October 28, 2010, 05:49 PM | #226 |
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With what Glen posted, this thread should be done.
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October 28, 2010, 05:50 PM | #227 | |
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Guys,
I think part of the reason we're all talking past each other is because a lot of folks who haven't trained with a really good instructor think that firearms classes are simply about improving your marksmanship. "I can hit this piece of paper without training, so what's the big deal?" That's an understandable attitude, esp when it's based on the assumption that marksmanship is all that's taught in classes. Flip side of that (and oddly, sometimes even coming from the same folks in different threads) is the belief that learning more than simple marksmanship marks you as a mall ninja or a Walter Mitty. "Who needs to be a fantasy warrior? These folks are nuts!" Again, that's an understandable attitude from someone who has only a vague picture of what might be taught in firearms classes that move beyond basic marksmanship. None of that really erases the basic point: if you are the kind of person who would pick up a deadly weapon and intervene to save the life of another person, you'll need more skills than if you wouldn't. Failing to get those skills vastly increases the chance that you will kill an innocent person who otherwise would not have died. As Glenn said: Quote:
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October 28, 2010, 06:00 PM | #228 | ||
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If one is in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury and if it is immediately necessary for one to employ deadly force to defend oneself, the ability to shoot a target at seven yards in a safe manner is necessary, but it is not sufficient. There is also the manner of time. The terms imminent and immediately should give at least a partial clue to that. The law enforcement term "violent criminal actors" is fitting. If you are justified in shooting someone, he is about to kill you--not waiting for you to shoot him like a target at the range. The whole concept of self defense is that if you do not stop him first, he will kill or injure you. One has to be able to produce his weapon very quickly and shoot very quickly. Getting at least two immediate hits per assailant after a nominal draw time of a second and a half should give one a chance, and there is a fair chance that there will be more than one assailant. To be able to do so while running for cover would be even better. Maybe, just maybe, one might be able to develop the necessary skills through practice alone. In my case, and I have more than half a century of shooting experience, I found professional training invaluable. Last edited by OldMarksman; October 28, 2010 at 06:07 PM. |
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October 28, 2010, 06:47 PM | #229 | ||||
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On the other items, we agree. Personally, I am not content with watered down 'training' aimed at the lowest common denominator. Lot of excuses why THEY don't need to train shared by both civilians and armed professionals. |
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October 28, 2010, 09:02 PM | #230 | |
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This thread is not about whether or not you should be required to have a permit to carry/own a firearm. This thread is also not about whether or not you should be required to meet mandated standards to carry/own a gun.
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October 28, 2010, 10:12 PM | #231 |
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My only disagreement with the original thesis is that government training is worthless.
There are lots of examples of government training people in complex skills, including the use of firearms. Not only military and police either. One of the shooting classes I took was through a city park. There is no reason that some government agency couldn't be involved in training shooters. The parks system is already set up to train people by the thousands. No I am not speaking of or for mandatory training. My granddaughter took eight weeks of swim lessons for $55. The taxes of the folk in my county took up the rest of the freight. The same idea is true of hunters safety class another example of good government training I don't see why accessible quality firearm training couldn't be done the same way. I think that is also an initiative that would find support amongst people that support gun control. On another topic in this thread. I don't think morality is involved. We have a simple self interest to increase our ability to protect ourselves. We also have a legal responsibility to not harm others. That responsibility may be mitigated by other factors, but it still remains. If we can show that we have trained for the unlikely event of a shoot out, it can be argued that we have shown due diligence. Our responsibility in collateral damage would be further mitigated. Morality is all well and good till someone has you strap on an explosive vest. |
October 29, 2010, 02:47 AM | #232 | ||||||
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JohnKSa states:
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and continues: Quote:
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Glenn E. Meyer states: Quote:
And therein lies the rub: some folks have voiced a concern for others using "Morality" as a "motivational factor" to "influence" their own "degree of training". Perhaps as a professional ethics issue; given LEO or similar background. Perhaps as a civic/legal responsibility; given existing laws or possibility of civil suits and repercussions. Or even perhaps as an "I just enjoy additional training" issue. And speaking of "Morality" Tamara states: Quote:
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October 29, 2010, 04:00 AM | #233 | ||
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Because of things like the ADA, EOC and other PC bs the .gov are the #1 reason for this lowest common denominator training. It has been 'dumbed down' so that unmotivated (or down-right lazy) can still 'pass' and keep their jobs. Read some of the posts in other threads about cops not wanting to train unless being paid or it being mandatory. Why else are they happy to hit the streets with an 80% or less score? The vast majority of the time, any 'advanced' .gov training will actually come from the private sector - either as civilian contract work or the instructor brought it back after taking private training. Quote:
Firearms training, either. |
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October 29, 2010, 08:07 AM | #234 |
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Is there a government mandate to build roads? Have schools? None of those were particularly common when the constituation was written. Roads? Ever hear of a turnpike? Maybe not a bad idea. It's coming back. Privately owned roads, too, perhaps foreign owned. They have to do something with all that money.
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October 29, 2010, 08:27 AM | #235 | |
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Do any of you really feel safe with your level of training? Just because there is a handgun stuffed in your waist, does that make you feel secure? Just because you have a CHL, doesn't mean you're safe. All a CHL does is give you permission to walk into the gladiator's arena, while armed.
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October 29, 2010, 11:33 AM | #236 |
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AZAK,
My position is (and always has been) that moral, responsible people will step up & get the training they need, whether or not the state requires it. If anyone could convince me otherwise, you've done a damn good job of coming close. pax Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. -- John Adams A country cannot subsist well without liberty, nor liberty without virtue. -- Jean Jacques Rousseau If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all. -- Jacob Hornberger There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you please unless it causes others harm. With it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences. -- P.J. O'Rourke Last edited by pax; October 29, 2010 at 11:39 AM. |
October 29, 2010, 12:05 PM | #237 | |
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There are a lot of things that are not mandated by the constitution. One of those things is public education. Yet I don't know of one of the founding fathers that didn't support public education in one form or another. One thing that is mandated by the constitution is your right to bear arms. While we can argue about the details, the over arching reason for that is because it is a public good. When something is a public good, whether it's roads or firearms ownership, it is a role of government to maximize that good. |
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October 29, 2010, 01:10 PM | #238 | |
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And I'm going to add that training includes a solid grounding in ethics, legal and moral philosophy, not just Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. You young guys...turn off the TV and read. You don't even need a college education "Man is master of his actions; and yet, in so far as he belongs to another, i.e. the community, of which he forms part, he merits or demerits, inasmuch as he disposes his actions well or ill: just as if he were to dispense well or ill other belongings of his, in respect of which he is bound to serve the community." "How do you know that your blood is redder than the blood of your fellow?" WildstartwiththesummathologicaifyearechrisianorthetalmudifyearenotAlaska ™©2002-2010 |
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October 29, 2010, 01:18 PM | #239 | |
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October 29, 2010, 01:52 PM | #240 | |
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October 29, 2010, 01:53 PM | #241 |
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Well, around here the government builds most (but not all of the roads). The people don't build any.
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October 29, 2010, 02:44 PM | #242 | ||
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October 29, 2010, 03:00 PM | #243 | ||
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The role of government is to do what the people are unable to do themselves Or with more authority. Quote:
Things which we believe that is to the benefit all the people. An example is high school drivers ed. Not all people can afford to take a similar drivers ed class on their own, but we are better off if all potential drivers do so. Once again I am not a fan of using "morals" in this context. |
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October 29, 2010, 03:05 PM | #244 | |
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October 29, 2010, 04:58 PM | #245 | ||
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I don't see how examples of effective government training bolsters your point. |
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October 29, 2010, 05:13 PM | #246 | |
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October 29, 2010, 05:17 PM | #247 |
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Why doesn't the .gov spend the time and money to train all soldiers and police to the level of Sniper School students and the AMU team then
Last edited by smince; October 29, 2010 at 07:33 PM. |
October 29, 2010, 08:09 PM | #248 | ||||
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Legal restrictions are imposed on people from the outside to regulate their behavior. The obligations that the OP is talking about should be imposed from the INSIDE as a result of that person understanding the ramifications of owning and carrying a deadly weapon for the purposes of self-defense. Quote:
The point of the second paragraph in the OP is to move AWAY from state mandated training--"there's no reason for the state to get involved in the training issue". The whole idea that started this thread was that we should each, as responsible firearms owners/carriers SELF-impose training standards on ourselves with the standard being that we should get as much training as we can. That state imposed training standards for private carry when they are required at all don't meet the higher standard that we as individual responsible firearms owners should each impose on ourselves. Quote:
It also starts off by noting that it's only provided in some states in which statement is implicit the fact that it's not required/provided in other states. I suppose in that case it could be stated that it's worthless as it's difficult to argue that it has value when it doesn't exist.
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October 29, 2010, 11:07 PM | #249 |
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I'm sure this subject is near and dear to all of you, but to most it isn't. I do not know anybody in this community who does not have guns in their house, and it has been that way for generations. And, they have a pistol or two if they can remember where it is, or where they locked it away if they have children around. Other than hunting season most people don't give them a lot of thought. I'm sure they are aware that they are available for a home invasion or such, but it is so unlikely that nobody thinks about it much. So, when I see ownership/carry the ownership part throws up a flag with me.
Now, if you are talking about concealed carry in public places that is another level of responsibility. I have a concealed carry permit, but I have never carried in a public place and it is unlikely that I ever will. Of the dozen or so people with concealed carry permits that I know none of them carry with any regularity if at all. It was more of a convenience not having to go through a background check and avoiding a hassle if you happened to have a pistol in the car going or coming hunting and that type of thing. Obviously, where you live the hazards that you face can be entirely different. And, if you decide to carry everywhere you accept an entirely different level of responsibility. I can see no one size fits all consensus on a level of training, at least for the ownership/ part. |
October 30, 2010, 01:43 AM | #250 | |||
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Your argument seems a bit amorphous. First you say government is incapable of A. Then you seem to say while government is capable of A it sometimes doesn't succeed. Now you seem to be asking about a cost benefit analysis of A. What point are you trying to make? |
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