my head, I'll try to:
1) Start with a spanking clean barrel before any tests, then 3-5 fouling shots, then shoot test groups casually, waiting 15 minutes between groups.
2) Try to record placement of shots 1-5 relative to each other

[Unclenick]

I've not been following consistently, but I thought I'd toss a couple things out to consider. One is that Charles Petty did some .223 load development in Handloader magazine (back in 2006, IIRC) which showed velocity difference between Federal 205M primers and Remington 7 1/2 primers that was equivalent to increasing the charge weight about 5%. If you have switched to these primers and did not adjust the charge down to match the velocity you got with the Federal primers, then the difference in barrel time due to the Remington's hotter ignition may account for moving you off a group sweet spot. The milder ignition leaves control of the final velocity more to the powder charge weight, so it is often a little easier to get good consistency with the milder primers. The 205M is one of my favorites.

I've seen a couple of posters having trouble with the 40 grain Hornady V-max due to its length. The stabilization of that bullet is marginal with a 12" twist, where the 32 grain A-max length seems just about perfect.

Adjusting seating depth is usually done before adjusting powder charge. I think that is just because best powder charges tend to be near maximum pressure, and changing the bullet position affects that. So, more commonly, you see seating depth adjusted with a starting load, then the powder is worked up. It is hard to see the difference made by 5 thousandths seating depth difference, but sometime one hundredth can make a difference that is pretty apparent, so be prepared to narrow it down pretty far. A lot of bullets will have a sweet spot that is just off the lands fifteen to fifty thousandths, others want their loads worked up touching the lands, while still others do best with the bottom edge of the bullet bearing surface a full caliber into the case mouth.

For a good approach to determining seating depth or powder charge, look at Dan Newberry's OCW load site, and copy his round robin method. It works well at 100 yards, where the traditional Audette ladder really needs 300 yards.\

On seating dies, the one that seats with the least cartridge runout will serve you best. You'll need to get a gauge to measure that, whether by purchasing or by improvising it.