Curious about origin of Lee Enfield No.4 Mk1

Sbf · October 24, 2016, 06:45 PM

Recently I've purchased a Lee Enfield No4 mk1 and I'm very curious as to the guns origin. The guns wristband where most of your origin marks would be has been replaced with a generic piece with only a serial #. The serial on the side of the rifle is marked LB208XX. Its also marked as a FTR, and came with a matching magazine to the bolt and receiver. The muzzle of the gun has No.4 Great Britain stamped on the top, and TG KNOX TN 303 British on the bottom. Does anybody know anything about this guns origin? My original thought was Canadian, hence the LB for Longbranch on the reciever, although it lacks the full Longbranch name. I'll have pictures to follow shortly. Thanks.

Sbf · October 24, 2016, 06:58 PM

http://imgur.com/a/zeFrJ Sorry for the third party images, the files were too large for a direct upload. i guess you all will get to see the full serial number after all lol

highpower3006 · October 24, 2016, 10:31 PM

It's kind of hard to see, but the picture of the rear of the receiver says No4Mk1 ROF F which is the (R)oyal (O)rdnance (F)actory at (F)azakerly. Ahead of that is the "FTR" which shows that it went through a factory inspection and rebuild.

The rest of the stuff near the muzzle is from the importer.

tahunua001 · October 24, 2016, 10:32 PM

I'm not an expert on them but I can tell you that the wrist band can't be replaced, that is part of the receiver, without it, there is no gun. the markings on the muzzle are import marks, and god awful ones at that. as for any additionaly information, someone else who knows much more than I should be along shortly.

oh, and that is definitely not a longbranch, long branch only made the MK1* which was an expedient model and wouldn't have had the spring loaded bolt release.

Sbf · October 25, 2016, 07:45 AM

Thank you guys, I really couldn't tell with this piece and Enfield's and Japanese rifles are what I know the least about. Does anybody have an idea what happened to the wristband? Its got completely different numbers than everything else and no factory marks. Maybe the Factory replaced it somehow during FTR? Didn't meet their specs somehow? I don't know how that could really affect the gun firing, maybe someone just decided to file off some stuff.

highpower3006 · October 25, 2016, 10:21 AM

What you call a wrist band is the butt socket. It is machined as part of the receiver and as was stated, it is not replaceable.

The number on the butt socket matches the number on the bolt, but it is six numbers off of the number on the side of the receiver (LB2880 vs LB2886).

I think that when the numbers were engraved, the operator that did it got a little confused, as the likelihood of serial numbers with as many digits as that has being exactly the same except for the last digit seems pretty odd when going through the random rebuild mix-n-match.

I have a No4Mk1 that still has the original serial number on the socket, but it is stamped so faintly that a new number was engraved on the side of the receiver by the importer. I suspect that when yours went through the FTR they just assigned a new serial number to it rather than trying to decipher what the original might be.

Sbf · October 25, 2016, 11:05 AM

That makes sense, thanks highpower, I really appreciate it, I like to keep accurate records of my guns and getting this sorted is a good thing

T. O'Heir · October 25, 2016, 01:11 PM

Hi. All the "TG KNOX TN 303 British" stuff is U.S. civilian importer marks. Nothing whatever to do with the maker. Done with an electric pencil too.
I think the S/N on the bolt has been over stamped to make it look original and 'matching'. Mind you, the S/N on the wrist is kind of suspicious looking too. The S/N on the mag is definitely re-stamped.
The broad arrows indicate Brit military acceptance. The stamps under the rear sight don't belong there.
The "FTR" means Factory Through Repair. Brit for arsenal rebuild.
An initial 'LB' S/N does indicate Canada, but there'd be fairly heavy 'Longbranch' stamp. Possible it was removed and re-serial numbered during the FTR though. Usually that'd have the 'Longbranch' struck out with a line. This one's nearly mint.
https://joesalter.ca/products/lee-en...anch-no-4-mk-1
In any case, have the headspace checked before you shoot it.

Sbf · October 25, 2016, 07:55 PM

I just wonder if this gun didn't have a hell of a life during its service. To my eyes it looks like it saw some service that was heavy, whether that be combat or targeting i have no idea, however there are multiple places where wood has been laid into the original to make it have smooth wooden surfaces. Might have been picked up with shrapnel damage at one point. It could've been so damaged most of the parts were re stamped or replaced with matching number put in. I don't think it's necessarily a hodgepodge of parts however because I've seen a few in a similar condition to this. Headspace is fine also, I've already ran about 20 rounds through it to check if it still works and is accurate, had to clean the bolt really finely as it had so much cosmoline on it the ejector wouldn't slide into position. The barrel and bore are in excellent condition so it's either been replaced, or my theory is wrong. In any case this gun was around $300 dollars and if it wasn't as valuable as i thought i can beat the dog out of it and not feel guilty.

James K · October 26, 2016, 06:54 PM

Caution, Nitpick Alert!

The term is FACTORY THOROUGH (not "THROUGH") REPAIR, meaning a complete overhaul.

British arsenals often removed the original maker's marking, including the serial number, and replaced the markings during an FTR.
_________________________________________________________

TG GUNS is probably::

TG International
P.O. Box 787
Louisville, TN 37777
(865) 977-9707

See:
https://www.atf.gov/news/pr/former-o...district-court

__________________________________________

Long Branch is in Ontario; the factory there made thousands of No. 4 and No. 4 Mk I rifles during WWII.

Jim

October 24, 2016, 06:45 PM	#1
Sbf Junior Member Join Date: October 23, 2016 Posts: 5	Curious about origin of Lee Enfield No.4 Mk1 Recently I've purchased a Lee Enfield No4 mk1 and I'm very curious as to the guns origin. The guns wristband where most of your origin marks would be has been replaced with a generic piece with only a serial #. The serial on the side of the rifle is marked LB208XX. Its also marked as a FTR, and came with a matching magazine to the bolt and receiver. The muzzle of the gun has No.4 Great Britain stamped on the top, and TG KNOX TN 303 British on the bottom. Does anybody know anything about this guns origin? My original thought was Canadian, hence the LB for Longbranch on the reciever, although it lacks the full Longbranch name. I'll have pictures to follow shortly. Thanks. Last edited by Sbf; October 24, 2016 at 07:01 PM.

October 24, 2016, 10:32 PM	#4
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	I'm not an expert on them but I can tell you that the wrist band can't be replaced, that is part of the receiver, without it, there is no gun. the markings on the muzzle are import marks, and god awful ones at that. as for any additionaly information, someone else who knows much more than I should be along shortly. oh, and that is definitely not a longbranch, long branch only made the MK1* which was an expedient model and wouldn't have had the spring loaded bolt release. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

October 25, 2016, 10:21 AM	#6
highpower3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Location: Savannah TN Posts: 1,220	What you call a wrist band is the butt socket. It is machined as part of the receiver and as was stated, it is not replaceable. The number on the butt socket matches the number on the bolt, but it is six numbers off of the number on the side of the receiver (LB2880 vs LB2886). I think that when the numbers were engraved, the operator that did it got a little confused, as the likelihood of serial numbers with as many digits as that has being exactly the same except for the last digit seems pretty odd when going through the random rebuild mix-n-match. I have a No4Mk1 that still has the original serial number on the socket, but it is stamped so faintly that a new number was engraved on the side of the receiver by the importer. I suspect that when yours went through the FTR they just assigned a new serial number to it rather than trying to decipher what the original might be. Last edited by highpower3006; October 25, 2016 at 10:32 AM.

October 25, 2016, 01:11 PM	#8
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Hi. All the "TG KNOX TN 303 British" stuff is U.S. civilian importer marks. Nothing whatever to do with the maker. Done with an electric pencil too. I think the S/N on the bolt has been over stamped to make it look original and 'matching'. Mind you, the S/N on the wrist is kind of suspicious looking too. The S/N on the mag is definitely re-stamped. The broad arrows indicate Brit military acceptance. The stamps under the rear sight don't belong there. The "FTR" means Factory Through Repair. Brit for arsenal rebuild. An initial 'LB' S/N does indicate Canada, but there'd be fairly heavy 'Longbranch' stamp. Possible it was removed and re-serial numbered during the FTR though. Usually that'd have the 'Longbranch' struck out with a line. This one's nearly mint. https://joesalter.ca/products/lee-en...anch-no-4-mk-1 In any case, have the headspace checked before you shoot it. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

October 24, 2016, 06:58 PM	#2
Sbf Junior Member Join Date: October 23, 2016 Posts: 5	http://imgur.com/a/zeFrJ Sorry for the third party images, the files were too large for a direct upload. i guess you all will get to see the full serial number after all lol

October 24, 2016, 10:31 PM	#3
highpower3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Location: Savannah TN Posts: 1,220	It's kind of hard to see, but the picture of the rear of the receiver says No4Mk1 ROF F which is the (R)oyal (O)rdnance (F)actory at (F)azakerly. Ahead of that is the "FTR" which shows that it went through a factory inspection and rebuild. The rest of the stuff near the muzzle is from the importer.

October 25, 2016, 07:45 AM	#5
Sbf Junior Member Join Date: October 23, 2016 Posts: 5	Thank you guys, I really couldn't tell with this piece and Enfield's and Japanese rifles are what I know the least about. Does anybody have an idea what happened to the wristband? Its got completely different numbers than everything else and no factory marks. Maybe the Factory replaced it somehow during FTR? Didn't meet their specs somehow? I don't know how that could really affect the gun firing, maybe someone just decided to file off some stuff.

October 25, 2016, 11:05 AM	#7
Sbf Junior Member Join Date: October 23, 2016 Posts: 5	That makes sense, thanks highpower, I really appreciate it, I like to keep accurate records of my guns and getting this sorted is a good thing

October 25, 2016, 07:55 PM	#9
Sbf Junior Member Join Date: October 23, 2016 Posts: 5	I just wonder if this gun didn't have a hell of a life during its service. To my eyes it looks like it saw some service that was heavy, whether that be combat or targeting i have no idea, however there are multiple places where wood has been laid into the original to make it have smooth wooden surfaces. Might have been picked up with shrapnel damage at one point. It could've been so damaged most of the parts were re stamped or replaced with matching number put in. I don't think it's necessarily a hodgepodge of parts however because I've seen a few in a similar condition to this. Headspace is fine also, I've already ran about 20 rounds through it to check if it still works and is accurate, had to clean the bolt really finely as it had so much cosmoline on it the ejector wouldn't slide into position. The barrel and bore are in excellent condition so it's either been replaced, or my theory is wrong. In any case this gun was around $300 dollars and if it wasn't as valuable as i thought i can beat the dog out of it and not feel guilty.

October 26, 2016, 06:54 PM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Caution, Nitpick Alert! The term is FACTORY THOROUGH (not "THROUGH") REPAIR, meaning a complete overhaul. British arsenals often removed the original maker's marking, including the serial number, and replaced the markings during an FTR. _________________________________________________________ TG GUNS is probably:: TG International P.O. Box 787 Louisville, TN 37777 (865) 977-9707 See: https://www.atf.gov/news/pr/former-o...district-court __________________________________________ Long Branch is in Ontario; the factory there made thousands of No. 4 and No. 4 Mk I rifles during WWII. Jim