|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
September 4, 2012, 01:13 PM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 29, 2010
Location: The ATL (OTP)
Posts: 3,944
|
Potential Abuse of Virginia Permits
So, I read the attached article which basically details how people are obtaining Virginia no-resident permits via an on-line training source. So, initially this sounds good since it allows people to obtain permits for use in Virginia or that might be accepted by other states when they travel.
However, the potential issue is that some people are obtaining permits for use in their home state since the requirements are easier. For instance some Texas residents are obtaining Virginia permits with the intention of using it to carry in Texas since they have a reciprocal agreement. Personally I don’t think we should have to obtain a permit/license to exercise our rights, but even so this whole thing seems a little fuzzy. For instance people basically receive no training related to their actual state laws. Even in Georgia where no training is required my local Probate Court gave me a copy of the applicable laws. So, what do y’all think? http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/03...o-get-permits/
__________________
A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman |
September 4, 2012, 01:37 PM | #2 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
|
This came up last year, when a gun control shill (and Pulitzer prize winner) named John Crewdson wrote an article in which he described doing the same thing. However, I'm unclear as to whether or not an online training course fulfills the training requirement specified by Statute 790.06:
Quote:
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe |
|
September 4, 2012, 01:37 PM | #3 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
You believe that no permit should be required.
Do you believe that training in states laws should be required? If not, I see no issue here. If Texas has a problem with it, they can "fix" it. BTW, here, a permit and "training" is required. The legal training was 15 minutes long and consisted of the assistant DA telling us that we really didn't need to carry because our area is safe.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley |
September 4, 2012, 02:26 PM | #4 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 29, 2010
Location: The ATL (OTP)
Posts: 3,944
|
Quote:
__________________
A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman |
|
September 4, 2012, 02:41 PM | #5 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
I agree with you, for the most part, except I don't see it as "abuse". If Texas law requires training but ALSO recognizes VA permits without qualification, this too is Texas law, is it not?
As such, I see it as either/or. Texas requires training OR a permit which they recognize. I don't see abuse, I see options.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley |
September 4, 2012, 02:49 PM | #6 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 29, 2010
Location: The ATL (OTP)
Posts: 3,944
|
Quote:
__________________
A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman |
|
September 4, 2012, 03:23 PM | #7 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 7, 2000
Location: AZ, WA
Posts: 1,466
|
Quote:
__________________
Violence is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and valorous feeling which believes that nothing is worth violence is much worse. Those who have nothing for which they are willing to fight; nothing they care about more than their own craven apathy; are miserable creatures who have no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the valor of those better than themselves. Gary L. Griffiths (Paraphrasing John Stuart Mill) |
|
September 4, 2012, 03:50 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 18, 2011
Location: 609 NJ
Posts: 705
|
Some of us don't have the option of getting a CHL in our own state. For those of us states like UT,FL,AZ, and VA are a godsend! At least with my UT non-resident license I can carry when I travel.
__________________
"...with liberty and justice for all." (Must be 21. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states.) |
September 5, 2012, 10:51 PM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 24, 2011
Posts: 730
|
TX recognizes WA. WA requires NO training, online or not...why should that be a problem. The only requirement we have is you must appear in person.
|
September 6, 2012, 03:13 AM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
I don't see it as abuse, either; and, this type of bypass has been very helpful to the residents of Philadelphia, in particular. PA is a shall issue state, but Philly is the only city not preempted by state law, and Philly's may-issue is not user friendly. So, many Philly residents have used PA reciprocity in conjunction with other states' non-res permits.
|
September 6, 2012, 05:23 AM | #11 |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,434
|
Actually, Philadelphia IS preempted by PA state law, but the machine in Philadelphia just abuses the character clause in the shall issue statute to deny as many applicants as they can get away with denying.
|
September 6, 2012, 07:23 AM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
Is that new, AB? PA used to have a specific exemption for cities of the first class, which I think was defined as having a population over 1 million - and only Philly meets that criteria. Has this exemption changed, recently?
|
September 6, 2012, 07:55 AM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 6,141
|
Whatever you think of laws, clearly there is a direct correlation between the number of laws and the number of inhabitants. This has always been true since the days of Moses and Hammurabi. This has nothing to do with how well the laws are written or how well known the laws are. Early laws were written on stone tablets and placed in public view. This does not happen now.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds. |
September 6, 2012, 08:24 AM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 21, 2010
Location: Rome, NY
Posts: 941
|
Clearly, history should provide the answer to the question, which itself is fuzzy. Is the question that the training may not be adequate? Is the question that the result of the online training is the cause of more accidents? Is the question just an implication from people who constantly fault any firearm law that makes legal carry easier?
I don't know what the question is. The only thing I know is that the efficacy of the online training will not be known until we have some empirical evidence either postitive or negative. I have read of opponents of the idea that the "relaxed" training standard has caused an increase in non-resident applications and awarding of non-resident licenses. They imply this is bad, but they cite no increase in incidents. The increase in licenses is what they see as bad. So there's no answer because there's no clear question.
__________________
Jim Page Cogito, ergo armatum sum |
September 6, 2012, 11:13 AM | #15 | ||
Member
Join Date: March 4, 2009
Location: Albion, PA
Posts: 93
|
Quote:
The state has "preemption" meaning: Quote:
Aguila Blanca is correct that Philly does tend to abuse the character clause and deny issuing a LTCF for just about anything, including unpaid parking tickets. To the OP: I do not see it as abuse as others have said...just another option. |
||
September 6, 2012, 12:32 PM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 28, 2011
Location: Alaska
Posts: 206
|
Not a big deal. When I lived in Idaho the local police told me to get a Washington permit because it was far easier (no shooting test, less time) and Idaho accepted them. In WA, just do the paperwork, get fingerprinted and wait for delivery in the mail (at least that's how it was several years ago).
__________________
The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave. -James Burgh |
September 8, 2012, 01:35 AM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 24, 2011
Posts: 730
|
Isk: Still is the same in WA. Go to the Sheriff's office, fill out the app, pay the fee, get fingerprinted, and go home...the license will be in the mail, some counties are quicker than others...have heard that Kitsap Co will actually issue while you wait (same day). My county (Okanogan) mails them out the next day. Some counties intentially use the max allotted time (30 days for a resident, 60 days for a non-resident license)
|
September 8, 2012, 12:35 PM | #18 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,434
|
Quote:
|
|
September 8, 2012, 01:31 PM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,231
|
Florida does not have a reciprocity agreement for Virginia non resident permit holders
The state website also says that non resident holders should check with the reciprocal states to see if the honor non resident permits. With a permit from Texas I reciprocity with about 27 states. If you are a permit holder from some states Texas recognizes those permits even though they don't honor the Texas permit for states such as California, New York , Hawaii I really see no advantage to getting a Virginia non resident resident permit.
__________________
Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member |
September 8, 2012, 01:37 PM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 11, 2012
Location: Mountains of Appalachia
Posts: 1,598
|
This thread makes me appreciate the simple life here in the mountains of Virginia.
If I want to buy a gun, I fill out a form, pass an instant background check and walk out the door with it after I pay for it. It takes all of 10 or 15 minutes after the gun is chosen. I can carry a gun, lay it in my seat to take it with me as long as it is in the open. If I want concealed, I need to take a simple on-line gun safety course unless I am a current or former military or law enforcement member. I then go to the Clerk of the Court office, fill out a form and give them $50 for the paperwork and background check. I will receive the permit within 45 days (3 or 4 weeks is normal). |
September 8, 2012, 01:46 PM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,231
|
Here in Texas its pretty much the same I can carry in my vehicle as long as its concealed, Except I carry the pistol in one place and my insurance cards in another place. If I want to carry it in the seat next tome I fold up a towel and lay it over it.
__________________
Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member |
September 8, 2012, 01:48 PM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
AB, I stand partially corrected. Note that ChuckS agreed that the Philly CLEO's office uses any excuse to deny issue of permits.
|
September 8, 2012, 01:55 PM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,231
|
Even here in Texas in Harris county there was a DA who told the state of Texas he wasn't going to follow the state law on firearms and would continue to prosecute folks.
__________________
Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member |
September 8, 2012, 04:00 PM | #24 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,434
|
Quote:
|
|
September 10, 2012, 10:08 AM | #25 | |
Member
Join Date: March 4, 2009
Location: Albion, PA
Posts: 93
|
Quote:
Pennsylvania has requirements for neither mandatory firearms training nor for fingerprinting. So you would think, that because the Florida license is more expensive and requires finger prints and training that is would be considered "harder" to get; but Philly is the only county in Pennsylvania, to my knowledge, that requires you to submit your fingerprints before your application is accepted for processing. In Philly, the License to Carry a Firearm is in effect: May Issue; despite the attempts by state legislators to make the application process uniform throughout the state just a few short years ago. This disparity in treatment is one reason why folks get an out-of-state permit rather than their own states permit. |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|