November 2, 2013, 09:54 AM | #101 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Likewise, Corrie ten Boom, whose family hid Jews from the Nazi's and lied about it had no integrity either. Of course, then there is Paul Rusesabagina of Hotel Rwanda fame who saved 1,268 by hiding them in his hotel and lying to the authorities about doing so. Here's another question I've asked and no one has answered yet. If the laws changed and guns were illegal; would you keep yours and lie about having them? Quote:
I assert that no one is bound to obey an immoral rule ever. I have demonstrated previously why the rule is immoral. As to the OP. Mr. Cothran was faced with an immoral rule. His company, because of venial self interest sought to deny his right to protect himself in a dangerous job where the company KNEW he very well would get robbed. Cothran ignored their immoral rule and protected himself. I would not call his act either immoral or lacking in integrity. But that's me. My belief is that due to the downside liability wise, most companies will never allow CCW at work. They can't really be successfully sued when an employee is killed by a criminal and they know that, so for them it is a no brainer. Those who feel this is immoral may choose to disobey such a rule and not be dishonest IMHO. I also believe that this choice is a common one we gun owners face often. Therefore worthy of our discussion which has been great BTW
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
||
November 2, 2013, 09:59 AM | #102 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 17, 2013
Posts: 140
|
Funny, TG...Corrie Ten Boom came to my mind as well, along with all those who fall in her category. It is always easier to be politically correct than to stand on principle. And there will always be those who will argue the point, regardless of what the point is.
And in the words of Charley Waite (Kevin Costner, Open Range)..."Some things weigh on a man worse than dying..." In this instance, some things weigh on a man more than unemployment...I'd just lose my job before I would take the gun out of the truck. I outgrew Mother-May-I years ago.
__________________
Don't invest in idiots....the market's flooded!!! |
November 2, 2013, 10:11 AM | #103 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
Carry at Work
I didn't say the word is universal. The principle is universal. I even gave examples.
We all know the difference. Arguing about cops lying to criminals is silly. Same with people hiding Jews. If those are your best arguments, you've lost the argument. Folks will just shut you off. The reasons for those things are clear beyond any common sense requirement for definition. Just like murder is wrong but it's not wrong to kill someone in self defense. Arguing that a cop lying to a criminal means that lying is either ok or the cop is immoral is the same as arguing that either murder is ok or killing in self defense is wrong. Pure, unadulterated silliness. |
November 2, 2013, 10:31 AM | #104 | ||
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
Quote:
Comparing people like Corrie ten Boom and Paul Rusesabagina to the guy who lies to his boss about keeping a gun in his car in violation of company policy (to which he agreed by reason of his employment) is an insult to people like Corrie ten Boom and Paul Rusesabagina.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
||
November 2, 2013, 10:39 AM | #105 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 17, 2013
Posts: 140
|
I am self-employed...and am required by my employer to carry.
__________________
Don't invest in idiots....the market's flooded!!! |
November 2, 2013, 10:42 AM | #106 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|||||
November 2, 2013, 10:47 AM | #107 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,720
|
You bellow "sense of proportion" while comparing the extreme ends of the spectrum and conveniently ignoring the interesting middle cases -- a pizza delivery guy, or the night clerk at a large-chain convenience store or pharmacy that has a corporate "no guns" policy.
__________________
"Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth |
November 2, 2013, 11:02 AM | #108 | ||
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
But proportion and the fact that Corrie ten Boom and Paul Rusesabagina were accepting the certainty of grave personal consequences to themselves if discovered in order to help others make the nature and quality of their actions different from (and not comparable to) Mr.Cothran's.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
||
November 2, 2013, 11:13 AM | #109 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 1,294
|
IMO...
I think its a slippery slope to judge others moral actions for survival. Bottom line is each individual has to look out for themselves and there is never right or wrong answer as long as its done with integrity. The store clerk may have had no other options for employment. Lying can get you killed, or it can save your life and a person with integrity has to decide which path gets the best outcome for all parties involved.
__________________
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2 |
November 2, 2013, 11:21 AM | #110 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
So, I am not misrepresenting you by saying you concede that it may be permissible to lie? If so, we can then argue the criteria for when that is appropriate. However, if you contend it is never permissible to lie (and that is a fair position) then we have no ground to cover, but prior in this thread there has been a lot of chortling about "honor" and "integrity" which I think misses the point of this discussion. So Frank, given the facts of the OP story do you contend that Mr. Cothran was immoral, bereft of integrity and should have put his life at the mercy of the robber in order to obey a company work rule given the circumstances he faced? Let's assume for argument's sake that his choices were limited in other employment and avoid the "let 'em eat cake" view of "go find another job" dodge. I want to know what you think of these folks in that decision.
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|
November 2, 2013, 11:25 AM | #111 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|
November 2, 2013, 12:03 PM | #112 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
I see Mr. Cothran as a person who, like the rest of us, has made a variety of choices in his life that put him in a particular position causing him to face particular challenges. Perhaps he could have avoided those challenges by making different choices. It's too bad that he found himself in a position in which he felt he needed to violate his commitment to his employer in order to better secure his personal safety. I'm glad it worked out for him, but I'm also not going to fault his employer for enforcing a lawful workplace rule. His experience should, in my view, cause the employer to re-evaluate its rule, but I'm not going to put Mr. Cothran's act in the same class as those of Corrie ten Boom and Paul Rusesabagina.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|
November 2, 2013, 12:12 PM | #113 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
Carry at Work
You're right, TG, it's no argument at all because, as I said, it requires none but I gave you some examples anyway.
The principle is understood by the youngest children and it's understood by you too. You're either creating a Straw Man argument or, if not, no stranger on the internet will convince you of something that you've reached adulthood without understanding. I mean, you use Corrie Ten Boom as an example? This is a woman who believed in the God of the Bible and the authority of Scripture and had no trouble lying to Nazis. A clear example that ordinary people understand the differences, nuances and common sense application. Taking that example and applying it to such a minor question as voluntary employment with rules you don't like which do not directly endanger anyone's life, on a question that 90+% of American's never address in their entire lives anyway is just ludicrous. |
November 2, 2013, 12:27 PM | #114 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,059
|
Quote:
Honesty isn't always the best policy, but if I'm going to lie about something, I don't really have much of a right to ride my high horse around and let it poop on the carpet.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe |
|
November 2, 2013, 12:32 PM | #115 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Where I will disagree with you is that I do fault the company for enforcement of a legal yet immoral work rule. If you listen to Mr. Cothran's interview with Tom Gresham Oct 20, 2013 you will see that Mr.Cothran was faced with imminent danger and reacted to that threat. The only reason I bring up ten Boom and others is simply to show that it may be permissible to lie and not be dishonest. However, let's discuss the criteria for that and rather than use extremes of genocide lets discuss everyday life. And I mean concerning people NOT like you and me who really do have choices.
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; November 2, 2013 at 12:47 PM. |
|
November 2, 2013, 12:43 PM | #116 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Mr. Cothran (if you have read the article and listened to his interview with Tom Gresham) was faced with a real imminent threat and so are others in similar positions today. By the way, many feel (St. Augustine among the first) that self defense is a moral act and that the bible condones it so Mr. Cothran's choice was no less noble than ten Booms. He choose to protect his own life in contravention of an immoral work rule. Quote:
Also, your "90% never address this" is pure speculation and irrelevant. Even if the percentage is lower the issue is the same. I find your arguments rather lazy. Let's stick to the criteria of when it would be moral to disregard an immoral work rule.
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
||
November 2, 2013, 12:45 PM | #117 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|
November 2, 2013, 01:26 PM | #118 |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,820
|
To further stir the pot....
I consider an employer's no gun on premises rule to be immoral, only if they do nothing else to provide for employee safety.
I spent 30 years working for contractors at locations where it was absolutely verboten to possess arms, ammo, explosives, "dangerous weapons" (and don't get me started on that particular stupidity of phrasing) or even a knife with a blade more than 4". Never considered it immoral in the least. Of course, we also had professional security, armed with Uzis, M16s, M60s, H&Ks, a helicopter and an armored car (the kind meant for combat, not the kind meant for transporting money). People do hazardous things for money every day. Our right to arms does not trump another's property rights. We are NOT free citizens while we are on another person's dime. We are employees. We are not slaves. There are always choices. If you stay at a job where you are uncomfortable about your safety, because you are not allowed to be armed, isn't that, bottom line, your greed triumphing over your other principles?
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
November 2, 2013, 01:42 PM | #119 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Yes, I too worked in a compound for 5 years that was guarded by armed Marines while at the same time we were in very close proximity to a VERY bad neighborhood. I would never have tried to carry there but I felt very safe there. My mantra is: If you invoke disarmament you must insure it. I do disagree with you that "we always have choices" because a "choice" like not carry and be robbed or quit and starve" is not a real choice.
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|
November 2, 2013, 02:09 PM | #120 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
A rough parallel might be found in the application of the legal doctrine of necessity as a defense against tort liability. Under certain circumstances, the law will recognize a privilege to do something which would violate the property rights of another. But the circumstances must be extreme, and the person invoking the claim of necessity must still pay for the damage he did. So if you're stuck in a blizzard and would surely die without shelter, you may without moral fault or guilt trespass on someone's land and break into his unoccupied house. But you will still have to pay for the damage you caused.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|
November 2, 2013, 02:11 PM | #121 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
|
Quote:
|
|
November 2, 2013, 02:16 PM | #122 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Since Cothran had good reason to fear robbery based on the facts of the case is he then morally justified to ignore company policy and carry?
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|
November 2, 2013, 02:18 PM | #123 | ||
Staff
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,059
|
Quote:
That said, if we're talking about lying to an employer, the word "integrity" is especially inapt. Quote:
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe |
||
November 2, 2013, 02:25 PM | #124 | ||
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
||
November 2, 2013, 02:33 PM | #125 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
So what I seem to be getting from Tom Servo and Frank Ettin is that while they don't really like lying (I don't either) and believe that one should tell the truth, there may be times that lying is permissible?
It also seems that both of you seem to not think Mr. Cothran was dishonest in ignoring a company policy and are happy with the outcome (not sure about his being fired). So, I conclude that maybe you guys like how this turned out but don't want to be seen as endorsing wholesale lying to an employer? Now Brian seems a bit more rigid than you both, but I think we (Frank, Tom and I) may have a serious case of agreement going on here?
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
Tags |
carry at work cothran |
|
|