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Old October 27, 2016, 04:54 PM   #1
Road_Clam
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possible SA 1884 purchase , need advice

Hey guys,
I've been interested in squiring a trapdoor something. I have a 1884 that i'm interested in. I know nothing about trapdoor rifles and would like your expertise on what I should look out for when purchasing used. I want a safe reliable shooter , not looking for a retired safe queen. Thanks !
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Old October 27, 2016, 08:57 PM   #2
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That's a difficult question to answer. Pictures are always helpful. If you find one, post pictures before you buy if possible. No way to guarantee a shootable rifle because you don't know what someone has done to it before you got it.

I always check the condition of the bore. I'm looking for pitting. The lands are very shallow by modern standards and so some people think they are worn out.

I do have one 1884 with some bad pitting in about the last three inches, but it is an excellent shooter. I only paid about $350 for it.

I have 3 1868 models in 50-70 gov. and two 1884 models in 45-70.

I will also suggest that if you get one, only shoot black powder in it.
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Old October 27, 2016, 09:47 PM   #3
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Like TK said, tough to judge without any idea of the overall condition and the dollars involved.

A few things I would look at or check in addition to the bore.

Face of the low arch block and fee trough for pitting. Good indicator of how the rifle was cared for.

Fore and aft play in the block (hold the locking lever vertical - unlocked - to check this).
Take along a sized and unprimed case with some scotch tape to do a poor mans headspace test.
Use the same empty to check the extractor and ejector as well.

Condition of the Buffington sight. Smooth movement of both the elevation and the windage adjustment?

Take a good look at the muzzle rifling for uneven wear from the metal cleaning rod (you didn't mention if it is a rod bayonet model or not).

I would also slug the bore if possible, hoping for a max of .460.
Over that and I would pass. HB 405's are not a lot of fun to cast.

My .02, JT
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Old October 28, 2016, 08:45 AM   #4
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Thanks guys, the asking price of the rifle is $750. They are claiming a "good" bore. They did email me pics and i see all the typical dings, chips and light corrosion of the era. Going to look at it today ill be sure and inspect the bore and the block.
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Old October 28, 2016, 07:38 PM   #5
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Well, it looked nice enough to buy so i'm the proud owner of a 1884 ! They wouldn't budge on the price so i't seemed worth the $750. The block locks in very solid, zero play. The rear sight functions smooth with again no play. The hammer and trigger functions crisp and the barrel looks very nice. Slight haze to it but I don't see any corrosion. Wood is got many small dings and chips but I think I will do a simple refinish of the wood. I don't see any collector value in this rifle so I just want a nice looking shooter. I think I will also send out the rifle to be re-blued.











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Old October 28, 2016, 08:49 PM   #6
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From what I can see I think you did fine. $750 is about the going rate for one in that condition these days. Can't tell too much about the bore.

Just remember you have to be careful about what you shoot in it.

TK
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Old October 28, 2016, 09:41 PM   #7
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I suffered serious Trapdoor angst at a local show about a month ago. Tacked out Injun rifle-perhaps my greatest weakness. Could have had it well under 500, too. Bore was nice. Wife (a little Injun herself) was saying "Buy it!!!

Turned out to be a cut-down '84 with a loose breech. Somebody did a poor job of trying to sweat solder on a front sight and that is heat discoloration visible at the muzzle. Too bad... but as much as I liked the looks of it, I don't need an expensive wall decoration.

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Old October 29, 2016, 03:40 AM   #8
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It certainly does have collector value, but rebluing and refinishing would take care of that. It would turn a $750 rifle into a $450 rifle. It is your rifle but please reconsider the bluing and wood refinishing, it is a great piece of American history that has survived the last 125 years. Check out trapdoorcollector.com, you can learn a lot of the history of your rifle from some of the most knowledgeable folks around.

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Old October 29, 2016, 12:23 PM   #9
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So got to the range today and here's my report: The rifle functioned flawlessly. However the elevation is WAY high, i'm shooting about 16" high at 100 yds. I was shooting factory FC 300 gr ammo advertised at 1850 fps for velocity. Now i'm guessing i'm shooting high because of a factory lighter bullet and higher velocity. I read that the trapdoors shooting high is normal but I definately want to establish a 100 yd zero rather than the standard 250. I got the windage dialed perfect for me. My eyes are poor and I struggle with irons especially the trapdoor's LONG sight radius, narrow front blade, and the fact the rear is a wedge type notched sight. Popped off 20 rounds and my shoulder is TOAST ! Here's a few pics of the bore :



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Old October 29, 2016, 12:57 PM   #10
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Please tell me you were not shooting Hornady LeverRevolution in that rifle. The rifle was NEVER designed for those pressures. If I misunderstood, please forgive me, but this is very dangerous.

Remington sells a 405 gr load that they say is safe for Trapdoors. It says safe for all rifles on the box. I would shoot those, but nothing else.

These rifles are designed for black powder and will give up if you continue to shoot ammo it was not designed to withstand.

Please understand it will blow up eventually.
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Old October 29, 2016, 02:02 PM   #11
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I was shooting Federal Blue box 300 gr ammo ? The gun store I bought the rifle from told me the Fed ammo is safe to shoot through a Trapdoor
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Old October 29, 2016, 02:22 PM   #12
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I personally would not shoot that ammo from a 130+ year old rifle. I know there are folks that reload smokeless in 45-70 for these riles and do so for years. I am not one of them. Remember your face is very close to that breech block. They were never designed for smokeless and copper jacketed bullets.

TK
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Old October 29, 2016, 03:35 PM   #13
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I have shot a fair amount of the Remington 405 ammo through trapdoors with no issue, but reloading with black powder would be the best bet. There is also cowboy action shooting ammo that is safe for the old guns.
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Old October 29, 2016, 04:30 PM   #14
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I already handload so been doing my research and I bought some 405 gr hard cast RNFP's and 6# of both Goex 2FG and 3FG. Bought the RCBS 45-70 "Cowboy" dies, just need to make a drop tube then I should be set to handload BPRC
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Old October 31, 2016, 09:09 AM   #15
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If I read right, its the '84 version of the M1973. Without the Serial Number I cant say when it was made. You should find that out.

It the later life of the M '73s the Army was starting to use smokeless powder in the 45-70. The smokeless powder loads never were fully adopted because the Army went to the 30-40 Krag.

I have a later model with the newer sights. The sights were set up for the 405 gr bullet with a velocity between 1200-1300 fps.

A good safe smokeless load for the trapdoors is 28 grs of 4198 pushing the 405 gr. bullet. It's right with the black powder pressures, the same 1200-1300 fps velocities, and it matches the sight marks on my rifle.

What's more, its a pleasure to shoot. In my old age I have become a wimp when it comes to recoil, yet I can shoot the above load, (with the rifle's steel buttplate) all day without discomfort.

The max. pressure suggested for these rifles is 28000 psi. Per quick load, the above load develops 12500 psi.

Lyman's reloading manual list the 31.5 grs of 4198 as the min. load for the Trapdoor, @12400 PSI, but I've found the 28 gr. load comes closer to matching the original 405 BP load. It does match my sights better.

Remember, the 45-70 was originally the 45-70-500, or a 45 cal bullet, pushing a 500 gr. bullet with 70 grs of black powder for the RIFLE.

The carbine load was 45-55-405, or a 405 gr 45 cal. bullet, pushed by 55 grns of BP.

Late loading the army adopted the 405 gr for the Rifle, Carbine and Cadet rifle.

Of course, this all depends on the condition of your rifle. If in doubt I'd recommend using the 55 gr. BP load, Making sure with black powder, the bullet is seated firmly on the bullet.
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Old October 31, 2016, 12:33 PM   #16
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As always, thanks Kraig for your info. I plan on loading both BP and smokeless. I have 4198, Trail Boss, RL-7, and Unique. All seem to be great powders for 45-70 loads. Right now im doing my research on the usage of spacer wads when loading light charges of smokeless. I also bought the Trapdoor reloaders guide by Spencer Wolf. Awesome TD handloading guide. The book also goes into deep detail about to correctly use the Buffington sight. I hope in the future to take my 1884 out to 600 yds
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Old October 31, 2016, 01:18 PM   #17
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Road, You'll love shooting the rifle. First time I shot mine was at an informal 1000 yard BPCR match. (Not requiring BP). I had some of the above 4198 loads on hand for my Browning High Wall. I set the sights on 1000 and was right on for elevation. Way off for windage, took a while to get that straight.

Now you have to get a Trap door in 50-70, they make a pair. It fun to shoot also but I do stick to BP on that rifle.

Have fun and good shooting.
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Old October 31, 2016, 02:04 PM   #18
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I think kraig has it backwards. The 1873 loads were .45-70-405 rifle, .45-55-405 carbine. The .45-70-500 came in about 1881 after the Sandy Hook extreme long range tests. Which really favored the 2.4" case .45-80-500 but the Army did not want to have to change the case and chamber.
The Army smokeless loads were very hard on the old guns. If you don't want to use black, modern progressive smokeless is much milder.

SAAMI maximum pressure is indeed 28000 CUP but many sources recommend only 18000 for the Trapdoor.

Bulk hard cast, hard wax lubed bullets seldom satisfy with black powder. Good luck.
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Old October 31, 2016, 03:09 PM   #19
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Black powder and lead bullets only in my TDs, one should be gentle to that 130 year old metal. And that big could of white smoke.....
Agains, pictures, bought my M1884 in 1991, near mint condition.
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Old October 31, 2016, 09:11 PM   #20
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Today I took the rifle apart. No issues except the rear barrel band was a pia to slide off very tight. The front slid off no problem with a few taps with a plastic mallet. Even the internals look to be in excellent condition. No corrosion all the parts look in excellent condition, i'm pretty confident this rifle spent most all of it's life in a low humidity enviroment and was cared for well. Feeling lucky to have snatched up a historic piece of battle rifle. So now i'm up to an M1 , M1A, Mosin 91/30 , Mauser K98 , and a 1884 TD. Would like to find a nice Enfield someday...
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Old November 1, 2016, 09:25 AM   #21
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Road you have a good start on your collection, keep it up, an enjoyable venture.

I stick mostly to US Arms, though I do have a Mosin and a Remingtion Rolling block in .43 Spanish, but my main collection is USGI, post Cartridge rifle

I have the 50-70 Trapdoor, 45-70 Trap door, 30-40 Krag, M1917, Model 1903 A3, Model 1903A4, Garand (2), Carbine, semi version of the M14, M16A1, M16A2, and M4.

Except for the 50-70 Trapdoor, I have the original USGI bayonets for each of the Above.

I probably wont live long enough to see the Army going to another rifle, so I guess I'll have to start working backwards to the muzzle loaders.

I shoot all the above rifles.
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Old November 2, 2016, 02:52 PM   #22
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Hi, kraigwy,

You wrote, "Except for the 50-70 Trapdoor, I have the original USGI bayonets for each of the Above."

Maybe I misunderstand, and you are more knowledgeable on trapdoors than I, but I do not believe there was any .50-70 bayonet, as such. All were "left over" Civil War .58 rifle-musket bayonets. The bayonets were not changed as the .50-70 barrels were altered by sleeving and the outside diameter was not altered. When the caliber was reduced, new bayonets were made; that lasted until mid-1878 when new machinery made it possible to cold swage the sockets of the old bayonet to the new barrel size. After that, there were no new trapdoor bayonets made until the rod bayonet made the separate bayonet obsolete.

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Old November 2, 2016, 10:51 PM   #23
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James you are correct. The first 50-70s were modified from the Springfield Muzzle loaders and they used the Muzzle loader bayonets.
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Old November 3, 2016, 02:23 PM   #24
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IIRC all the socket bayonets for TDs were CW surplus, one of the reasons the M1888 was developed was because the supply of leftovers was drying up.
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Old November 6, 2016, 11:28 AM   #25
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Quote:
IIRC all the socket bayonets for TDs were CW surplus, one of the reasons the M1888 was developed was because the supply of leftovers was drying up.

I am not too sure of that. The bayonet for my Trapdoor, while similar in looks, is about 80% of the size of the bayonet for my '61 Springfield in the barrel sleeve area.

Notice that the sleeve on the trapdoor bayonet on the left is a little thinner than the '61 Springfield bayonet on the right. If they had reduced the diameter of the sleeve by swaging it smaller, the thickness of the sleeve would have been thicker instead.


Also there are subtle differences between the two.

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