What would be the best Milsurp Rifle? - Page 2

kadima · January 26, 2011, 08:37 AM

Beg to differ, about the K31.
It was never shot in a battle, this is true, but in the true spirit of "Si vis pacem para bellum" it was one or more K31 (or K11) in each Swiss home that allowed the Confoederatio to remain free during IIWW....

K.

Tikirocker · January 26, 2011, 09:00 AM

Quote:

It was never shot in a battle, this is true

Exactly ... in my view it's not a battle rifle or a rifle in the same class as those fielded by the Allied and Axis combatants of WW2; it didn't feature.

Tiki.

Gunplummer · January 26, 2011, 09:25 AM

If you want to shoot them, add an M-1 Carbine, the ammo is reasonable.

jsmaye · January 26, 2011, 09:37 AM

Quote:

...I don't really class the K31 as a Milsurp ... as it was not used by a combatant nation and never really saw dedicated action - it's a nice target rifle, but not really a legit battle rifle...

A distinction without a difference - it is a milsurp because it is a military surplus.

Tikirocker · January 26, 2011, 09:55 AM

Quote:

A distinction without a difference - it is a milsurp because it is a military surplus.

Many collectors of WW1 and WW2 Military surplus don't class it as a legitimately tested battle rifle. As a matter of semantics, it can be claimed that it is ex military and therefore a Milsurp. Closer examination of the issue reveals that it didn't serve with the same distinction as the main battle rifles of the Allied and Axis forces of either WW1 and WW2 and that is why the distinction can be, and often is made. So yes it is a Milsurp ... but the term Milsurp for many collectors is synonymous with rifles that saw service with a major combatant.

Tiki.

simonkenton · January 26, 2011, 09:58 PM

The best milsurp rifle?

Swedish Mauser, hands down.

Cheapshooter · January 26, 2011, 10:06 PM

Quote:

"the greatest battle implement ever devised" by General George S. Patton,

M1 Garand

That being said, and considering the relatively high cost I would say for a beginning collector any of the afore mentioned lower priced rifles are good starters.

Ignition Override · January 29, 2011, 01:16 AM

Milsurplover: If you can shoot well with the old open sights, you can buy a really good/exc. Yugo 24/47 Mauser, or 48 for about $200-250. The surplus ammo should still be about .25/rd., as it was last spring.
A company now advertises that their rear scope mount requires no (perm.) alteration for a short scout scope.

GregM:
I missed your comments earlier about the "Jungle Carbine".

You had 'stolen my thunder', and finally saw where you state that it is also your favorite rifle.
Just in case you are not too far, visits to my brother's outdoor club by Evansville always includes an Enfield #5 and the SKS.

Volucris · January 30, 2011, 12:31 AM

For cost vs performance easily the K-31 or a Swedish Mauser in 6.5 Swede.

Garands are wonderful rifles but they are still very expensive from people being too proud of labels.

Glenn Bartley · January 30, 2011, 09:03 PM

I have a Mossberg M44, in .22LR, that was a military issued trainer and which I bought from the CMP as military surplus. Most people do not think of a rifle in .22LR as milsurp, but if they were military trainers then indeed they are milsurp. As for the M44, it is a great rifle, accurate as a tack driver, and was not that expensive. I do imagine though they have gone up in price more than a little bit since I got mine several years ago.

I also have a couple of Mosin Nagants - one M44 and a 91/30, a Yugoslavian SKS, and a Yugoslavian M24/47 in 8mm Mauser. M24/47 is pretty accurate and a strong rifle. I like it a lot. All are great rifles. I also owned a couple other SKS's and another Nagant M44 but sold them. Those are the milsurp rifles I can speak to through ownership. Of all of them, the Mossberg M44 is by far the best quality rifle and the best shooter.

I would like to pick up a decent Enfield, bought a couple but returned them to the dealer because the crowns were badly scraped, sure would like another in nice shape.

As for the best overall, I have not tried enough of em yet to be able to answer and any answer I could give would be very subjective to personal likes and dislikes.

All the best,
Glenn B

.300 Weatherby Mag · January 30, 2011, 09:09 PM

No love for the Arisakas on the accuracy front?? My type 38 is scary accurate... My remington built Mosin Nagant m91 is really accurate and only the M39 Finn is comparable in the Mosin Family...

sirsloop · February 2, 2011, 10:45 AM

1903a3... awesome awesome rifles!!

finloq · February 3, 2011, 12:46 PM

Wow! Favorite (in my collection)?

History:
1895 Chilean M95 Mauser
1939 Soviet (Finnish capture) Tula Mosin 91/30
1917 LSA Enfield No.1 Mk. III

Accuracy:
1945 Long Branch Enfield No.4 Mk.I*
1954 Spanish FR8
1954 Romanian Mosin M44
1954 HRA M1 Garand

Just Plain Neat:
1945 Fazakerly No.5 Mk.I
1907 Soviet (Czech rework) Izhevsk Mosin 91/38
1942 Sako (1898 Sestroryetsk) Mosin M39
1904 Hopkins & Allen 12guage

Buzzcook · February 3, 2011, 02:19 PM

Quote:

it was one or more K31 (or K11) in each Swiss home that allowed the Confoederatio to remain free during IIWW....

That and being a manufacturing center for the Third Reich.

If we eliminate the K-31 then would we have to do the same thing to the Swedish Mauser?
What counts as enough military use?
The 6mm Lee Navy saw some limited use. Nothing like the Krag and the Krag was limited to a brief war and police actions. The French MAS 49 didn't see much action.
If we go back to the black powder age there are several rifles that only saw colonial action (keeping the natives in their place).

Personally I think the Swedish Mauser should be near the top of any list of quality milsurps. We should base our opinions on the quality of the rifle not that is chanced to be involved in a conflict.

Tikirocker · February 3, 2011, 03:34 PM

Quote:

We should base our opinions on the quality of the rifle not that is chanced to be involved in a conflict.

Nobody has questioned the quality of the K31, on the contrary, what is in question is its legitimacy as a battle proven rifle within some circles of collecting and shooting communities. There is no room for straw men here ... the issue has nothing to do with quality, but rather legacy.

Tiki.

Buzzcook · February 3, 2011, 05:28 PM

Tikkirocker this is from the OP

Quote:

I want to get your opinions of what the best milsurp would be in terms of accuracy, availability, ammo cost and how easy it is to find, and spare parts assuming the rifle is too expensive to just replace if it breaks.

And here's you.

Quote:

the issue has nothing to do with quality, but rather legacy.

Imho the OP intended this thread to be about quality, not legacy, hence my post.

Tikirocker · February 3, 2011, 05:59 PM

Err no ... here's me ...

Quote:

Get em all, one of each ... that's where my collection has gone but my main area of interest is the Enfield rifles. I have out shot scoped modern rifles from the off hand position at 200 yards at my range using my 1942 Lithgow No1 MkIII* using irons ... much to the chagrin of those further down the line. No problems with accuracy and Enfields, I load my own ammo as well.

( I don't really class the K31 as a Milsurp ... as it was not used by a combatant nation and never really saw dedicated action - it's a nice target rifle, but not really a legit battle rifle )

Tiki.

My comments regarding the K31 were an aside, I was making a distinction since the OP may want a rifle that has a proven combat record, both practically and historically speaking. As I said ... no room for straw men here.

I also stated get em all, because many collectors I know have rifles of just about every type - including yours truly. Any rifle can be accurized with care and attention and parts and ammo can be found for all of them as well. The answer to the OP's question is 'how long is a piece of string?'. I gave my two penneth.

If you can't abide differing views you may want to direct your replies to someone else.

Tiki.

Buzzcook · February 4, 2011, 12:37 AM

Quote:

If you can't abide differing views you may want to direct your replies to someone else.

I thrive on disagreement. I am personally a very disagreeable person

You seem to have a similar trait.

Tikirocker · February 4, 2011, 05:07 AM

Quote:

I thrive on disagreement. I am personally a very disagreeable person

You seem to have a similar trait.

Well now, it appears we've found a common trait - perhaps we can be friends after all ...

Tiki.

LtMiller · February 4, 2011, 10:33 AM

If you have the means, collect them all; if your shooting, consider your ammo expenses, esp. exotic calibers. I started collecting them a few years back, but finally, accepted my mistake; I should have collected M1s and M14s, the real battle rifles, and they are a beauty, and a joy to shoot at the range or in the field, plus 30-06 and 7.62x51 are easy to reload. I started teaching a batch of youths to become riflemen using .22s; they are now ready for the M1A (M14 clone), this Summer. These 2 rifles are my life (my partner) and I will be sharing them to this future riflemen. Part of the lesson will be the M14 receivers, I have in my collection, that was destroyed by our government. It will brings tears to a grown man seeing these so-called paperweights. I am really out of topic, but we need to save these rifles from destruction.

The Earl o Sammich · February 7, 2011, 04:22 PM

No respectable collection would be complete, or even off to a good start for that matter, without an M1 Garand. They can be had relatively cheaply right now through the DCM/CMP. Join a club, shoot a match or 2 and you can buy one through the mail. If you really interested in collecting get you Curios and Relicts FFL. It costs $30 bucks and you can do it through the mail. Forms are down loadable off the internets for free. Now anyone can send you a any weapon that is over 50 years old and has collector value through via common carrier. I've bought Colt 1911 through the mail. The first time you don't have to pay an FFL for a transfer you've made your money back.

rr2241tx · February 8, 2011, 10:33 AM

Since you already have 91/30s, Finn M-39. Find out what the M-N really could have been. Check out MG42's aperature sight leaf and front sight set too. Cannot beat 7.62x54R for price and versatility.

But, you need to get your 03 and basically get one or three of all of them. Just keeping up with all the ammo gets to be a hobby of its own.

bassfishindoc · February 14, 2011, 02:51 PM

This is a completely personal decision. I have a few milsurps. My favorites are the US Army milsurp rifle as I love the history that goes along with them. I currently have a M1 Garand and US Remington 1903A3. I still need a Krag, 1903, 1917, and M1 Carbine. When that is accomplished I will try to get one of each of the different manufacturers. Also, if I ever get the money, I would love one of the few M14s that managed to make it to civilian hands!

hikingman · February 14, 2011, 05:23 PM

Best value for the dollar? A walnut K31 with above average stock and VG+ barrel (inside), matching numbers across the rifle-including the bolt!
A soldier's tag would make a nice bonus...

Bamashooter · February 14, 2011, 07:06 PM

1903 Springfield
Mosin Nagant 91/59
Hungarian M-44
Thats what I have. I would one day like to add a FN Mauser and an M1 Garand

January 29, 2011, 01:16 AM	#33
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,887	Milsurplover: If you can shoot well with the old open sights, you can buy a really good/exc. Yugo 24/47 Mauser, or 48 for about $200-250. The surplus ammo should still be about .25/rd., as it was last spring. A company now advertises that their rear scope mount requires no (perm.) alteration for a short scout scope. GregM: I missed your comments earlier about the "Jungle Carbine". You had 'stolen my thunder', and finally saw where you state that it is also your favorite rifle. Just in case you are not too far, visits to my brother's outdoor club by Evansville always includes an Enfield #5 and the SKS. Last edited by Ignition Override; January 29, 2011 at 01:25 AM.

January 30, 2011, 12:31 AM	#34
Volucris Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2009 Posts: 293	For cost vs performance easily the K-31 or a Swedish Mauser in 6.5 Swede. Garands are wonderful rifles but they are still very expensive from people being too proud of labels. __________________ "From my cold, dead hands!" - Charlton Heston

January 30, 2011, 09:03 PM	#35
Glenn Bartley Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 283	I have a Mossberg M44, in .22LR, that was a military issued trainer and which I bought from the CMP as military surplus. Most people do not think of a rifle in .22LR as milsurp, but if they were military trainers then indeed they are milsurp. As for the M44, it is a great rifle, accurate as a tack driver, and was not that expensive. I do imagine though they have gone up in price more than a little bit since I got mine several years ago. I also have a couple of Mosin Nagants - one M44 and a 91/30, a Yugoslavian SKS, and a Yugoslavian M24/47 in 8mm Mauser. M24/47 is pretty accurate and a strong rifle. I like it a lot. All are great rifles. I also owned a couple other SKS's and another Nagant M44 but sold them. Those are the milsurp rifles I can speak to through ownership. Of all of them, the Mossberg M44 is by far the best quality rifle and the best shooter. I would like to pick up a decent Enfield, bought a couple but returned them to the dealer because the crowns were badly scraped, sure would like another in nice shape. As for the best overall, I have not tried enough of em yet to be able to answer and any answer I could give would be very subjective to personal likes and dislikes. All the best, Glenn B __________________ When I look in the mirror, I am happy to see, some of that nine year old boy, who used to be me. http://ballseyesboomers.blogspot.com/ Last edited by Glenn Bartley; January 30, 2011 at 09:14 PM.

February 3, 2011, 12:46 PM	#38
finloq Member Join Date: October 2, 2010 Posts: 73	Wow! Favorite (in my collection)? History: 1895 Chilean M95 Mauser 1939 Soviet (Finnish capture) Tula Mosin 91/30 1917 LSA Enfield No.1 Mk. III Accuracy: 1945 Long Branch Enfield No.4 Mk.I* 1954 Spanish FR8 1954 Romanian Mosin M44 1954 HRA M1 Garand Just Plain Neat: 1945 Fazakerly No.5 Mk.I 1907 Soviet (Czech rework) Izhevsk Mosin 91/38 1942 Sako (1898 Sestroryetsk) Mosin M39 1904 Hopkins & Allen 12guage __________________ "Self-realization. I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, "... I drank what?"

February 4, 2011, 10:33 AM	#45
LtMiller Junior Member Join Date: February 2, 2011 Posts: 3	The best milsurp rifles If you have the means, collect them all; if your shooting, consider your ammo expenses, esp. exotic calibers. I started collecting them a few years back, but finally, accepted my mistake; I should have collected M1s and M14s, the real battle rifles, and they are a beauty, and a joy to shoot at the range or in the field, plus 30-06 and 7.62x51 are easy to reload. I started teaching a batch of youths to become riflemen using .22s; they are now ready for the M1A (M14 clone), this Summer. These 2 rifles are my life (my partner) and I will be sharing them to this future riflemen. Part of the lesson will be the M14 receivers, I have in my collection, that was destroyed by our government. It will brings tears to a grown man seeing these so-called paperweights. I am really out of topic, but we need to save these rifles from destruction.

January 26, 2011, 08:37 AM	#26
kadima Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2010 Posts: 190	Beg to differ, about the K31. It was never shot in a battle, this is true, but in the true spirit of "Si vis pacem para bellum" it was one or more K31 (or K11) in each Swiss home that allowed the Confoederatio to remain free during IIWW.... K.

January 26, 2011, 09:25 AM	#28
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	If you want to shoot them, add an M-1 Carbine, the ammo is reasonable.

January 26, 2011, 09:58 PM	#31
simonkenton Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 891	The best milsurp rifle? Swedish Mauser, hands down.

January 30, 2011, 09:09 PM	#36
.300 Weatherby Mag Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2008 Posts: 1,777	No love for the Arisakas on the accuracy front?? My type 38 is scary accurate... My remington built Mosin Nagant m91 is really accurate and only the M39 Finn is comparable in the Mosin Family...

February 2, 2011, 10:45 AM	#37
sirsloop Junior member Join Date: January 13, 2011 Posts: 376	1903a3... awesome awesome rifles!!

February 7, 2011, 04:22 PM	#46
The Earl o Sammich Member Join Date: February 4, 2011 Posts: 26	No respectable collection would be complete, or even off to a good start for that matter, without an M1 Garand. They can be had relatively cheaply right now through the DCM/CMP. Join a club, shoot a match or 2 and you can buy one through the mail. If you really interested in collecting get you Curios and Relicts FFL. It costs $30 bucks and you can do it through the mail. Forms are down loadable off the internets for free. Now anyone can send you a any weapon that is over 50 years old and has collector value through via common carrier. I've bought Colt 1911 through the mail. The first time you don't have to pay an FFL for a transfer you've made your money back.

February 8, 2011, 10:33 AM	#47
rr2241tx Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2007 Location: The Great State of Taxes Posts: 267	Since you already have 91/30s, Finn M-39. Find out what the M-N really could have been. Check out MG42's aperature sight leaf and front sight set too. Cannot beat 7.62x54R for price and versatility. But, you need to get your 03 and basically get one or three of all of them. Just keeping up with all the ammo gets to be a hobby of its own. __________________ rr2241tx

February 14, 2011, 02:51 PM	#48
bassfishindoc Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2010 Posts: 166	This is a completely personal decision. I have a few milsurps. My favorites are the US Army milsurp rifle as I love the history that goes along with them. I currently have a M1 Garand and US Remington 1903A3. I still need a Krag, 1903, 1917, and M1 Carbine. When that is accomplished I will try to get one of each of the different manufacturers. Also, if I ever get the money, I would love one of the few M14s that managed to make it to civilian hands! __________________ 2LT United States Army NRA Life Member GOA Life Member East Tennessee State University Quillen College of Medicine

February 14, 2011, 05:23 PM	#49
hikingman Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2004 Location: Alabama Posts: 301	Best value for the dollar? A walnut K31 with above average stock and VG+ barrel (inside), matching numbers across the rifle-including the bolt! A soldier's tag would make a nice bonus... __________________ NRA Life Member

February 14, 2011, 07:06 PM	#50
Bamashooter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2010 Posts: 1,860	1903 Springfield Mosin Nagant 91/59 Hungarian M-44 Thats what I have. I would one day like to add a FN Mauser and an M1 Garand