what revolver did police use to carry?

[Glenn Dee]

The NYPD dont issue anything, you have to purchase your firearms.

[geartow]

There were Charter Arms Police Bulldogs carried by a department here in Western Pa. I have my Grandfathers he was a officer there . Best i can figure is they used 158 lead round nose as there was several boxes of those, but also found was a full box of S & W 110 JHP ammo. Do not know if they were issue or individual bought.

[agtman]

The answer will depend heavily on what department and what specific time period you're referring to. * * *

Correct - how far back does the OP mean by "back in the day"?

From 1964 or '65 through the late 1970s, some U.S police agencies issued or approved - and some number of real "Dirty Harry"-types carried - this bad boy.*

It's like a Model 10 that overdosed on steroids ...

S&W Model 58, .41 Magnum.
Shown with the 210gn lead FN "police load" x6, commonly known on the streets as the "thug thumper."


Some interesting S&W wall art from back in the day ...



*See also Bill's post above (#65).

[Stephanie B]

Circa 1923 S&W Model 1905, 4th Change, that was reportedly surplused from the Jacksonville, FL PD in the 1960s and purchased by the officer that it had then been issued to:

[SansSouci]

My guess is the the Model 10, made legendary by LAPD, was most popular followed by the Model 15.

[SansSouci]

agtman,

What departments authorized .41 & .44 Mag cartridges? I know of none, but I lived & worked in So Cal. I'm am aware of at least one agency the authorized the S&W Model 25 in .45 Colt, which was an extremely efficacious bad guy cartridge without excessive recoil & muzzle blast of magnums.

The .38 Special FBI load rescued the .38 Special from antiquity.

[agtman]

What departments authorized .41 & .44 Mag cartridges? I know of none, but I lived & worked in So Cal. I'm am aware of at least one agency the authorized the S&W Model 25 in .45 Colt, which was an extremely efficacious bad guy cartridge without excessive recoil & muzzle blast of magnums.

True that, on the Model 25 in 45LC. I had a 4" M25 long ago and after a while stupidly sold it. Wish I had it back.

Anyway, on the .41 Mag, Bill's post above (#65) listed some of the PDs that issued or authorized it. I remember specifically that the M58 was the duty revolver issued for a few years by the San Antonio PD.

[samsmix]

^ it seems like I once heard of Detroit issuing it.

[BillCA]

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

Also, there was a small move to SW 41 mag revolvers. San Antonio, Amarillo, San Francisco, North Carolina Highway patrol, San Jose, Dallas, some places in Wyoming - if Google searches are to be believed.

I seem to recall reading that a couple of Detroit officers had .41 Mags.
Also, Honolulu (of all places) followed SFPDs policy of allowing motorcycle officers carry them if they could qualify with them.

At one time I had five photocopies of newspaper clippings describing 4 different police shootings with the .41 Mag. Much too small of a sample size to be a valid study, but in each case a single hit stopped the bad guy.

Until about 10 years ago, one of the clerks at my local gun shop used to hunt wild pigs with his. He used a medium-hardness cast 210 grain Keith style bullet at 1075 fps from his 4" Model 57 on pigs up to 250 pounds and claimed having to shoot twice was a rarity.

[agtman]

Not to stray off-topic, but for BillCA or any hardcast reloaders here who might know:

What's the best .41-cal 210, 215, or 220gn hardcast boolit for shooting at "police load" velocities that won't lead up the barrel? Would it have to be one of the coated types?

Thanks.

[walks with gun]

Up north here in the late 70'-mid 80's the Ruger security six was pretty popular along with a few Ruger Speed Six's, but most guy's carried a M19 or M10.

[camsdaddy]

A Sheriff in our neighboring county carries a 4" 586. I asked him about it one day and he just laughed and said his men carry Glocks but he chooses to keep his 586. Mentioned anytime his guys give him grief he takes them to the range and then they go back to work. I'm pretty sure he is the type of guy that could carry Highpoint in a Serpa holster and be just fine. Of course this is a small rural dept.

[BIGR]

S&W Model 686 in .357 Magnum of course.

[ballardw]

AGTMAM asked

Not to stray off-topic, but for BillCA or any hardcast reloaders here who might know:

What's the best .41-cal 210, 215, or 220gn hardcast boolit for shooting at "police load" velocities that won't lead up the barrel? Would it have to be one of the coated types?

To my recollection the "police loads" were a soft swaged 210grn bullet designed for around 850 to 900FPS. Those leaded terribly when pushed at all.
The one box of Remington bullets I bought were also covered in a gooey grease and black colored lubricant. I didn't try to find any more after shooting those. Any hard cast should duplicate them quite well with little leading at those velocities.

[agtman]

To my recollection the "police loads" were a soft swaged 210grn bullet designed for around 850 to 900FPS. Those leaded terribly when pushed at all.
The one box of Remington bullets I bought were also covered in a gooey grease and black colored lubricant. I didn't try to find any more after shooting those. Any hard cast should duplicate them quite well with little leading at those velocities.

Okay, thanks!

[BillCA]

To my recollection the "police loads" were a soft swaged 210grn bullet designed for around 850 to 900FPS.

True, although they were pushed to about 1100 fps from a 6" barrel. Leading was bad in the 4" barrels too. I had to clean my Model 58 after about 30 rounds and would see lots of lead "flakes" from the bore.

Experienced bullet casters will tell you that you don't need a really hard bullet to go over 1000 fps to avoid leading. In fact, a bullet too hard can lead just as badly as a soft one. It's more important that the bullet fit the bore's groove diameter. If the bullet fits the bore correctly it will seal the bore when fired. Bullets that are not round, not properly sized or contain casting flaws around the base are likely to leave leading regardless of hardness.

Pure lead has a Brinell hardness (BHN) of 5 and will definitely lead the bore due to the heat at the base vaporizing the soft lead as it moves. Casting a bullet between 12 BHN and 18 BHN allows it to obturate - or deform under pressure - to seal the bore without vaporizing. A bullet too hard -- >20 BHN -- will fail to obturate and allow hot gases between the bullet & bore. The high pressure gas will burn & vaporize lead and leave a film in your rifling.

[BillCA]

We now return to our normally posted topic.

A lot of discussion has been posted about the revolvers police carried in them old days of the 60s and 70s. But one sub-topic has not been discussed.

Police women. Police Matrons as they were sometimes called.

In the post-war years women were employed in small, but growing numbers, in larger agencies like the LAPD, NYPD, et al. Often times these women were not at all familiar with firearms and very many found it hard to qualify with a standard (or issued) .38 Special revolver.

These women were not "street cops" as we might see today, but worked under "special assignment" a lot. They handled searching and transporting female suspects/prisoners; they worked with the Juvenile Division taking care & custody of minors, whether they were victims, suspects, or were lost, abandon or runaways. They would also aid investigators when a woman was needed in an investigation, stakeout or other need.

Since these women officers were, in theory, sort of "second string" or auxiliary officers, some agencies allowed them to qualify with and carry a revolver chambered for .32 S&W Long.


A pair of S&W Model 31-1, .32 Regulation Police revolvers

Given their limited roles in police departments up through the 1970s and because they usually worked with male officers as back-up, their .32 Long revolvers were usually "good enough".

[TheFriendlyMarksman]

K frames and small Colts mostly. Some carried bigger N frame 357s and 41 mags, but the most common cop gun was the 38.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

No need to say something that has been well documented earlier.

Let's give new info or significant additions to older info.

For example, adding the bit about 32's is interesting. Saying that the most common gun was a 38 - we knew that.

[BillCA]

Of course we're talking about American police usage for the most part.

The French developed their own domestic .357 Magnum for police work.

The Manurhin M-73 .357 Magnum revolver

European police have a long history of arming their local constabulary with some kind of .32 ACP pistol. It's more a symbol of authority than something you plan to use against a rampaging angry man with a pitchfork.

[jetinteriorguy]

That Manurhin is a gorgeous looking gun. Is that a grip safety on the front of the grip?

[Glenn Dee]

In the NYPD up until 1970 women officers were titled police women and were assigned to the policewomans bureau, men were patrolmen, and both could be assigned as a detective.

In 1970 both men and women became entitled as a police officer. Women were assigned to the patrol bureau. The women of the past wore a different hat and a uniform with a skirt. They carried their firearms and handcuffs in a purse with a built in regulation holster and a cuff case. Their revolvers were .32 J frame revolvers. With the change of status the women changed to a very similar uniform to the men, They also updated their firearms to a five shot J frame model 36 with a three inch heavy barrel and square butt. They looked exactly like a shrunken model 10. They carried them in smaller regulation holsters.

These little guns became very popular with guys as well. Many of us in soft clothes got them to carry off duty and as second guns. Probably sometime in the late seventies or early eighties Women began carrying full sized model 10's either round or square butt.

[BillCA]

jetinteriorguy, I think you're just seeing the front of the grip frame between the halves of the wood grips.

[CajunBass]

Back in the late 20, or early 30's, police officers recognized the need for a more powerful cartridge to deal with criminals driving automobiles, wearing "bulletproof" vests, and armed with every type of weapon you can imagine including Thompson submachine guns, and BAR's. In response to this need, Smith & Wesson, introduced a souped up version of the 38 Special intended to be fired only in a new revolver made on the 44 Special frame. Since it was a 38 on a 44 frame, it was called, logically, the 38/44. Introduced originally as a fixed sight gun, with (at least) 4, 5, and 6" barrels, and later an adjustable sight version the "Outsdorsman" was a added to the line. Call it a "pre-357" sort of.

This one was shipped in late 1946, or early '47.





I doubt any agency issued them. They were/are big, heavy and certainly expensive. But I suppose it reasonable to assume some did indeed find their way into law enforcement holsters.

Smith & Wesson continued to catalog them until the middle 60's or so, as the Model 20 (fixed sight) and Model 23 (adjustable sight).

[alaskabushman]

My grandpa was a county deputy in Washington state for 36 years, and he always carried a S&W Model 66 in a spring loaded clamshell holster. When his department switched to semi-autos in the late 80's, he was exempted and carried his wheelgun till he retired in '95.