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View Poll Results: Is a .308 with a 16” barrel braked, too loud to be fun?
Way too loud to be fun to shoot at the range. 18 56.25%
It’s all good! Just don’t shoot next to someone you like. 8 25.00%
I have no idea, but I have to vote if there’s a poll! 6 18.75%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 26, 2018, 12:34 PM   #1
ice monkey
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16” Barrel on a .308

Does anyone have an AR-10 or a bolt in .308 with a 16” barrel? Do you have one with a muzzle break?

I’m pretty set on a .308 bolt gun with a 16.5” barrel, but I can’t resolve in my mind if it would be fun to shoot or not being it’s guaranteed increase in muzzle blast. I’ve read that it’s both a non-issue, and a major issue. I can’t seem to find any kind of consensus.

The plan is to put a break on it for range work, and take it off if hunting.

What says you? Meh, it’s all good! Or, what? What was it you said?


Please don’t talk about the loss in velocity, it’s not an issue for me.

Last edited by ice monkey; July 27, 2018 at 11:00 AM.
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Old July 26, 2018, 12:40 PM   #2
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If it helps, I have a 30-30 with a 16” barrel and I have no problems with it at all.
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Old July 26, 2018, 01:13 PM   #3
T. O'Heir
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Not fun to shoot because of the guaranteed increase in muzzle blast. Far too much velocity loss too. A muzzle brake redirects all that blast towards the shooter as well.
Read this. There are some actual numbers near the bottom.
https://rifleshooter.com/2015/02/the...-action-rifle/
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Old July 26, 2018, 01:37 PM   #4
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Thanks T.O’Heir.

I read that story actually, and that’s where some of my reservation comes from because I really like thier stories. It’s funny though, because they (rifleshooter) have more than a few stories on thier 16” .308s - and not ever story concludes the way the story you cited did with them citing it’s too loud. Odd.

Note too that the story you cited at the end is saying not too on a 300 Win mag.

Like I said, I don’t want to talk velocities but it seems it’s going to come up in spite of that, so i’ll ask this, “are velocities out of a 20” barrel 308 ok?” Because you’re only losing 100fps between a 20 and a 16 inch barrel. Look at the story - they show those numbers. I’m not toting a 27” .308 anywhere lol. So I’m thinking 16 inches is just fine lol.

Last edited by ice monkey; July 26, 2018 at 01:49 PM.
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Old July 26, 2018, 01:47 PM   #5
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I've shot 16" .308/7.62 guns with a brake, without a brake, and with a can.

While a brake enhances shooter control of recoil during rapid-fire strings, it definitely adds concussive lateral blast and absolutely will damage your hearing permanently in any 'real-world' shooting incident, especially if such took place inside a structure.

For competitive use (e.g., 3-gun matches), brakes have a place and can be advantageous.

Beyond match use, either run a shorty .308 unbraked or, better still, suppressed.
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Old July 26, 2018, 01:52 PM   #6
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@agtman. Thanks

Hey, does the point of impact change brake on vs break off?
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Old July 26, 2018, 02:05 PM   #7
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16" on a 308 would remind me of a bag of Skittles.
See the rainbo!!

Your not shooting FTR with a brake.
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Old July 26, 2018, 02:28 PM   #8
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Quote:
@agtman. Thanks. Hey, does the point of impact change brake on vs break off?
Depends on the brake, the rifle, and the ammo. Several variables.

I'd anticipate a 2" to 4" POI difference @ 100yds, but you'll have to shoot to find out.

Brakes also change barrel harmonics in terms of accuracy.

Again, several variables are in play including the shooter. I've seen braked rifles that shot more accurately once the brake was removed. I'm talking about intrinsic accuracy off a bench-rested position. You have to shoot your rifle like that, braked & unbraked, to determine these things. There's no one answer, and the same goes when you run a can.
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Old July 26, 2018, 03:18 PM   #9
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I shoot customers' rifles quite a bit, and I remember one particular 308 AR with an 18" barrel. Muzzle blast was unpleasant to say the least. Running it over a chronograph also showed some velocity loss, although you are still doing over 2,500 fps with 150 gr ball. So, not all bad, but the blast and velocity loss from a shorter barrel will increase the shorter the barrel gets. About 2 years ago, I shot a 14" 308 AR, and the muzzle blast was awful (didn't chrono that one, so I have no info on velocity).
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Old July 26, 2018, 04:38 PM   #10
ice monkey
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Thanks for all the replies so far gents.
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Old July 26, 2018, 05:02 PM   #11
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They are loud for the shooter, and absolutely suck for anyone around the shooter.

Go-to-War sniper rifle.


For general use: 18" minimum, prefer 20-24"




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Old July 26, 2018, 05:51 PM   #12
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I have a FN SPR in 308. The gun writer i bought it from, had the barrel cut to 18” and a sure-fire break/suppressor mount installed.

It just plain SHOOTS, but its loud wih just the break on. I kinda wish it had a 20-21” barrel
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Old July 26, 2018, 05:58 PM   #13
Bill DeShivs
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"Brake" guys- damn!
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Old July 26, 2018, 06:31 PM   #14
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Loud for sure, but not so loud as they're made out to be. Velocity loss for sure, but not so drastic as its made out to be, they're still pretty effective. Keep in mind there are some 12" .308s in limited military use.
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Old July 26, 2018, 07:27 PM   #15
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Its not that the MB directs it at the shooter, its that it directs it at adjacent shooters who have no choice.
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Old July 26, 2018, 07:46 PM   #16
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I've got a Socom16 with a muzzle brake, I think it's fabulous. Occasionally I'll be in the stall next to it, when someone else is test driving it, and it's not my favorite place to be. Granted, shooting surplus, the muzzle blast is a bit more than my handloads. Worst ammo I've ever shot out of it was some steel-cased Russkie ammos... not only did it blow a 8" flame straight up out of the brake, but the blast even at the shooter position was a bit much. Crazy Russians...

As an aside, I thought it was the loudest rifle in the range... until dude lined up next to me with a Mosin carbine and Russian ammo.
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Old July 26, 2018, 07:59 PM   #17
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My 18" 308 is 60 fps slower than my 22" 308's with the same loads. Noise with hearing protection is exactly the same. I seriously doubt 16" is terribly different.

Here are some other perspectives on barrel length.

https://www.longrangehunting.com/thr...elocity.19346/

http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/
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Old July 26, 2018, 08:24 PM   #18
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Did ANYONE actually read the link O'heir posted. It basically confirmed my own personal results. The 168 gr was only 95 fps slower from a 16.5" barrel than a 22" barrel. That is about 6" difference in bullet drop at 500 yards and only about 75 fps difference in velocity. If someone can figure out 65' of drop, 71" won't be a problem.

This data was collected using the same barrel as it was cut shorter, which is the only meaningful way to determine how much velocity is actually lost.

In another portion of the link they show 283 fps loss between a 22" barrel and a 16.5" barrel. But since they used 2 different guns the results are meaningless. I've seen 2 different rifles with equal length barrels shoot as much as 130 fps different. I've seen 20" barrels from one gun match velocity from 24" guns and beat 22" guns.

This isn't uncommon at all. I own two 3006 rifles. One is consistently 90 fps slower than the other with the same ammo. I own four 308's Two have 22" barrels, one is 20" and the 4th is 18" There is always 30-40 fps difference between the 2 with 22" barrels and the 20" gun matches the slower of the 2.
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Old July 26, 2018, 08:53 PM   #19
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I have a .308 bolt gun that's wearing a 17" Shilen barrel. After working with QuickLoad, I found a load that will launch a 168gn bullet at 2600 fps, and all the powder is burned around the 16" mark in the barrel. Unburned powder out the barrel is bad for accuracy, aside from being dissapointingly wasteful. I suppose the unburned powder may also increase muzzle blast/flash, but I'm not certain of that.

I ring steel out at 900 meters with this gun.

.308 Win is an excellent candidate for a short barrel. Rather, it does much better than many other cartridges when fired out of an unusually short barrel.

I don't shoot it much without a suppressor, but the gun wears a muzzle brake that the suppressor quick attaches to.

I say go for it, especially if you plan to reload for it.
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Old July 27, 2018, 07:45 AM   #20
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Shuff at Shuff's Parkerizing - the Mini-G guy - obtained similar results regarding velocity loss from his 16" conversions ... in .308, 30-06, and .35Whelen.

The drop-off in fps isn't as much as you'd expect going from a factory test barrel of, say, 24", to a real-world Mini-G with a 16.1" barrel. This was with factory ammo, not handloads.

In .308, a 150gn bullet with an average velocity of 2800fps from a 24" barrel was averaging a chronographed velocity of 2666fps from a Mini-G with a 16.1" Criterion barrel.

For short-range use, which is really what a 16" .30-cal 'carbine' is designed for, you give up nothing in killing power and gain significantly in portability and general handiness.

Sure, short, stiff 16" barrels can shoot accurately out to 500-yds, but Shuff relates that the Minis in 30-06 and .35 Whelen he builds for his Alaskan clients are sought by them as fast-handling, hard-hitting "bush guns" against big bears, moose, etc.

Last edited by agtman; July 27, 2018 at 07:55 AM.
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Old July 27, 2018, 11:10 AM   #21
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Interesting, I’d had of thought a shotgun or a good old lever in something like 45-70 or 444 would be the choice for guides way up north where the Browns live. A good shotgun or lever as a rule swings as nice or much nicer than a bolt, and generally speaking takes less practice getting that second shot off on target. Interesting.

If I was shadowing a friend in black bear country, I’m positive I’d be packing my 30-30 over any bolt I had. But then that might be premature, I still don’t have my 16.5” bolt lol.
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Old July 27, 2018, 11:51 AM   #22
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I have a Mossberg MVP in 308 with a 16.5" barrel. It's loud, but not enough louder that I object to it. It is about the same as my 300 mag. I never fire any of them without plug or muffs unless I am hunting.

When hunting I don't cover my ears, but I also don't shoot much. Most times it's one shot per animal. One of he elk I killed I had to shoot 2 times, but that's the only animal shot with this 308 so far that took more then one shot.

I have killed several antelope deer and elk with my MVP and I have no complaints ----- except for the fact that, like Remington, they have a safety that doesn't lock the bolt. 3 times now I have had the bolt come open when I am carrying the gun on the sling and it makes me mad at Mossberg, but I am going to make a locking bar and fit it to the safety, then make a slot on the bolt handle to fix that ill. (Ok...rant over...)

But the short barrel is not a problem to me. The rifles shoot quite well.

It does give up some velocity. No enough to concern me. The old 300 Savage and the 30-40 Krag were both very useful 30 cal rounds for hunting, and the 308 even with a 16" barrel about the same or maybe a smidgen better then either one of them, so I see no room to complain.
If I want more speed from a 30 cal bullet I'll carry a 30-06 with a 22" or 24" barrel, or a 300 mag with a 27" barrel.

But that just me.
Others have other preferences.
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Old July 27, 2018, 12:39 PM   #23
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I hear you re the bolt lock Wyosmith! I hear you.
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Old July 28, 2018, 10:17 AM   #24
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Folks have different perspectives and opportunities to shoot.

If "going shooting"means going to the local range and typically having someone shooting in the lane next to you,I can understand being low impact,considerate in choosing a rifle configuration.

And if I have a rifle that is loud,I'll take steps to be considerate.

But I generally do not design or conceive a build to be a range toy.I have another use for it.If that includes a 16 in bbl and or a brake,the only ears I'm concerned with are my own. I build the rifle to suit my purpose.

If you want a 16 in .308,do it
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Old July 28, 2018, 03:03 PM   #25
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"Like I said, I don’t want to talk velocities but it seems it’s going to come up in spite of that, so i’ll ask this, “are velocities out of a 20” barrel 308 ok?” Because you’re only losing 100fps between a 20 and a 16 inch barrel."

A 20" barrel is just fine. One time I had to shoot a deer my hunting partner wounded and the shot was at 426 paces when all was done and counted off. Rifle was a Remington 660 .308 Win. with 20" barrel. Load was the 150 gr.Sierra Pro Hunter over a stiff load of H335. It was back in 1973 so no velocity data available. Muzzle blast was very loud and I though recoil was way out of line. Ear plugs made the apparent recoil go away.

Another .308 Rifle I have is a Ruger M77 RSI with 18.5" barrel It took a while to find a load I would accept for hunting but I have taken quite a few deer with it from up close and personal (31 feet) to 250 yards). Velocity with the 165 gr. Speer Hot Core was only 2550 FPS using W760. (Don't ask, it's a long story) That same load does 2610 FPS from a 22" barreled Winchester M70.

Both rifles are very loud so I wear hearing protection with the built in speakers when hunting. I'm almost totally deaf in my right ear and the left ear is about half or more gone in the high frequency range so the muffs are mandatory for me. Nice thing is when it's +4 degrees F. on an elk hunt that keep my ears warm. Not all that bad a trade off.

One of these years I'll have to break out that 660 and try the 165 gr. load in it.
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