Model 41 stove piping

turtlehead · July 30, 2017, 08:44 PM

It's a 2012 Performance Center with 6 2012 magazines. This gun has always had an issue with stove piping and has been back to S&W twice. Each time they replaced the extractor and said it was fine.

My question: Is it possible this may be a magazine issue? I remember back in 2012 there were a lot of complaints about the current magazine feed lips being out of whack somehow.

I've tried different spring weights, ammo, oil, etc. Just have never been able to figure this gun out. It's a shame because when it shoots, it shoots like a dream.

I figured I'd ask here before it goes back to S&W a third time. Wish I knew someone in Phoenix with an old and reliable magazine I could borrow for a weekend.

And before someone says, "It's an expensive gun, it should work every time", please don't.

Jim Watson · July 30, 2017, 08:52 PM

Mine is older and does well, even with recent production magazines.

I don't have The Answer but I think I would try to find a real gunsmith to troubleshoot it instead of annoying the warranty clerk yet again.

laytonj1 · July 30, 2017, 10:04 PM

Is the spent case not extracting?
My 1959 vintage 41 was doing that when I bought it. Advice was to replace the extractor with one from Volquartsen. Worked like a champ. Cost about $15 and was easy to replace.

Jim

turtlehead · July 30, 2017, 10:13 PM

Right on the spent case. I've thought about the VQ extractor...

Guess I should give that a try.

turtlehead · July 30, 2017, 10:21 PM

OK then. Just ordered it. We'll see how that goes...

turtlehead · July 30, 2017, 10:23 PM

Jim, what is your failure rate with the VQ extractor?

I'm at 30+% right now. Very depressing.

laytonj1 · July 30, 2017, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtlehead

Jim, what is your failure rate with the VQ extractor?

I'm at 30+% right now. Very depressing.

Last time I took it out I had 1 failure to feed out of 350 rounds. Otherwise, it has been perfect. I also give it a thorough cleaning after each range session and only use CCI standard velocity ammo in all my 22's.

Jim

turtlehead · July 30, 2017, 10:50 PM

I might just fall over dead if I can get that.

Will update with my results in a week or so.

Walt Sherrill · July 31, 2017, 02:59 PM

I am TOTALLY unfamiliar with S&W Model 41s, so there may be some magic involved here that eludes me.

That said, I don't understand how the magazine can be an issue UNLESS the feed lip gap is just a bit too wide. If the gap is too wide, the next round about to be fed COULD sit a bit higher than it should, and THAT might interfere with a round being dragged back by the extractor. Then, the round being extracted could be knocked out of the extractor's grasp before it hit the ejector.

I'm pretty sure that could lead to some problems with feeding, etc., but I'm not sure it would give you a classic stovepipe jam, however.

Kvon2 · July 31, 2017, 05:09 PM

So I'm not familiar with the gun but I can tell you on my Remington 597 if the guide rods are over tightened from the rear it will stove pipe all day long.

I know we're talking about a rifle vs a pistol but could anything be loosened up?

10-96 · July 31, 2017, 06:14 PM

There could be something to the spread of the lips on the clips. But I only had one problematic one that I picked up used at a gunshow, I kind of struggle to see all of your clips having the same problem though. I bent the lips on mine inwards ever so slightly and that seems to have cured it. My '77 model cycles near 100% with 2 old and 3 newer clips.

But come to think of it, none of mine can be newer than 2010.

I wish we had a way to tell if your clips tend to seat higher or lower than normal- such as maybe an out of spec magazine catch.

turtlehead · July 31, 2017, 07:10 PM

Just to clarify: The spent case extracts fully from the chamber but is then jammed up by the next feeding round before it has a chance to clear the gun.

I know asking about the magazines seems like a stretch but I just don't see anything else wrong with the gun. The extractor holds the case as it should. Feed ramp is smooth and shiny. No excessive wear anywhere after over 2000 rounds. Only use good standard velocity ammo.

I was going to send all the mags back to S&W to test with the gun this time. I don't doubt it might just be a tuning issue that is beyond my understanding. I also wouldn't be surprised that there is a shortage of smiths experienced with this gun at S&W. They are very rarely produced and when they are only in short runs.

Walt Sherrill · July 31, 2017, 07:28 PM

Can you recreate the problem if you manually cycle the slide slowly with a spent round in the chamber, and a loaded mag in the gun?

Glock_17 · July 31, 2017, 07:35 PM

Have you ever tried anything else then CCI Standard?

I once owned a S&W 2206 in the late 90s. In those days, if recall correctly. they had a line printed in the manual saying they recommend using American Eagles High Velocity.

I dont know what they recommend these days but the mod 41 was around long before the 2206 atleast.

**4V50 Gary** · July 31, 2017, 07:41 PM

What's the ejector look like?
What's the chamber like? Clean and shiny.

Your 41 is extracting, not ejecting.

redlightrich · July 31, 2017, 11:43 PM

I read a lot about this on the S&W forum, and some poor fellows have the darndest time, with FTE issues.

I read these threads and these fellows try everything to no avail. This is why Clark makes the barrel without the rear top sight rail, to stop ejecting issues.

I can't help but wonder, being it is a real target pistol, can the chamber be a tad too tight, which may slow the shell a tad and cause this issue?

Just a guess. Why some guns are very reliable, while others not so much. Makes me wonder if the chamber fit can do it.

Some people say the "cure" is add a drop of oil on the first round, which confounds me. I would think you would NOT want oil in the chamber, but folks swear by it?

Please post your progress and good luck

Rich

turtlehead · August 1, 2017, 07:27 AM

@Walt Sherrill I will try that next time at the range.

@Glock 17 I've used CCI SV almost exclusively but have tried about ten other types of ammo including some with slightly higher velocity. All with the same problem.

@4V50 Gary Everything looks clean and sharp and normal. Is there anything I should be looking for with the ejector?

@redlightrich I feel the same way as you about the drop of oil so have never tried it. Maybe I should... Maybe a little superstition is what it needs.

I will certainly post my results and some pictures soonish.

Thank you, everyone.

Glock_17 · August 1, 2017, 07:52 AM

Tbh i would demand my money back at that point........

At the same price point there are better target guns out there then a S&W 41.
Hammerli 208 / 215 or even a X-esse.
Walther GSP

Jim Watson · August 1, 2017, 08:52 AM

A friend's M41 responded to the drop of oil on the top round "superstition."
Heck, poster Slamfire oils EVERYTHING.

Walt Sherrill · August 1, 2017, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtlehead

@Walt Sherrill I will try that next time at the range.

You may NOT have to wait until your next range trip... just chambering a live round manually with a full mag in the gun and then racking the slide MIGHT show a problem. (Just keep your finger away from the trigger!)

If you've got a spent casing (which you'd have at the range), that would likely be a better indicator of a problem, as it that spent casing would be more easily bumped loose than a unfired round (which has more weight).

Quote:

Originally Posted by redlightrich

I can't help but wonder, being it is a real target pistol, can the chamber be a tad too tight, which may slow the shell a tad and cause this issue?

Even if a tight chamber slows things down, the other part of the cycle (the round being stripped from the mag and chambered isn't going to happen until the slide has moved all the way to the rear and the next round is being picked up.

For some reason, the round being extracted is being knocked loose from the extractor and it's getting in the way when the next round is being fed.

T. O'Heir · August 1, 2017, 11:40 AM

The only issues I've had with mine in about 35 years has been ammo related. Nothing whatever to do with the extractor or the mags.
Smith 41's are extremely and notoriously fussy about the ammo they'll both shoot well and cycle the action using. And no 2 will shoot and cycle the same ammo. It is essential you try a box of as many brands as you can to find the ammo your pistol likes. The price of it makes no difference.
And there is no problem using any flavour of high velocity. Even stuff like Yellow Jackets(discontinued. sniff.) and Stingers, etc. work just fine.
What's it do with high velocity ammo?
A S&W 2206 is not a 41.
"...it should work every time..." Lotta stuff like that.

ShootistPRS · August 1, 2017, 12:56 PM

Something to check is can the "bolt" be pulled back far enough to pick up a new round before the expended round gets to the ejector? What I am pointing to here is if the ammo you are using doesn't stroke the action far enough to eject then the round being picked up will have interference from the previously fired round.
I would try some high velocity rounds before going a lot further.

turtlehead · August 1, 2017, 07:41 PM

@Walt Sherrill I tried cycling out a spent casing manually ahead of a live round as you suggested. The case stuck in the chamber and the problem was recreated.

I suppose that might suggest a tight chamber or a weak extractor. The extractor edge is straight and sharp BTW.

@Jim Watson So is the oil meant to lube the chamber? I'll try it.

@ T O'Heir I have not tried any high velocity. Just higher than standard. I do have a few boxes of Mini Mags on hand. Though I would prefer more accurate loads.

@ShootistPRS I also cycled a mag of live rounds manually and they all ejected nicely.

turtlehead · August 1, 2017, 07:54 PM

I may have found something...

The extractor edge stands proud of the rim a few thousandths. It looks like maybe it should sit lower.

Should it be touching the top of the rim?

turtlehead · August 1, 2017, 08:29 PM

20170801_182405_resized.jpg

That's the best I can do at the moment. Should there be that much air in between the extractor and the top of the rim?

July 30, 2017, 08:44 PM	#1
turtlehead Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2015 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,203	Model 41 stove piping It's a 2012 Performance Center with 6 2012 magazines. This gun has always had an issue with stove piping and has been back to S&W twice. Each time they replaced the extractor and said it was fine. My question: Is it possible this may be a magazine issue? I remember back in 2012 there were a lot of complaints about the current magazine feed lips being out of whack somehow. I've tried different spring weights, ammo, oil, etc. Just have never been able to figure this gun out. It's a shame because when it shoots, it shoots like a dream. I figured I'd ask here before it goes back to S&W a third time. Wish I knew someone in Phoenix with an old and reliable magazine I could borrow for a weekend. And before someone says, "It's an expensive gun, it should work every time", please don't.

July 31, 2017, 06:14 PM	#11
10-96 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Tx Panhandle Territory Posts: 4,159	There could be something to the spread of the lips on the clips. But I only had one problematic one that I picked up used at a gunshow, I kind of struggle to see all of your clips having the same problem though. I bent the lips on mine inwards ever so slightly and that seems to have cured it. My '77 model cycles near 100% with 2 old and 3 newer clips. But come to think of it, none of mine can be newer than 2010. I wish we had a way to tell if your clips tend to seat higher or lower than normal- such as maybe an out of spec magazine catch. __________________ Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day) I suspect a thing or two... because I've seen a thing or two.

July 31, 2017, 07:35 PM	#14
Glock_17 Member Join Date: July 19, 2017 Posts: 33	Try American Eagles? Have you ever tried anything else then CCI Standard? I once owned a S&W 2206 in the late 90s. In those days, if recall correctly. they had a line printed in the manual saying they recommend using American Eagles High Velocity. I dont know what they recommend these days but the mod 41 was around long before the 2206 atleast. Last edited by Glock_17; July 31, 2017 at 07:42 PM.

July 31, 2017, 07:41 PM	#15
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,838	What's the ejector look like? What's the chamber like? Clean and shiny. Your 41 is extracting, not ejecting. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

August 1, 2017, 11:40 AM	#21
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	The only issues I've had with mine in about 35 years has been ammo related. Nothing whatever to do with the extractor or the mags. Smith 41's are extremely and notoriously fussy about the ammo they'll both shoot well and cycle the action using. And no 2 will shoot and cycle the same ammo. It is essential you try a box of as many brands as you can to find the ammo your pistol likes. The price of it makes no difference. And there is no problem using any flavour of high velocity. Even stuff like Yellow Jackets(discontinued. sniff.) and Stingers, etc. work just fine. What's it do with high velocity ammo? A S&W 2206 is not a 41. "...it should work every time..." Lotta stuff like that. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

July 30, 2017, 08:52 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Mine is older and does well, even with recent production magazines. I don't have The Answer but I think I would try to find a real gunsmith to troubleshoot it instead of annoying the warranty clerk yet again.

July 30, 2017, 10:04 PM	#3
laytonj1 Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2005 Posts: 4,443	Is the spent case not extracting? My 1959 vintage 41 was doing that when I bought it. Advice was to replace the extractor with one from Volquartsen. Worked like a champ. Cost about $15 and was easy to replace. Jim

July 30, 2017, 10:13 PM	#4
turtlehead Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2015 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,203	Right on the spent case. I've thought about the VQ extractor... Guess I should give that a try.

July 30, 2017, 10:21 PM	#5
turtlehead Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2015 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,203	OK then. Just ordered it. We'll see how that goes...

July 30, 2017, 10:23 PM	#6
turtlehead Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2015 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,203	Jim, what is your failure rate with the VQ extractor? I'm at 30+% right now. Very depressing.

July 30, 2017, 10:50 PM	#8
turtlehead Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2015 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,203	I might just fall over dead if I can get that. Will update with my results in a week or so.

July 31, 2017, 02:59 PM	#9
Walt Sherrill Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 1999 Location: Winston-Salem, NC USA Posts: 6,348	I am TOTALLY unfamiliar with S&W Model 41s, so there may be some magic involved here that eludes me. That said, I don't understand how the magazine can be an issue UNLESS the feed lip gap is just a bit too wide. If the gap is too wide, the next round about to be fed COULD sit a bit higher than it should, and THAT might interfere with a round being dragged back by the extractor. Then, the round being extracted could be knocked out of the extractor's grasp before it hit the ejector. I'm pretty sure that could lead to some problems with feeding, etc., but I'm not sure it would give you a classic stovepipe jam, however.

July 31, 2017, 05:09 PM	#10
Kvon2 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 757	So I'm not familiar with the gun but I can tell you on my Remington 597 if the guide rods are over tightened from the rear it will stove pipe all day long. I know we're talking about a rifle vs a pistol but could anything be loosened up?

July 31, 2017, 07:10 PM	#12
turtlehead Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2015 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,203	Just to clarify: The spent case extracts fully from the chamber but is then jammed up by the next feeding round before it has a chance to clear the gun. I know asking about the magazines seems like a stretch but I just don't see anything else wrong with the gun. The extractor holds the case as it should. Feed ramp is smooth and shiny. No excessive wear anywhere after over 2000 rounds. Only use good standard velocity ammo. I was going to send all the mags back to S&W to test with the gun this time. I don't doubt it might just be a tuning issue that is beyond my understanding. I also wouldn't be surprised that there is a shortage of smiths experienced with this gun at S&W. They are very rarely produced and when they are only in short runs.

July 31, 2017, 07:28 PM	#13
Walt Sherrill Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 1999 Location: Winston-Salem, NC USA Posts: 6,348	Can you recreate the problem if you manually cycle the slide slowly with a spent round in the chamber, and a loaded mag in the gun?

July 31, 2017, 11:43 PM	#16
redlightrich Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2016 Posts: 323	I read a lot about this on the S&W forum, and some poor fellows have the darndest time, with FTE issues. I read these threads and these fellows try everything to no avail. This is why Clark makes the barrel without the rear top sight rail, to stop ejecting issues. I can't help but wonder, being it is a real target pistol, can the chamber be a tad too tight, which may slow the shell a tad and cause this issue? Just a guess. Why some guns are very reliable, while others not so much. Makes me wonder if the chamber fit can do it. Some people say the "cure" is add a drop of oil on the first round, which confounds me. I would think you would NOT want oil in the chamber, but folks swear by it? Please post your progress and good luck Rich

August 1, 2017, 07:27 AM	#17
turtlehead Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2015 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,203	@Walt Sherrill I will try that next time at the range. @Glock 17 I've used CCI SV almost exclusively but have tried about ten other types of ammo including some with slightly higher velocity. All with the same problem. @4V50 Gary Everything looks clean and sharp and normal. Is there anything I should be looking for with the ejector? @redlightrich I feel the same way as you about the drop of oil so have never tried it. Maybe I should... Maybe a little superstition is what it needs. I will certainly post my results and some pictures soonish. Thank you, everyone.

August 1, 2017, 07:52 AM	#18
Glock_17 Member Join Date: July 19, 2017 Posts: 33	Tbh i would demand my money back at that point........ At the same price point there are better target guns out there then a S&W 41. Hammerli 208 / 215 or even a X-esse. Walther GSP

August 1, 2017, 08:52 AM	#19
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	A friend's M41 responded to the drop of oil on the top round "superstition." Heck, poster Slamfire oils EVERYTHING.

August 1, 2017, 12:56 PM	#22
ShootistPRS Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2017 Posts: 1,583	Something to check is can the "bolt" be pulled back far enough to pick up a new round before the expended round gets to the ejector? What I am pointing to here is if the ammo you are using doesn't stroke the action far enough to eject then the round being picked up will have interference from the previously fired round. I would try some high velocity rounds before going a lot further.

August 1, 2017, 07:41 PM	#23
turtlehead Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2015 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,203	@Walt Sherrill I tried cycling out a spent casing manually ahead of a live round as you suggested. The case stuck in the chamber and the problem was recreated. I suppose that might suggest a tight chamber or a weak extractor. The extractor edge is straight and sharp BTW. @Jim Watson So is the oil meant to lube the chamber? I'll try it. @ T O'Heir I have not tried any high velocity. Just higher than standard. I do have a few boxes of Mini Mags on hand. Though I would prefer more accurate loads. @ShootistPRS I also cycled a mag of live rounds manually and they all ejected nicely.

August 1, 2017, 07:54 PM	#24
turtlehead Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2015 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,203	I may have found something... The extractor edge stands proud of the rim a few thousandths. It looks like maybe it should sit lower. Should it be touching the top of the rim?

August 1, 2017, 08:29 PM	#25
turtlehead Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2015 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,203	20170801_182405_resized.jpg That's the best I can do at the moment. Should there be that much air in between the extractor and the top of the rim? Last edited by turtlehead; August 1, 2017 at 10:00 PM.