Slug or bullet? Which is better?

Pond, James Pond · January 5, 2016, 07:17 PM

I am presently trying (again) to acquaint myself with the national hunting act here with a view to finally getting my hunting licence as per one of my new year's resolutions.

One aspect of the law outlines limitations on what can be used to hunt what. An interesting aspect was that of calibre choices for a given game type. For the large game here (but including wild-boar, which I'd have described as "medium"), they state the use of bullets only, 130gn and 6.5mm minimum.

There is no mention of energy or velocity. They do specify bullets from cartridges so I think that excludes BP for sure.

However, the oddity for me is that they do specify the use of rifled barrels. That seems to be to intentionally exclude shotguns. However, I'd have thought that a 12ga shotgun with a slug would pack quite a bit more punch than a 6.5x55 SPBT, for instance.

Admittedly, it largely depends on range, but here you don't get huge distances, for the most part.

So, does this exclusion of slugs make sense to you for those game that are boar and larger? If not, at which point does it start to lean in the rifled cartridges' favour?

jmr40 · January 5, 2016, 08:03 PM

I'd hunt any animal short of dangerous game with a 6.5X55 and good bullets in it and feel very confident. Anything I wouldn't hunt with the 6.5 I wouldn't hunt with a slug either.

Brian Pfleuger · January 5, 2016, 08:14 PM

It might just be the easiest way to eliminate "large" bore but weak implements like 410 shotguns. Rather than listing exceptions/inclusions/exclusions, just eliminate all smooth bore guns. At least here in the states a great many modern 12 and 20ga slug guns have rifled barrels so they would be legal under those requirements.

mete · January 5, 2016, 08:20 PM

What about range ? A 12GA with buckshot should be limited to25 yds.With slug greater range but shotguns often don't have the accuracy. Here we have rifled barrels and with sabot slugs are very accurate at 100yds ! But then someplaces would call that a rifle .BTW IIRC Huskvarna made some rifling that was straight !!! to bypass the rules !
The 6.5x55 of course is good to 300yds or more!

TimSr · January 6, 2016, 09:55 AM

12 gauge slugs are far more effective at close range. We have some populous states here that are restricted to shotgun slugs just because of the tractory and shorter distances. 12 slugs are often carried by guides as big bear defense guns.

My guess is that your restrictions are based on accuracy rather than energey. from what I understand, marksmanship is even a licensing requirement in a lot of European countries. As a practical reality, smooth bores with slugs usually achieve adequate accuracy for typical eastern US woodlands deer or hog hunting shots, but may not meet your country's marksmanship standards.

In these shotgun only deer states in the US, though, out of necessity in more recent years, they developed rifles shotgun barrels, and saboted ammo specifically designed for them, as well as shotgun optics, that allows you to shoot extremely accurrately at much greater distances, even past 150 yards or more, in essence, with a large bore rifle. From your description of the regulations, it looks like rifled barreled shotguns would meet the legal criteria.

Branko · January 6, 2016, 11:19 AM

Rifled shotguns would be legal. Smoothbore certainly would not be ineffective, although accuracy is not so first rate.

In my country, for big game, only Brenneke-type slugs are allowed, but in general hunting laws are such a mess that I'm staying away for the time being.

T. O'Heir · January 6, 2016, 02:04 PM

You're trying to apply logic where none exists. The civil servants who make these daft laws have no idea what they're talking about.
And every jurisdiction has daft hunting laws. From Pennsylvania's no semi-auto's for hunting to Ohio's pistol cartridge rifles only to part of Ontario's nothing greater than .275 calibre by the cartridge name. Trying to figure out why the laws are written the way they are is like trying to figure out why a cartridge is called what it is. It'll give you brain damage.
"...rifling that was straight..." Dates from the earliest days of firearms in the 14th Century.

Blindstitch · January 6, 2016, 06:03 PM

Many places do this. They just want to put people on a level ground for what they think is right.

Here we have limits on size like using a 22lr on squirrels is ok but for deer it isn't even though I'm sure more than enough 22lr's have killed deer. Same thing for handgun deer. They won't let you use a 9mm but I believe you can use a 40.

In the long run it's your job to make sure you have an effective cartridge that will do the job. By the way I hate slugs as a wrongly place one does lots of damage to the meat. And yes I know because I was young and dumb once.

johnwilliamson062 · January 7, 2016, 09:00 PM

Quote:

We have some populous states here that are restricted to shotgun slugs just because of the tractory and shorter distances.

The dangerous range of sabotted 12 ga slugs is close to one mile. Possibly more.

Quote:

Many places do this. They just want to put people on a level ground for what they think is right.

In Ohio there is an older group that is all about "sporting." I have met several who think using anything but a historic muzzle loader is "unsporting." They throw fits when any of these regs allowing new weapons are passed.

Pond, James Pond · January 9, 2016, 04:23 AM

Well, to add to the confusion, here'sa thought that occurred to me as I read yet another positive review of the CZ 527 in 7.62x39...

As long as I used a slightly heavier bullet than the standard 125gn, the law would currently make hunting brown bear or elk (moose) with 7.62x39 legal.

Whilst it is quite a heavy hitting round in military terms, I don't get the impression from those on here that this would be an effective/ethical round to use on such large game.

So x39 with a 130gn bullet is OK, but a 400gn slug is not!!

This is when I feel velocity or muzzle energy minimum requirements would be a good thing to specify in the law.

gyvel · January 9, 2016, 04:43 AM

Quote:

For the large game here (but including wild-boar, which I'd have described as "medium"), they state the use of bullets only, 130gn and 6.5mm minimum.

Perhaps that was put into the law to accommodate some of the Swede rifles left over from the Continuation War.

Snyper · January 9, 2016, 06:13 PM

Quote:

The dangerous range of sabotted 12 ga slugs is close to one mile. Possibly more.

That range only applies if the gun is fired at a 30-40 degree upwards angle, and is far shorter than most centerfire rifles.

A slug fired parallel to the ground won't go much over 150 yards before hitting the ground

big al hunter · January 10, 2016, 01:19 AM

Quote:

A slug fired parallel to the ground won't go much over 150 yards before hitting the ground

Maybe yours might. My 12 gauge is zeroed at 100 yards and is only 9 inches low at 200. It falls off fast after that, but it will still be airborne at 300 yards. That is however much shorter than a modern rifle caliber. Most will be hitting the ground by 500 yards.

I suspect that the law is to prevent use of what someone believes is inadequate for the game being hunted. Similar equipment rules are used in many states in the U.S. In Washington every type of hunting weapon has restrictions that are intended to ensure ethically harvesting game animals. The weapon restrictions here are different for species being hunted as well.

In my experience on deer a shotgun slug kills them just as dead as a 30-06. Perhaps there is historical evidence that was used showing that smooth bore weapons were not as effective. I believe modern sabot technology would be a good argument to change that view....but it might not be convincing enough for your lawmakers. I would use my shotgun on your elk or brown bear. But it is rifled, has a scope and uses copper jacketed pistol bullets in sabots. I would not hunt them with a 7.62x39....

shortwave · January 11, 2016, 12:18 PM

You're right big al hunter.

And one of the most dangerous , misconceived concepts of the slug is some people really think a slug is only capable of traveling a few 100yds period before it hits the ground.

Slugs are very capable of that kind of yardage even after a close up ,clean ,broadside pass through shot not hitting bone on a deer. Obviously,The very reason backstop is so important.

Thinking in terms that 200yds is only two football fields and the fact that an arrow shot out of any moderate powered compound or crossbow has that kind of yardage capabilities, a 1oz 12gauge slug setting on top of a magnum charge of powder is surely capable of extremely longer distance.

Snyper · January 11, 2016, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Maybe yours might. My 12 gauge is zeroed at 100 yards and is only 9 inches low at 200. It falls off fast after that, but it will still be airborne at 300 yards. That is however much shorter than a modern rifle caliber. Most will be hitting the ground by 500 yards.

That's not "parallel to the ground", which is what I said

shortwave · January 11, 2016, 11:22 PM

^^^Then using that logic, I guess one could say it depended on how high up in the air the shotgun was shot 'parallel to the ground' as to how far the slug would travel before it hit the ground.

big al hunter · January 11, 2016, 11:37 PM

Snyper, I agree that my barrel is not parallel to the ground. It is in fact pointing up at about 3 minutes of angle

. Most people have a hard time seeing that much of an angle

How is this so different from any other trajectory discussion involving modern optics and long guns?

johnwilliamson062 · January 12, 2016, 04:10 PM

It's parallel somewhere...

I Weird Al could make a go of that.

samsmix · January 25, 2016, 02:50 PM

Bullets, hands down. A 6.5x55mm 140gr will disrupt as mush tissue as a slug up close due to expansion, and will only shine brighter as the distance increases. As you have included Brown Bears, I would step to a .30-06 or 7.62x54R as a minimum. Although I DO see a place for the 7.62x39/150gr on what you said were "medium" game sized hogs.

2 guns perhaps?

January 5, 2016, 07:17 PM	#1
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Slug or bullet? Which is better? I am presently trying (again) to acquaint myself with the national hunting act here with a view to finally getting my hunting licence as per one of my new year's resolutions. One aspect of the law outlines limitations on what can be used to hunt what. An interesting aspect was that of calibre choices for a given game type. For the large game here (but including wild-boar, which I'd have described as "medium"), they state the use of bullets only, 130gn and 6.5mm minimum. There is no mention of energy or velocity. They do specify bullets from cartridges so I think that excludes BP for sure. However, the oddity for me is that they do specify the use of rifled barrels. That seems to be to intentionally exclude shotguns. However, I'd have thought that a 12ga shotgun with a slug would pack quite a bit more punch than a 6.5x55 SPBT, for instance. Admittedly, it largely depends on range, but here you don't get huge distances, for the most part. So, does this exclusion of slugs make sense to you for those game that are boar and larger? If not, at which point does it start to lean in the rifled cartridges' favour? __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

January 5, 2016, 08:14 PM	#3
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	It might just be the easiest way to eliminate "large" bore but weak implements like 410 shotguns. Rather than listing exceptions/inclusions/exclusions, just eliminate all smooth bore guns. At least here in the states a great many modern 12 and 20ga slug guns have rifled barrels so they would be legal under those requirements. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

January 5, 2016, 08:20 PM	#4
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	What about range ? A 12GA with buckshot should be limited to25 yds.With slug greater range but shotguns often don't have the accuracy. Here we have rifled barrels and with sabot slugs are very accurate at 100yds ! But then someplaces would call that a rifle .BTW IIRC Huskvarna made some rifling that was straight !!! to bypass the rules ! The 6.5x55 of course is good to 300yds or more! __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

January 6, 2016, 02:04 PM	#7
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	You're trying to apply logic where none exists. The civil servants who make these daft laws have no idea what they're talking about. And every jurisdiction has daft hunting laws. From Pennsylvania's no semi-auto's for hunting to Ohio's pistol cartridge rifles only to part of Ontario's nothing greater than .275 calibre by the cartridge name. Trying to figure out why the laws are written the way they are is like trying to figure out why a cartridge is called what it is. It'll give you brain damage. "...rifling that was straight..." Dates from the earliest days of firearms in the 14th Century. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

January 9, 2016, 04:23 AM	#10
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Well, to add to the confusion, here'sa thought that occurred to me as I read yet another positive review of the CZ 527 in 7.62x39... As long as I used a slightly heavier bullet than the standard 125gn, the law would currently make hunting brown bear or elk (moose) with 7.62x39 legal. Whilst it is quite a heavy hitting round in military terms, I don't get the impression from those on here that this would be an effective/ethical round to use on such large game. So x39 with a 130gn bullet is OK, but a 400gn slug is not!! This is when I feel velocity or muzzle energy minimum requirements would be a good thing to specify in the law. __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

January 5, 2016, 08:03 PM	#2
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	I'd hunt any animal short of dangerous game with a 6.5X55 and good bullets in it and feel very confident. Anything I wouldn't hunt with the 6.5 I wouldn't hunt with a slug either.

January 6, 2016, 09:55 AM	#5
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	12 gauge slugs are far more effective at close range. We have some populous states here that are restricted to shotgun slugs just because of the tractory and shorter distances. 12 slugs are often carried by guides as big bear defense guns. My guess is that your restrictions are based on accuracy rather than energey. from what I understand, marksmanship is even a licensing requirement in a lot of European countries. As a practical reality, smooth bores with slugs usually achieve adequate accuracy for typical eastern US woodlands deer or hog hunting shots, but may not meet your country's marksmanship standards. In these shotgun only deer states in the US, though, out of necessity in more recent years, they developed rifles shotgun barrels, and saboted ammo specifically designed for them, as well as shotgun optics, that allows you to shoot extremely accurrately at much greater distances, even past 150 yards or more, in essence, with a large bore rifle. From your description of the regulations, it looks like rifled barreled shotguns would meet the legal criteria.

January 6, 2016, 11:19 AM	#6
Branko Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2015 Location: Croatia Posts: 188	Rifled shotguns would be legal. Smoothbore certainly would not be ineffective, although accuracy is not so first rate. In my country, for big game, only Brenneke-type slugs are allowed, but in general hunting laws are such a mess that I'm staying away for the time being.

January 6, 2016, 06:03 PM	#8
Blindstitch Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2013 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 2,693	Many places do this. They just want to put people on a level ground for what they think is right. Here we have limits on size like using a 22lr on squirrels is ok but for deer it isn't even though I'm sure more than enough 22lr's have killed deer. Same thing for handgun deer. They won't let you use a 9mm but I believe you can use a 40. In the long run it's your job to make sure you have an effective cartridge that will do the job. By the way I hate slugs as a wrongly place one does lots of damage to the meat. And yes I know because I was young and dumb once.

January 11, 2016, 12:18 PM	#14
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	You're right big al hunter. And one of the most dangerous , misconceived concepts of the slug is some people really think a slug is only capable of traveling a few 100yds period before it hits the ground. Slugs are very capable of that kind of yardage even after a close up ,clean ,broadside pass through shot not hitting bone on a deer. Obviously,The very reason backstop is so important. Thinking in terms that 200yds is only two football fields and the fact that an arrow shot out of any moderate powered compound or crossbow has that kind of yardage capabilities, a 1oz 12gauge slug setting on top of a magnum charge of powder is surely capable of extremely longer distance.

January 11, 2016, 11:22 PM	#16
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	^^^Then using that logic, I guess one could say it depended on how high up in the air the shotgun was shot 'parallel to the ground' as to how far the slug would travel before it hit the ground.

January 11, 2016, 11:37 PM	#17
big al hunter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2011 Location: Washington state Posts: 1,558	Snyper, I agree that my barrel is not parallel to the ground. It is in fact pointing up at about 3 minutes of angle. Most people have a hard time seeing that much of an angle How is this so different from any other trajectory discussion involving modern optics and long guns? __________________ You can't fix stupid....however ignorance can be cured through education!

January 12, 2016, 04:10 PM	#18
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	It's parallel somewhere... I Weird Al could make a go of that.

January 25, 2016, 02:50 PM	#19
samsmix Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2006 Location: Montana (Montucky?) Posts: 1,273	Bullets, hands down. A 6.5x55mm 140gr will disrupt as mush tissue as a slug up close due to expansion, and will only shine brighter as the distance increases. As you have included Brown Bears, I would step to a .30-06 or 7.62x54R as a minimum. Although I DO see a place for the 7.62x39/150gr on what you said were "medium" game sized hogs. 2 guns perhaps? __________________ You'll probably never NEED a gun. I hope you never do. But IF you do, you will need it worse than anything you've ever needed in your life. IF we're not supposed to eat animals, howcome God made 'em outta meat?