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Old November 13, 2017, 06:52 AM   #1
Pond, James Pond
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Acceptable accuracy?

Yesterday, I managed to get to the open air range for the first time in eons.

I'd been inspired by another member doing a test of the relative points of impact using different open sight settings such as the "battle zero" setting.

In my case I tested the "U" setting, as well as the "1", "2" and "3" on my VZ58.

I did this at 50m and 100m as this is all I could access. I shot steel-cased, bimetal jacketed 123gr Barnaul ammo, and in the case of the "U" setting I also tried 150gr powder coated reloads from Ares.

I won't go into too many details of the results as I think I may have to repeat the experiment.

In some cases I got half decent groups and I wanted to ask if members would consider these acceptable groups for a rifle such as the VZ.

As explained, the ammo is not the best and I am not so experienced with irons. As such I found I changed the point of aim as the day went by to counter for bullet drop and ease of aim.

So, do you think that a 8-shot group that is 3MOA with that ammo, from a VZ is satisfactory?
(I was sitting and resting the fore-grip on a rest, whilst pulling back on the magazine to get a firm contact with the shoulder.)
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Old November 13, 2017, 12:16 PM   #2
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3moa groups with cheap Russian ammo? 100m? From what is essentially a mil surp, combat focused (and at least at one time) select fire carbine?

Very acceptable.

Is there a 100m setting on the sight? If so, zero at 100m with that setting. In theory the rest of the markings will be accurate/zeroed at their respective distances.
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Old November 13, 2017, 12:54 PM   #3
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More than acceptable. That's proficient marksmanship with that rifle and ammo. You would be unlikely to do better with a professional bench rest and a good, rabbit-ear rear bag.
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Old November 13, 2017, 01:47 PM   #4
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With that rifle, and that ammo, 3 MOA is about as good as it gets.

One thing to ensure when trying to make an AK accurate, is if the bore is .311 or .308. I am not sure what the VZ58 is, but I have an acquaintance at the range who had an older AK that shot ok with some cheap surplus ammo, and then shot horrible with match grade ammo. Later he/we found out his barrel was .311 and somewhat worn so... that cleared that mystery up.
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Old November 13, 2017, 02:08 PM   #5
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With that rifle, and that ammo, 3 MOA is about as good as it gets.
Woo hoo!
That's great news because getting the VZ had started out as a real pain with the first being shot out (VZ here are essentially military issue guns that have the select fire group replaced and are then refinished.)

So it seems I got a good 'un! !
Sweet!
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Old November 13, 2017, 02:27 PM   #6
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I have a SAIGA .308, my brother has a VEPR .308. They are both great russian AK variants. They are both about 2.5 MOA at 100 yards. And these were brand new, never fired. As I explained in another thread, I have tried to see if it will shoot better with different re-loads...and the answer is mostly no, it will not.

I have a VEPR 7.62x39 also, it is a nice rifle. It was also new and what I consider a top of the line AK. It is about a 2.5-3 MOA gun with 20 shot groups.

So if you are getting a "true" 3 MOA out of an AK with bulk steel cased ammo, you have yourself a shooter.

im not saying a "true" 1-1.5 MOA AK doesn't exist somewhere, but I have never seen one.

By "true", I mean that it is ALWAYS 3 MOA or better...no fliers, no outliers that you cannot without a doubt blame yourself for.
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Old November 13, 2017, 02:42 PM   #7
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I seen one in a post on the internets!
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Old November 13, 2017, 03:24 PM   #8
Pond, James Pond
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By "true", I mean that it is ALWAYS 3 MOA or better...no fliers, no outliers that you cannot without a doubt blame yourself for.
Time will tell..
I am really inexperienced with iron sights and this rifle, TBH.

I've only shot about 300 rds and this was my first time at 100m so we'll see if it is reproduceable
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Old November 13, 2017, 04:00 PM   #9
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Yeah. My typical “acceptance test” for accuracy is if my palm can cover 3-4 round groups from a bagged rifle, unmagnified red dot and acceptable range ammo.
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Old November 13, 2017, 04:30 PM   #10
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Absolutely
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Old November 13, 2017, 09:28 PM   #11
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I seen one in a post on the internets!
Oh I have seen a lot of 1/2 MOA internet groups from an AK. I don't even bother chiming in on AK accuracy threads unless they appear honest like this one.

By design, the AK isn't conducive to tack driver accuracy. They are as reliable as a baseball bat because of how violently they feed, extract, and generous tolerances.

I really did try with my SAIGA and my and my Brothers VEPR to make an AK shoot MOA. I used match prepped and weight sorted Federal brass, BR-2 primers, Varget and Benchmark powders. Plus different match weight bullets from 150 gr to 180 gr (and several weights in between). And I single loaded them.

The best results were with the 168 gr Match King at about 2600 fps from a 16" rifle with Varget powder.... around 2 MOA IIRC.... and the worst groups were about 3-3.5 MOA.

So, my conclusion was an AK is a fine enough 150 yard hunting rifle with a solid load, and 2.5 MOA is pretty easy to achieve, but that's about all you can expect....Oh and is a great self defense rifle due to reliability. It's also a blast and cheap to plink with

But it will never be a national match rifle.
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Old November 14, 2017, 12:12 AM   #12
Pond, James Pond
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This was my best group. Some others were promising. Others were not.

This is why I want to do the test again at some point.

The problem is that I was getting confused about where to hold when I was at the different distance settings. This meant moving the POA within a group on a couple of occasions.

Also, my accuracy went up if I chose a POA that was easy to aim at such as the bottom of the target. COM was harder to group on. Again, I put this down to a lack of experience with irons.
My cumulative shots on this rifle are the sum total of my iron-sight experience!

As usual I'm trying to do too much with a single range visit.

And the muzzle flash.....!!
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Old November 14, 2017, 08:14 AM   #13
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The best I get on a really good day with my AR47 is just under 2", using a red dot over a shooting rest and good hand loads. So I'd definitely say you've done very well. My old MAC90 on the other hand in the same setup with iron sights is more like 6" give or take.
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Old November 14, 2017, 06:42 PM   #14
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Putting a bright colored circle sticker about 2in across on the target may help.

Until you are more experienced with the irons, holding consistent on a large solid color target can be hard.
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Old November 15, 2017, 02:35 PM   #15
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If I am satisfied with how often shots arrive at the target where I expected them at the distance I am shooting with the hold and stance I chose, then the accuracy is acceptable. The opinion of anyone else is only relevant if I am in a firefight with them and in that case it depends on who walks out of the woods and who gets airlifted bit by bit by the buzzards.
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Old November 17, 2017, 04:55 PM   #16
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On a Semi-Automatic BATTLE RIFLE... 4" is the limit with Iron Sights. That equates to 20" group at 500 yards(Or a average human torso). And if you can't shoot at 500 yards with a .308 battle rifle, you need to spend more time at the range.

Obviously, anything better is lovely.

And if you've the money, DEFINITELY get something better.

But 3MOA with surplus ammo, that's groovy. You know it'll do better once you find it's food of choice!
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Old November 17, 2017, 08:49 PM   #17
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You could hunt with it. As long as you are getting an ethical
kill zone, it's accurate enough for me. Also, very nice for a VZ.
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Old November 18, 2017, 02:04 AM   #18
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Mr Pond: that's good shooting.

With your type of winter just around the corner, it's nice that you made it again to the range.

I returned on Sunday from the largest gun show in the world (Wanenmacher's, Tulsa OK), and the only VZ-58s were Centurys, so I drove home with no rifle.

The only objective was to enjoy the largest show, and possibly find a D-Technik, CSA or Czechpoint (but for an ok price).

Guys: modern ammo--even if not precision ammo-- is Not surplus ammo.
Why do people still confuse the two terms?
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Old November 18, 2017, 07:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Guys: modern ammo--even if not precision ammo-- is Not surplus ammo.
Why do people still confuse the two terms?


Because they don't know any better. 20 years ago you could buy surplus ammo all over the place. The quality was also all over the place. I bought 1000 rounds of Portuguese 7.62x51 about 15 yrs ago that was surplus
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Old November 18, 2017, 05:50 PM   #20
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Well, thanks all for the positive feedback. One drawback: I have to reproduce those results again!!
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Old January 28, 2018, 02:30 PM   #21
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One drawback: I have to reproduce those results again!!
Me and my big mouth/keyboard!

I went to the range again today:
Snowy, cold and a slight wind blowing right to left.

Barnaul ammo, 100m and lowish light of dusk.

So I did NOT reproduce my earlier marksman performance!!

In fact the 4 groups were all 10" at their widest. 10"!!! Oh the shame!

The only laudable aspect for me is the consistency: the groups were 2 x 10-shot, 1 x 13 shot and 1 x 22-shot.

But still, a 10MOA 22-shot group is not a 3MOA 8 shot group.

I haven't given up, though!!
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Old January 28, 2018, 07:09 PM   #22
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Weather will play a big role... Hard to shoot half frozen.
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Old January 28, 2018, 08:00 PM   #23
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Was the vertical dispersion notably less than the horizontal? Sure, wind is variable, but even in the wind, the elevation should be constant.
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Old January 29, 2018, 07:50 AM   #24
Pond, James Pond
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Was the vertical dispersion notably less than the horizontal? Sure, wind is variable, but even in the wind, the elevation should be constant.
Not really. I'd say they were fairly circular groups. But all to the left of POA, so that would be the wind working.

I do think I can shoot better and last time I'd had more warm up before shooting that 3MOA, but I think perhaps it was still just a bit of luck. I know 8-shots is relevant, but stranger things have happened!!

I will say that by ignoring a single outlying shot from each group (each has one), they'd drop to about 7 or 8MOA... but I didn't call any shots as flyers.
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Last edited by Pond, James Pond; January 29, 2018 at 08:00 AM.
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Old January 29, 2018, 11:32 AM   #25
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I suggest single-loading without the magazine and having the rifle fully supported by sandbags. That makes it more of a test of the rifle, lessening your effect on group size.

I've always had the opinion that one's shooting skill is most important, once the rifle is sighted in. Since I've always been rather poor at offhand shooting at stationary targets, I find field positions for hasty rests and then see how I do.

I've never tried for groups in the field, but I've eaten a helluva lot of deer meat.
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