Nazi Germany

Hodge Podge · February 18, 2010, 07:27 PM

My uncle has a gun that was from Germany. It was made out of a tin cup a steel tube and some other house-hold items. Now my uncle got it from a German-Jew who during WW2 was in Auchwitz. He told my uncle that he has killed over 20 German officers with it. The German-Jew later, after he survived Auchwitz, put a cerial number on it. The cerial number was his and his wifes prison number. If he was to sell the gun to the the jewish museum he would get about 30,000$. I just thought that was interestinh.

Wobble · February 18, 2010, 07:33 PM

Fascinating. Any chance of getting a picture of the gun to post here?

hickstick_10 · February 18, 2010, 08:15 PM

interesting, what was the mans name who he bought this gun from? and what caliber is it? A prisoner who killed officers in Auschwitz and lived to talk about it would be pretty well documented, and a fascinating read.

Creeper · February 18, 2010, 08:17 PM

If this is a true and documentable story and "gun", I think it should be donated to the Holocaust museum... but that's just me.

Hodge Podge · February 18, 2010, 08:43 PM

My ucle lives in Tennessee. So this summer when i see him i will shoot a picture of it. Im not sure of the mans name at this time but i will find out here soon. It is a 22. and he killed officers before he went to Auchwitz. Thats the reason why he went to a harsh camp in the first place instead of going through the steps of ghetto concentration camp/work camp death camp he went striaght to death camp but survived.

jonnyc · February 18, 2010, 08:49 PM

If he, a Jew, killed German officers and was captured, he would not have made it to any camp. I would still like to see the gun and hear the story, but I will remain a bit skeptical.

Hodge Podge · February 18, 2010, 09:09 PM

as am I. Ive only heard the story while i was here in PA and he was on a visit. Maybe its just one of them BS stories that come up when you talk about guns. I am visiting them there this summer to hunt black bear and will post something about it then

Crosshair · February 18, 2010, 10:01 PM

Quote:

If he, a Jew, killed German officers and was captured, he would not have made it to any camp. I would still like to see the gun and hear the story, but I will remain a bit skeptical.

I'm skeptical too, but the man in question may have been arrested for other activities unrelated to assassinations. (Trying to buy fake ID papers?) He could have been picked up for any number of reasons and I highly doubt he would have told the Nazi's about his Hitman side-job.

hickstick_10 · February 18, 2010, 10:07 PM

perhaps, but then how did he keep track of the gun? I realy doubt it was on him during his stay in Aushwitz, or that he snuck it in and hid it, and so he hid it somewhere before he was shipped in? Only to come back for his homebrew zip gun? And why not take a pistol of an officer he already supposedly shot, instead of relying on this zip gun for 20 assasinations?

Were eather missing information or something doesnt add up.

Crosshair · February 18, 2010, 10:45 PM

Perhaps this zip-gun could be hidden in ones sleeve and fired. Can't do that with a P-38. It could also have been a walk-by and didn't have time to loot the body.

Just throwing out ideas.

jonnyc · February 18, 2010, 10:46 PM

"Thats the reason why he went to a harsh camp in the first place instead of going through the steps of ghetto concentration camp/work camp death camp he went striaght to death camp but survived."

This is also a bit confused and misleading. There were no "steps" to get you to a death camp like Auschwitz/Birkenau. If your train was routed to an extermination camp, a few were selected out to work and the rest died almost immediately. At other camps or ghettos, inmates were worked or starved to death a bit slower. Except for perhaps Dachau, the KZs were not prisons where adjudicated individuals were sent.

Hodge Podge · February 18, 2010, 11:25 PM

You went through steps. First Jews were sent to Ghettos. Once the ghettos were cleared ablebodied skilled workers worked. The rest sent to death camps. It was set in steps- it was even written in Mein Kampf. Hitler was very organized in his ways.

hickstick_10 · February 19, 2010, 12:15 AM

Some of the unfortunate went through steps, but a great many were just taken away and murdered. There were special squads that commited these crimes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzkommando

Some never made it to camps at all, and were gassed in big vans, or taken to the woods and shot just out of sight of the ghettos, no death camps no steps. And the ghettos were often "liquidated" like in Warsaw, after the revolt. No steps, people were just killed. A great many died in the work camps as well. "skilled" workers were not spared, I recommend you read Viktor Frankls "Mans search for meaning" him and his wife were inmates at Auschwitz, his wife did not survive, he was a physician and a psychiatrist. http://www.amazon.ca/Mans-Search-Mea.../dp/0671023373 even he admits that those who could manipulate what "system" there was, or did whatever was necessary to save themselves survived the camps.

The "steps" were not applied to the majority. Spielberg showed the "step" process in his movie Shindlers list, but thats were it stops, a great majority were just taken from there homes, spouses and children and were never seen again, and more information on the holocaust is still coming to light, so take the story with a grain of salt. Although I hope its true, cause its a neat story.

UpandAtIt · February 19, 2010, 04:12 AM

Fantastic story for sure. I would love to see a listing and picture show of various expedient wepons like the Richarson "Slam Fire," Liberator, Muffler Tube Mortors, Tire Tube guns, Pen Guns, Home made STEN guns etc. I find it fascinating what human conditions endure that people out of nothing build items for defense and resistance.

I love the story where the Jewish people could not buy ammo, so they bought Lipstick cases by the thousands and converted them into usable ammo for captured Mausers.

The human spirit is a high motivator and if this story of 20 Nazi German officers killed via an home made weapon is true and can even be slightly documented, it is a case for the Holocost Museum and a case for celebration of yet another win over oppression. I would love to read the entire story from front to back.

I personally celebrate all peoples ( especially Jewish) survival in such harsh conditions and weep for those that did not survive. Sadly, their (all oppressed peoples) fight is not yet over.

I suspect if the weapon is real, it would be a 4mm or 5mm piece. I also wonder if the ammo was commercial or home made.

The Liberator was made from stamped steel and a tube and I have seen examples of home made ones made from Pie Plates down in basements and in the woods workshops. It is actually harder to make a rim fire weapon than it is a centerfire weapon due to type of primer and the measurments needed for exact hit of the rim.

I have made a a few shop expediant weapons in the past just to see if I could and found it much easier to make a 9mm or .45cal pistol or a shotgun out of two pipes and a nail into a slam fire weapon than it was to make a rim fire weapon.

Chris_B · February 19, 2010, 06:53 AM

Quote:

My ucle lives in Tennessee. So this summer when i see him i will shoot a picture of it. Im not sure of the mans name at this time but i will find out here soon. It is a 22. and he killed officers before he went to Auchwitz. Thats the reason why he went to a harsh camp in the first place instead of going through the steps of ghetto concentration camp/work camp death camp he went striaght to death camp but survived.

He killed these officers, and instead of executing him with a piano wire on a meathook or a 9mm to the base of the skull, they put him in a camp?

During the war? No. "Dig a hole and kneel at the edge, please"

During peacetime? No. "Here is an example of a murderous jew proving that his race is animalistic. He will put him on trial publicly, sensationalize the case, and execute him for our propaganda machine"

I do not believe this story at all. I apologize if I seem harsh but I do not believe it

skydiver3346 · February 19, 2010, 09:00 AM

I too believe that its hard to consider this man killing multiple (trained military German officers) with a zip gun.... No resistance by them?
If he was accused to murdering them, he would have been executed on the spot!

Now with that said, anything is possible, so who really knows other than your uncle what really happened. Its hard enough to survive a concentration camp (just for being a Jew), much less for being sent there for murdering German officers. He would have never been able to smuggle the gun in the camp I would think, (being they strip you down, thorough search,etc). It is an interesting story, no matter what actually happened. Post some pics of this gun when you can. Thanks

Chipperman · February 19, 2010, 11:04 AM

http://www.motivatedphotos.com/?id=27658

**44 AMP** · February 19, 2010, 01:03 PM

But the story you were given contains so many improbables that it sounds very much like the kind of made up BS that would be told to turn a worthless piece of junk made in your basement into a valuable "historical" relic, to dupe the gullible and unwary.

Got any ideas how many "authentic" pieces of the true cross have been sold to someone over the centuries? Or how many other scams get pulled every day? TO me, this sounds like a fine tale to make a sale. The part about using his wife's camp number as the serial number is especially touching.

A picture of the gun would be interesting, as would a verified statement from the camp survivor. But considering that the fact that the last suriviors got liberated 65 years ago, he probably isn't still around to give one.

To me, the most likely case is that the camp survivor, like so many, came out slightly unhinged by his ordeal. He may have truly believed and remembered it happening just as he told it, but it might not have been so. I would take this story with a very large grain of salt.

Hodge Podge · February 19, 2010, 04:18 PM

Maybe i'll put him on the spot with this story. this is just a story i heard. He is not known to be a liar but oh well sure interested me.

Chipperman · February 19, 2010, 04:54 PM

Someone could be completely wrong without being a liar.

James K · February 19, 2010, 05:13 PM

I don't know the ins and outs of prisoner treatment in Nazi Germany, but I do know lipstick cases could not be made into cartridges for use in Mauser rifles. (If they got the rifles, they would have gotten ammuniton the same way.) There are thousands of such stories, a few might be true.

The 1939 German gun law specifically banned possession of firearms by Jews, and their guns were confiscated. Not many Jews owned guns, given their pacifist culture and aversion to hunting. Still, one of the puzzling aspects of the Holocaust is that so few Jews fought the Nazis at all; one of the resolves on which the state of Israel is based is that such submission will not happen again.

FWIW, I don't think anyone accused of murdering an officer would have been sent to a camp; he would have been tried by a Nazi Volksgericht (peoples' court), found guilty (I don't think they ever acquitted anyone) and executed.

Jim

young mosin · February 19, 2010, 05:47 PM

I think you would be the baddest jew in the world if you killed 20 geman OFFICERS with a petty zip gun. but it sounds like a tall tale. you would be shot,gased or beaten to death

EdInk · February 19, 2010, 06:05 PM

I know it's not gun related but I own this bridge in Brooklyn that I'm looking t sell for cash.....

jonnyc · February 19, 2010, 09:06 PM

The lipstick case story is true, except that they were used in underground Jewish arms workshops is pre-Israel "Palestine", not wartime Europe.

Chris_B · February 20, 2010, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Someone could be completely wrong without being a liar.

I'd like to second that

February 18, 2010, 07:27 PM	#1
Hodge Podge Member Join Date: February 17, 2010 Location: 4D, PA Posts: 25	Nazi Germany My uncle has a gun that was from Germany. It was made out of a tin cup a steel tube and some other house-hold items. Now my uncle got it from a German-Jew who during WW2 was in Auchwitz. He told my uncle that he has killed over 20 German officers with it. The German-Jew later, after he survived Auchwitz, put a cerial number on it. The cerial number was his and his wifes prison number. If he was to sell the gun to the the jewish museum he would get about 30,000$. I just thought that was interestinh.

February 18, 2010, 08:17 PM	#4
Creeper Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2008 Location: Woooooshington Posts: 1,797	If this is a true and documentable story and "gun", I think it should be donated to the Holocaust museum... but that's just me. __________________ Shoulder Drive Nicholson Club

February 18, 2010, 08:43 PM	#5
Hodge Podge Member Join Date: February 17, 2010 Location: 4D, PA Posts: 25	Details My ucle lives in Tennessee. So this summer when i see him i will shoot a picture of it. Im not sure of the mans name at this time but i will find out here soon. It is a 22. and he killed officers before he went to Auchwitz. Thats the reason why he went to a harsh camp in the first place instead of going through the steps of ghetto concentration camp/work camp death camp he went striaght to death camp but survived.

February 18, 2010, 10:45 PM	#10
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	Perhaps this zip-gun could be hidden in ones sleeve and fired. Can't do that with a P-38. It could also have been a walk-by and didn't have time to loot the body. Just throwing out ideas. __________________ I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.

February 19, 2010, 12:15 AM	#13
hickstick_10 Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Posts: 477	Some of the unfortunate went through steps, but a great many were just taken away and murdered. There were special squads that commited these crimes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzkommando Some never made it to camps at all, and were gassed in big vans, or taken to the woods and shot just out of sight of the ghettos, no death camps no steps. And the ghettos were often "liquidated" like in Warsaw, after the revolt. No steps, people were just killed. A great many died in the work camps as well. "skilled" workers were not spared, I recommend you read Viktor Frankls "Mans search for meaning" him and his wife were inmates at Auschwitz, his wife did not survive, he was a physician and a psychiatrist. http://www.amazon.ca/Mans-Search-Mea.../dp/0671023373 even he admits that those who could manipulate what "system" there was, or did whatever was necessary to save themselves survived the camps. The "steps" were not applied to the majority. Spielberg showed the "step" process in his movie Shindlers list, but thats were it stops, a great majority were just taken from there homes, spouses and children and were never seen again, and more information on the holocaust is still coming to light, so take the story with a grain of salt. Although I hope its true, cause its a neat story. Last edited by hickstick_10; February 19, 2010 at 12:47 AM.

February 18, 2010, 07:33 PM	#2
Wobble Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Georgia USA Posts: 163	Fascinating. Any chance of getting a picture of the gun to post here?

February 18, 2010, 08:15 PM	#3
hickstick_10 Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Posts: 477	interesting, what was the mans name who he bought this gun from? and what caliber is it? A prisoner who killed officers in Auschwitz and lived to talk about it would be pretty well documented, and a fascinating read.

February 18, 2010, 08:49 PM	#6
jonnyc Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2009 Location: PA Posts: 1,731	If he, a Jew, killed German officers and was captured, he would not have made it to any camp. I would still like to see the gun and hear the story, but I will remain a bit skeptical.

February 18, 2010, 09:09 PM	#7
Hodge Podge Member Join Date: February 17, 2010 Location: 4D, PA Posts: 25	as am I. Ive only heard the story while i was here in PA and he was on a visit. Maybe its just one of them BS stories that come up when you talk about guns. I am visiting them there this summer to hunt black bear and will post something about it then

February 18, 2010, 10:07 PM	#9
hickstick_10 Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Posts: 477	perhaps, but then how did he keep track of the gun? I realy doubt it was on him during his stay in Aushwitz, or that he snuck it in and hid it, and so he hid it somewhere before he was shipped in? Only to come back for his homebrew zip gun? And why not take a pistol of an officer he already supposedly shot, instead of relying on this zip gun for 20 assasinations? Were eather missing information or something doesnt add up.

February 18, 2010, 10:46 PM	#11
jonnyc Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2009 Location: PA Posts: 1,731	"Thats the reason why he went to a harsh camp in the first place instead of going through the steps of ghetto concentration camp/work camp death camp he went striaght to death camp but survived." This is also a bit confused and misleading. There were no "steps" to get you to a death camp like Auschwitz/Birkenau. If your train was routed to an extermination camp, a few were selected out to work and the rest died almost immediately. At other camps or ghettos, inmates were worked or starved to death a bit slower. Except for perhaps Dachau, the KZs were not prisons where adjudicated individuals were sent.

February 18, 2010, 11:25 PM	#12
Hodge Podge Member Join Date: February 17, 2010 Location: 4D, PA Posts: 25	You went through steps. First Jews were sent to Ghettos. Once the ghettos were cleared ablebodied skilled workers worked. The rest sent to death camps. It was set in steps- it was even written in Mein Kampf. Hitler was very organized in his ways.

February 19, 2010, 04:12 AM	#14
UpandAtIt Junior member Join Date: February 14, 2010 Posts: 233	Fantastic story for sure. I would love to see a listing and picture show of various expedient wepons like the Richarson "Slam Fire," Liberator, Muffler Tube Mortors, Tire Tube guns, Pen Guns, Home made STEN guns etc. I find it fascinating what human conditions endure that people out of nothing build items for defense and resistance. I love the story where the Jewish people could not buy ammo, so they bought Lipstick cases by the thousands and converted them into usable ammo for captured Mausers. The human spirit is a high motivator and if this story of 20 Nazi German officers killed via an home made weapon is true and can even be slightly documented, it is a case for the Holocost Museum and a case for celebration of yet another win over oppression. I would love to read the entire story from front to back. I personally celebrate all peoples ( especially Jewish) survival in such harsh conditions and weep for those that did not survive. Sadly, their (all oppressed peoples) fight is not yet over. I suspect if the weapon is real, it would be a 4mm or 5mm piece. I also wonder if the ammo was commercial or home made. The Liberator was made from stamped steel and a tube and I have seen examples of home made ones made from Pie Plates down in basements and in the woods workshops. It is actually harder to make a rim fire weapon than it is a centerfire weapon due to type of primer and the measurments needed for exact hit of the rim. I have made a a few shop expediant weapons in the past just to see if I could and found it much easier to make a 9mm or .45cal pistol or a shotgun out of two pipes and a nail into a slam fire weapon than it was to make a rim fire weapon.

February 19, 2010, 09:00 AM	#16
skydiver3346 Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 1,222	His story: I too believe that its hard to consider this man killing multiple (trained military German officers) with a zip gun.... No resistance by them? If he was accused to murdering them, he would have been executed on the spot! Now with that said, anything is possible, so who really knows other than your uncle what really happened. Its hard enough to survive a concentration camp (just for being a Jew), much less for being sent there for murdering German officers. He would have never been able to smuggle the gun in the camp I would think, (being they strip you down, thorough search,etc). It is an interesting story, no matter what actually happened. Post some pics of this gun when you can. Thanks

February 19, 2010, 11:04 AM	#17
Chipperman Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2000 Location: Live Free or Die, Baby! Posts: 1,550	http://www.motivatedphotos.com/?id=27658 Last edited by Chipperman; February 19, 2010 at 11:32 AM.

February 19, 2010, 01:03 PM	#18
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,804	Not to call anyone a liar... But the story you were given contains so many improbables that it sounds very much like the kind of made up BS that would be told to turn a worthless piece of junk made in your basement into a valuable "historical" relic, to dupe the gullible and unwary. Got any ideas how many "authentic" pieces of the true cross have been sold to someone over the centuries? Or how many other scams get pulled every day? TO me, this sounds like a fine tale to make a sale. The part about using his wife's camp number as the serial number is especially touching. A picture of the gun would be interesting, as would a verified statement from the camp survivor. But considering that the fact that the last suriviors got liberated 65 years ago, he probably isn't still around to give one. To me, the most likely case is that the camp survivor, like so many, came out slightly unhinged by his ordeal. He may have truly believed and remembered it happening just as he told it, but it might not have been so. I would take this story with a very large grain of salt. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 19, 2010, 04:18 PM	#19
Hodge Podge Member Join Date: February 17, 2010 Location: 4D, PA Posts: 25	well.. Maybe i'll put him on the spot with this story. this is just a story i heard. He is not known to be a liar but oh well sure interested me.

February 19, 2010, 04:54 PM	#20
Chipperman Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2000 Location: Live Free or Die, Baby! Posts: 1,550	Someone could be completely wrong without being a liar.

February 19, 2010, 05:13 PM	#21
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I don't know the ins and outs of prisoner treatment in Nazi Germany, but I do know lipstick cases could not be made into cartridges for use in Mauser rifles. (If they got the rifles, they would have gotten ammuniton the same way.) There are thousands of such stories, a few might be true. The 1939 German gun law specifically banned possession of firearms by Jews, and their guns were confiscated. Not many Jews owned guns, given their pacifist culture and aversion to hunting. Still, one of the puzzling aspects of the Holocaust is that so few Jews fought the Nazis at all; one of the resolves on which the state of Israel is based is that such submission will not happen again. FWIW, I don't think anyone accused of murdering an officer would have been sent to a camp; he would have been tried by a Nazi Volksgericht (peoples' court), found guilty (I don't think they ever acquitted anyone) and executed. Jim Last edited by James K; February 19, 2010 at 05:20 PM.

February 19, 2010, 05:47 PM	#22
young mosin Member Join Date: February 1, 2010 Location: missouri Posts: 96	I think you would be the baddest jew in the world if you killed 20 geman OFFICERS with a petty zip gun. but it sounds like a tall tale. you would be shot,gased or beaten to death

February 19, 2010, 06:05 PM	#23
EdInk Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2009 Posts: 3,968	I know it's not gun related but I own this bridge in Brooklyn that I'm looking t sell for cash..... __________________ Sic Semper Tyrannis

February 19, 2010, 09:06 PM	#24
jonnyc Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2009 Location: PA Posts: 1,731	The lipstick case story is true, except that they were used in underground Jewish arms workshops is pre-Israel "Palestine", not wartime Europe.

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