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Old January 24, 2021, 06:44 PM   #1
stagpanther
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Difference in CCI LRP's?

Over the years I've dropped/spilled primers by the hundreds and generally have tossed them into a box to save. I've finally been motivated to sort them out and use them given the historic draught. For the life of me I cannot tell the difference between CCI's large rifle primers and their large rifle magnum primers. Any easy visual ID's anyone knows of??
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Old January 24, 2021, 07:12 PM   #2
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Looking at both no difference I can see. Heck, even the cake mix looks the same color.

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Old January 24, 2021, 08:01 PM   #3
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My best guess is they are the same in respect to priming compound, but that the mag has a thicker cup material.

I recently learned that, with the exception of cup thickness to withstand higher pressures, small pistol, small magnum pistol, and small rifle were all identical in a pressure test in a handgun caliber....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGVR...ature=emb_logo

You could drop to a starting load and run a few of each over the chronograph to see if there are any velocity differences if you have a few regular and mag that are not mixed...
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Old January 24, 2021, 09:39 PM   #4
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Quote:
I recently learned that, with the exception of cup thickness to withstand higher pressures, small pistol, small magnum pistol, and small rifle were all identical in a pressure test in a handgun caliber....
All that means is that the primers tested didn't generate enough difference in pressure to be measured by the test equipment.

Do NOT make the assumption that because SOME primers are the same ALL primers are the same. I've had a lot of Winchester primers marked "for standard and magnum" Other makers do other things.

SOMETIMES the only difference is the cup thickness. Sometimes, there are other differences. You've seen a test where there was no difference. I've seen a test where there was 15% pressure difference. Tests are good for showing what was tested did. They aren't so good for proving everything will work the way the tested items did, every time.

Quote:
Over the years I've dropped/spilled primers by the hundreds and generally have tossed them into a box to save.
IF its not a primer box, that is a very dangerous practice. Loose primers in a box or a jar have nothing to prevent chain detonation. If you put them in a primer box with its separations its much safer.

Over the years, I've dropped a lot of primers, too. When I do, I stop and find them and they go back in the box they came out of, or they go into the primer feed they were headed for when I dropped them.

Spent primers I'll pick up when I get around to it. Live ones are live explosives (if small ones) and money I don't want to leave laying about. And I was that cheap when primers only cost me a penny apiece
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Old January 24, 2021, 09:44 PM   #5
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thanks.
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Old January 24, 2021, 10:11 PM   #6
Shadow9mm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
All that means is that the primers tested didn't generate enough difference in pressure to be measured by the test equipment.

Do NOT make the assumption that because SOME primers are the same ALL primers are the same. I've had a lot of Winchester primers marked "for standard and magnum" Other makers do other things.

SOMETIMES the only difference is the cup thickness. Sometimes, there are other differences. You've seen a test where there was no difference. I've seen a test where there was 15% pressure difference. Tests are good for showing what was tested did. They aren't so good for proving everything will work the way the tested items did, every time.

I have spilled primers as well. My rule has always been, no more than 1 primer or powder out at 1 time. If I spill, I know what it is and exactly where it goes back to.


IF its not a primer box, that is a very dangerous practice. Loose primers in a box or a jar have nothing to prevent chain detonation. If you put them in a primer box with its separations its much safer.

Over the years, I've dropped a lot of primers, too. When I do, I stop and find them and they go back in the box they came out of, or they go into the primer feed they were headed for when I dropped them.

Spent primers I'll pick up when I get around to it. Live ones are live explosives (if small ones) and money I don't want to leave laying about. And I was that cheap when primers only cost me a penny apiece
Very valid points. Given that they are all CCI, if he has some known large rifle and large rifle magnum, would loading up starting loads and testing for velocity differences be a valid test? If they were identical use them interchangeably. if not keep it at a starting load for plinking assuming no pressure signs...

Other thought, if the cups are thicker, as they most likely are, would there be enough of a weight difference to just put them on a scale to separate them?
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Old January 25, 2021, 09:31 AM   #7
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CCI Large Rifle Magnum were not tried in the video. Generally speaking, magnum primers have higher gas making capacity than standard, so the priming mix in them weighs more than the standard primers. That, or having thicker cups will mean sorting by weight should separate them out. The scale will have to be one with at least one milligram (0.015432-grain) resolution. The inexpensive jeweler's scales would provide that.
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Old January 25, 2021, 11:08 AM   #8
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Here's pictures of rifle primer fire output:

https://www.6mmbr.com/PrimerPix.html

As firing pin springs weaken with age, so will the primer fire output. First indicator is vertical spread of bullet impact increases and mean point of impact drops; most noticeable at longer ranges.

Most rifle pins will stick out at least.060" from the bolt face so the primer is sufficiently dented.

Last edited by Bart B.; January 25, 2021 at 11:48 AM.
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Old January 25, 2021, 12:06 PM   #9
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Always liked those primer pictures.

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Old January 25, 2021, 01:53 PM   #10
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It would be really nice if they color coded the primers so you could sort them out.

It would seem to be not that hard. Remington are a different color than CCI. I don't have any other types so not sure what Winchester etc use for color.
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Old January 25, 2021, 02:33 PM   #11
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Primer dimensions

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php
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Old January 25, 2021, 04:45 PM   #12
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The CCI 200 and CCI 250 both list a cup thickness the same at 0.027" leaving only the weight of the charge. Using my 3 day older than dirt RCBS digital scale the best I can resolve is 0.1 grain. Weighing a few of each from the same packages the large rifle (CCI 200) weigh about 0.1 grain less than the large rifle magnum (CCI 250). A good scale with higher resolution may show things better.

I am also not sure if the two primers use the same mix just more of it in the magnum flavor?

All else you can email CCI support and ask for any suggestions but I would not be too optimistic. Just load light and don't expect tight groups.

Ron
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Old January 25, 2021, 05:26 PM   #13
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Quote:
Primer dimensions
One ten thousandth of an inch?
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Old January 25, 2021, 06:41 PM   #14
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just weighed 15 CCI 250's. This box's average weight was 333 mg, less than the avg for CCI 200's I used in that test the other day. Go figure

Rem 9.5s were 347 mg
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Old January 25, 2021, 06:56 PM   #15
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just weighed 15 CCI 250's. This box's average weight was 333 mg, less than the avg for CCI 200's I used in that test the other day. Go figure
That's about it too, go figure. No clue what the manufacturer allows themselves or if the compounds differ?

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Old January 26, 2021, 05:45 PM   #16
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Hounddawg,

If you get a chance to fire and clean a few and weigh them, please let us know the result. I am curious if the metal is any different, despite the tables.
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Old January 26, 2021, 07:39 PM   #17
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tell ya what Nick, tomorrow I will just pop 5 and weigh them for you. Wife is sleeping otherwise I would do it right now. I no longer have a seperate man cave for fun and games

edit - my guess is they use a different formula in the compound, sort of like powders do
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Old January 29, 2021, 10:44 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart B. View Post
Here's pictures of rifle primer fire output:

https://www.6mmbr.com/PrimerPix.html

As firing pin springs weaken with age, so will the primer fire output. First indicator is vertical spread of bullet impact increases and mean point of impact drops; most noticeable at longer ranges.

Most rifle pins will stick out at least.060" from the bolt face so the primer is sufficiently dented.
Holy mackerel, Remington is insane. That is some serious briesance.
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Old January 29, 2021, 03:16 PM   #19
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sorry almost forgot to pop a few 250's and weigh them

300 mg
301 mg
301 mg
302 mg
300 mg
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Old January 29, 2021, 03:29 PM   #20
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I'd call that a match for all practical purposes. Thanks.


Jetinteriorguy,

Keep in mind the spark showers and a lot of the flame brightness have to do with metal powder added to the mix to help ignite thick deterrent coatings. But just as a candle producing a brighter flame than your propane torch does not mean the candle puts out more heat energy, so it is with primers. It is mixture dependent. Unfortunately, the rest of Salazar's primer experiment text that he once had up as part of his defunct Rifleman's Journal isn't there. It showed differences in velocities produced to give some sense of the actual power difference. IIRC it tracked pretty well with the photos except for the Russian primers, which produced higher velocities than some of the primers with bigger photo flames did.
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