Practicing with reloaded ammo

[Roland Thunder]

I am an avid re loader. Most of my reloading is for target and competition use. All of the unloaded bullets I have on my reloading bench are plated round nose 9mm. I am thinking of reloading some ammo to practice self defense. I normally use hollow points in my self defense. Problem is, it's hard to find reloading components right now, can't find any hollow points or RN's. Would I be better off buying some factory hollow points (if I can find them at the LGS) or just load some of my plated RN's at full power to use for self defense practice.

In other words, is there going to be a noticeable difference if I practice with plated RN's instead of hollow points

[TunnelRat]

If your point of impact between both your reloads and hollowpoints matches and they both function reliably I think using reloads for primarily is fine.


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[Aguila Blanca]

A few years ago, Winchester introduced an entire line of handgun ammunition in which they paired JHP self-defense loads with corresponding FMJ (typically flat point, IIRC) training rounds that cost less than the JHP self defense loads but had the exact same ballistics. In other words, the recoil is the same and they shoot to the same point of aim.

That's really all that counts. The paper target doesn't know or care what type of bullet makes the holes. Load bullets of the same weight as your carry ammo, adjust your loads to generate the same muzzle velocity as your carry ammo, and that's about as good as it gets.

[TunnelRat]

Speer Lawman I believe matches Speer’s Gold Dot options, at least in standard pressure. Federal American Eagle seems to match up to HST.


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[FireForged]

I doubt that the absolute difference between POI is ever going to matter in a self defense action. If you were talking about trying to shoot an elk at 900 yards, the style of projectile and powder charge would probably matter a lot more but not in a SD action within 25 yards.

I am simply talking about POI and not absolute ballistics. I am sure that there would be a slight but measurable difference in POI but at the same time, I personally don't think it would likely ever matter.

[gwpercle]

Yes ... there is going to be a noticeable difference !
The plated RN's bullets will be much cheaper , thus allowing you to load and practice more .
You will see a noticeable improvement in your ability...some one once said ... "practice makes perfect ! "
Load a similar weight bullet to a similar velocity and practice away . No sense spending money on expensive JHP bullets if you are just practicing on paper targets ... the target will not know the difference .
Gary

[RaySendero]

TunnelRat wrote:
If your point of impact between both your reloads and hollowpoints matches and they both function reliably I think using reloads for primarily is fine.

THIS !

I took some platted bullets and a powder I always have on hand,
reloaded a powder ladder in duplicates, shot this ladder & my SD load
on the same target at 10 yds.
Picked the powder charge that gave me the same POI.
Now I practice and plink with the less expensive reload.

[FireForged]

I think you guys are overintellectualizing the process. This sounds like one of those threads where someone who carries a +p load feels that the sky is falling if you don't practice with a +p equivalent. I just cant get on board with that being some sort of big deal. To me, its not.

I wont say that there isn't a difference, sure there is. I am just not inclined to believe that the difference is worth any handwringing. If a particular ammo will run reliably in my gun, I will train with it. It is almost always going to be a 115 FMJ of roughly standard pressure ( or at least claiming to be standard pressure)

[TunnelRat]

The ammunition that I use at the range or training doesn’t have to be the exact same bullet weight or the exact same velocity. When I say “point of impact matches”, I mean not a noticeable difference between the two. That doesn’t mean I bring my calipers to the range, it just means I use my eyes. In carrying 124 gr +P ammunition I have found a number of ammunition types that have similar enough POIs. Really the only time I noticed a difference is when I compared 147 gr loads to what I was carrying. Now is that difference going to result in a problem at the ranges of most self defense encounters? Maybe or even probably not, but seeing as I don’t find it difficult to find ammunition that satisfies my same POI requirement, I still like to see it anyway on the off chance of a longer shot being necessary. I also tend to avoid powder puff-like loads as I think they build a false sense of confidence.

If the above process is overly intellectual, I’m okay with it. It’s how I’ve chosen to do things, and seeing as the OP asked for opinions I simply shared what it is I do. I didn’t state that if the OP didn’t do as I do that the sky would fall.


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[ms6852]

You could also practice/train with your reloads and just before your training ends just shoot one magazine of your self defense load so that your muscle memory remembers the recoil and you see exactly where impact occurs. This way you could make several trips to the range using only one box of self defense rounds.

[URIT]

If I were reloading for SD drills, I'd use the cheapest options available.

In the last ten years, there seems to be too much attention on bullet weight or type along with the velocity that the primary self-defense focus gets lost on the secondary minutia. For me, my SD drill focus remains on a strong, solid grip that allows multiple shots on target without changing the attitude of the gun.

I'm pleased when I can cover my shot group with my hand.

[Cheapshooter]

Shootin' is shootin. Practice with what ya got, or can get. Ain't gonna make a hill of beans difference. Self defense shooting isn't bullseye target match shooting anyway.

[dyl]

In other words, is there going to be a noticeable difference if I practice with plated RN's instead of hollow points

There could be. I think you might be approaching this backwards because you are a reloader (so am I). You would want to start with your chosen carry load. Check that Point of Aim corresponds to Point of Impact for your carry gun, or at least to an acceptable and predictable degree.

*then* you go trying to simulate chosen round with bullet weight and powder charge if you want it to be similar. Hollow point or not, the paper won't know the difference. Maybe the steel target will by how many fragments come back at you.

Loading assembled hollow point rounds for drills would tell you this: Do the hollow points feed correctly? - BUT, remember you have already tested this with factory loads because it was part of your process when you chose your carry round. So there's no reason (in my opinion) to duplicate your carry load with expensive projectiles if you've tested your carry load. Simulate point of impact and recoil with cheaper components.

It can make a difference. For example, if your chosen carry load is one of those super light high velocity LeHigh defense or Liberty Defense loads, those always shoot off of point of aim for me, something like 1-2 inches from my carry guns which all have short barrels. So if I go practice with 147 grain, and carry 90 grain sintered bullets, sure I'll get better at the fundamentals of pistol but I'm missing out on other benefits. If you want to go down the rabbit hole further, you could argue that you should train your cadence to balance accuracy and speed for your chosen carry load and stick with that.

[shafter]

You probably won't notice any difference as long as they shoot the same. Lots of people train with cheaper FMJ ammo and only use the expensive stuff once in awhile.

[GE-Minigun]

There isn't a difference IF the recoil impulse is the same, you wouldn't want to practice with 9mm 115 "plinking" load if your carry load is a 124 +P+.

[pete2]

I have 115 gr HP hand loads in my pickup gun, I practice with 124 RN hand loads. Their isn't much difference in recoil or where the bullet impacts the target, it doesn't matter. Both loads need to be totally reliable and you have to be able to hit your target. In a S/D load you don't have to hit a 2" bullseye at 50 yards. The gun is a Ruger LC9 so recoil is a little stout with all ammo so you learn to hold tight and at S/D distances, it works with either ammo. I usually shoot at 15 yards and under at IDPA targets, after 15 Yards all my shots don't hit the zero down circle... The Elcie is a belly gun.........I shoot it about like my 642 revolvers.

[Cheapshooter]

There isn't a difference IF the recoil impulse is the same, you wouldn't want to practice with 9mm 115 "plinking" load if your carry load is a 124 +P+.

Why not? Again, another case of over thinking. In a defensive shooting situation you, tye gun, or tye attacker you are defending against aren't going to know any difference.

I think you guys are overintellectualizing the process.

Says it all!

[Swifty Morgan]

If you have to practice with your carry gun, using the same ammunition you use for self-defense, why is it okay to practice with other guns? Why is it okay to practice with a .22?

What if I shoot 3,000 .22 rounds in practice, but only 150 carry rounds?

[dyl]

I would agree that the mechanics of what one does is the same on the first shot after the draw regardless of the ammo. However, placement could still be affected based on the load and cadence required for accurate shooting.

Some defensive shootings are not belly gun distance. I'm thinking of two church shootings, a head shot with a single round on the man that had the shotgun, and the one where the two citizens chased the man in a truck afterwards. Muggings will be pretty close, but who knows what we'll face? If a man is breaking down a door I'd rather not stand at belly gun distance. The benefit to training with consistent equipment is that you don't *have* to think as much if you set it up right, in order to reap extra benefits of consistency. No Kentucky windage when you switch to your carry load. Like setting up dies for a load you already worked up before you start running your progressive. I've had "hyper" velocity ammo that shoots a spread of several inches in my carry guns, and that's at 7 yards.. I'm already not the best shot so adding in a couple inches of error could easily contribute to a miss in an emergency.

[dyl]

If you have to practice with your carry gun, using the same ammunition you use for self-defense, why is it okay to practice with other guns? Why is it okay to practice with a .22?

There are some fundamentals to pistol shooting that are not specific to a given pistol or caliber. There will still be some gains in practicing other pistols or calibers. Some skills are perishable and some bad habits come back.

Flinching / anticipation (for those more sensitive to certain words) - is a healthy reflex in any other context. Big explosion coming? Normally yes: brace yourself, close your eyes to prevent debris from getting in your eyeball. Not so good in pistol shooting. You need your eyes focused on the front sight or target depending on who you ask and what technique you are using. You need follow through which is also not natural.

Trigger control despite explosions. Consistent grip that applies consistent muscle contraction despite explosions. Good stance, good posture, training the eyes to pick up the sights despite explosions.

Switching to a 22 can somewhat isolate those things so you can build fundamentals with less distraction. Then applying those to a given centerfire is easier. Asking someone to learn to shoot on something that is perceived to be unpleasant probably make them quit early on.

It's like cross training in sports. Can learning to master one sport be beneficial to other sports? To a certain degree yes. You won't have the specific skills / technique, but conditioning, agility, balance, coordination, mindset, would benefit. Probably won't find the captain of the basketball team being picked last when it's time to make teams for dodgeball.

[Swifty Morgan]

I agree with what you say, but it doesn't explain why it's okay to practice with a .22 but not okay to practice with target ammo in your carry gun. The things that transfer from target ammo to defensive ammo are the same things that transfer from a .22 to your carry gun. That goes for both helpful things and destructive things.

The idea that you have to practice with your defensive ammo implies that you won't be adjusting your sights or changing your point of aim. If it were okay to do those things, then it wouldn't matter which ammo you used, because you would compensate. People who say you have to use the same ammo clearly expect you to have everything set up the same way, and to shoot the same way, regardless of what ammo you're using.

They can't seriously expect a person who owns 20 pistols to leave the sights alone for all types of ammo and think, "Okay, this one shoots 3 inches to the left at 30 feet," during a crisis.

When I shoot in my backyard, I use whatever I want, and I always use the same technique. The results are about the same, shooting at up to 60 feet. I would have to be shooting some very weird stuff to see a big difference at defensive ranges.

I've seen Paul Harrell change ammo and get a 4" change in the POI from a long way off. I think he shoots at 25 yards. I think that is wonderful accuracy and something very, very few cops could manage in a real gunfight.

I doubt the advice about practicing with the same ammo pans out very often in real life. If anyone has a true story about someone missing because of an ammo problem, it would be interesting to hear it.

[TunnelRat]

For myself, I don’t find practice with a 22 particularly telling of a person’s performance with centerfire cartridges. When I introduce people to shooting I always start with a 22, pistol or rifle. It’s been my experience that those people are often surprised at how mild a 22 can be, to the point where they remark that they’ve used things in the past that were harsher. When I move them to a 9mm then the flinches and the recoil anticipation comes out. I do agree that going back to a 22 can expose faults in your fundamentals and certainly there are many very capable shooters that use 22s, but getting used to recoil is a part of shooting that can often be harder for people to overcome than the fundamentals, in my experience.

I have not been in a shooting, but I have done force on force. In my experience while I did have to fight tunnel vision and adrenaline and the different situations seemed to pass very quickly, recoil was still a thing. I still had to control the pistol while shooting in a way that allowed me to deliver hits. Whether I was focusing on that fact or not at the time, had my ammo been notably more or less powerful and the recoil differed accordingly it still would have affected my performance. We can argue how much it would have affected my performance, but it wouldn’t have had no effect. In one particular scenario I did mash that trigger and blast away. I ended up missing the assailant and the fight kept going. I had to force myself to focus on that front sight and actually make hits. This wasn’t a long distance engagement either. It was at a distance I’d normally find very easy at the range. It’s for these reasons that I personally avoid using loads for training that are much softer than my carry ammo. In the current ammo shortage that might not always be possible and budgets are what they are, I get that. It’s something that in that case I’d just try to keep in mind and understand that my actual performance with carry ammo might be different.

A note on adjusting sights by load, this isn’t something I personally do. The majority of the sights I have on my pistols aren’t elevation adjustable and are only drift adjustable for windage. That’s a fair point that you could simply adjust your sights accordingly for POI shifts, though many service pistols or concealment pistols aren’t sold with fully adjustable sights.


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[pete2]

You should be able to do head shots at 7 yards even with a 642 revolver, that's 21 feet. Really should be doable at 10 yards. If you can't you should practice til you can. I'm not likely to take a head shot unless no other option. I can do heads at 25 with a service revolver but under pressure of a self defense situation, I don know. 25 yards it a stretch for self defense. More likely 1 to 7 yards.

[zplinker]

One time, at a two day PPC match, I went prepared for two 60 round courses of fire in duty gun, so I took 150 rounds. Turns out, they were implementing a new, 150 round duty gun match, so I shot up all my ammo the first day. The second day, I scrounged around among the assorted shooters, and came up with another 150 rounds, everything you can imagine. And I shot the same score as the first day! Granted, this match only went out to 25 yds., but there was no appreciable difference, with my scores being high in the expert class.

[Cheapshooter]

Some defensive shootings are not belly gun distance. I'm thinking of two church shootings

Two isolated incidences among thousands of self defense shootings isn't really a reason to "overintelectualize" on what ammo to practice with.
Why worry about bullseye accuracy on a stationary target when in self defense use the target will be moving, jumping, charging, grabbing, punching, stabbing, shooting, or who knows what else.
All those shots fired on paper that are an inch or two off point of aim aren't going to be of any significance anyway.