tumble lube being scratched off?

beex215 · July 15, 2011, 02:42 AM

i tumbled some cast bullets and when i seated them in the case, i noticed the lead is being shaved off. isnt it more important for the lube on the seated portion to stay on? the hidden part. the lube on the bullet head is still intact but from what i know, that part is relatively unimportant. from my understanding the rifling would engage the bottom portion of the bullet and not the top part.

PawPaw · July 15, 2011, 07:11 AM

If you're shaving lead, you're doing something wrong. For reloading cast bullets the mouth of the cartridge should be flared just enough that you can start the bullet by hand, then finish with the seating die. Go easy on the flaring, it's easy to flare too much. Some folks us a Lyman M die, some folks use a flow-though die, some folks use a Lee universal flare die, but you've got to flare the case for cast bullets in both handgun and rifle calibers.

beex215 · July 15, 2011, 07:37 AM

i bought the lee pace setter die set. i dont think it came with a flare die. the rounds were 308win and the lube was alox if that matters.

hornady · July 15, 2011, 07:48 AM

For cast rifle bullets you will need to buy one of the Dies mentioned above, it doesn’t came with your die sets, I have not found a need too use a separate die with pistol and cast bullets.
I use the Lyman –M die for rifle. Some are satisfied with the Lee universal expanding Die. The difference is the Lee die can be use on any caliber, were as the Lyman is caliber specific.

beex215 · July 15, 2011, 08:10 AM

well, it looks like im going to have another crappy range day again. first i didnt lube some bullets and i got horrible accuracy from leading. now i have improperly seated bullets that are technique stripped lubed. my beginnings of reloading in general and with lead isnt looking to well.

PawPaw · July 15, 2011, 08:38 AM

Quote:

well, it looks like im going to have another crappy range day again. first i didnt lube some bullets and i got horrible accuracy from leading. now i have improperly seated bullets that are technique stripped lubed. my beginnings of reloading in general and with lead isnt looking to well.

Sorry about that. Sometimes the learning curve with cast bullets is pretty steep. But, there's more to it than just shaving the lube off the bullets. The most important part of any rifle bullet is the base and with cast bullets, the next most important thing is bullet fit. If you're shaving lead then the bullet base is likely damaged and the bullet won't fit the bore.

However, you're learning and that's a good thing. Keep at it and you'll soon be shooting great groups with that rifle. Tell me, are you using gas checks? How hard are you pushing your bullets?

beex215 · July 15, 2011, 08:58 AM

its not gas checked and its a light load of 10 grains of unique.

PawPaw · July 15, 2011, 09:03 AM

Quote:

its not gas checked and its a light load of 10 grains of unique.

That's a fun load. I use it myself in the .30-30. I call it the Possum Load, because it's virtually perfect for rolling a possum into a ball. When you figure out how to lube and seat the bullets you're going to have a lot of fun plinking with that load.

hornady · July 15, 2011, 09:36 AM

Something that will help you out a lot, you need to order the flaring Die anyway, get a copy of the Lyman cast bullet Manual, The new one has a few loads for molds other than Lyman.
I load the pistol /shot gun powder in some 3030,308, and 3006. I have been playing with Red dot lately with a 170 grain Lyman mold. Not bad so far.

beex215 · July 15, 2011, 09:44 AM

i will need more items to get. thanks for the help

sc928porsche · July 16, 2011, 02:37 PM

If you chamfer the inside of the necks slightly to remove the sharp edge, it will help keep the shaving down.

chris in va · July 16, 2011, 06:25 PM

Quote:

If you chamfer the inside of the necks slightly to remove the sharp edge, it will help keep the shaving down.

This. That way you won't have to buy a flare die.

T. O'Heir · July 16, 2011, 10:15 PM

"...rounds were 308 Win..." No such thing as a flare die for .308. Bottle necked cases don't get flared. The case mouth needs to be chamfered and deburred. Don't tumble the lube off either. The bullet needs it over the whole length.
I'm not seeing any cast bullet loads in my Lyman book that don't require a gas check. Not using one will give you your accuracy issues. Your bullets have a place to put 'em?
Leading is caused by trying to drive a cast bullet too fast. 10 grains of Unique won't do that. Starting load or slightly under depending on the weight.

PawPaw · July 17, 2011, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

No such thing as a flare die for .308. Bottle necked cases don't get flared.

Not specifically, but cast bullet shooters have been using flare dies for ages. I routinely flare bottlenecked cases when I'm loading cast bullets and will continue to do so.

I use the Lee Die. Others like the Lyman M Die. Both flare the case neck so that they'll accept a cast bullet without shaving.

beex215 · July 17, 2011, 06:49 AM

im just going to shoot this batch up and report on it. ill put what i learned into the next batch.

FrankenMauser · July 17, 2011, 01:56 PM

Quote:

No such thing as a flare die for .308. Bottle necked cases don't get flared.

If it flares a .308 case, it's a .308 flare die (more correctly - a .308 'Expander' die).

flashhole · July 17, 2011, 05:18 PM

Did you make the bullets yourself? If yes, did you size them?

beex215 · July 17, 2011, 08:47 PM

they were made by me. they were not sized. the rifle rounds were dropped into water if that matters.

rogn · July 17, 2011, 08:50 PM

Gas checks are not necessary for lower velocity loads. Loads running under 1500 FPS with proper lube and bullet fit should perform just fine in a good barrel. I recently ran about 150 135gr cast bullets through a 7mm WSM with out cleaning. I had zero leading. The bullet was designed for a gascheck, but I wantd to make a light plinking practice load. We started out at about 1400 FPS and worked downward to about 1100 +- feet per second. Accuracy at 100 yd was about 1 1/2". Recoil only a figure of speech. I also neck turned these cases heavily and champfered them heavily so I could load the bullets by hand. The weak neck tension and inside taper allowed the bullet to start into the neck. I just chambered the rounds and let the bolt do the final seating.

flashhole · July 17, 2011, 08:51 PM

I run mine through a sizer and they are highly uniform. I also use Lee Liquid Alox mixed with some other stuff as a lube. A very thin coating is all that is needed to prevent leading. Sizing may help your situation.

adrians · July 18, 2011, 11:32 PM

i use .lyman "m" die ,,it doesn't so much "flare' the mouth but it puts slight "step" in the case mouth , it also aids in keeping your bullet centered in the case as it gets seated .
my stuff is old but i use a lyman 45 lube/sizer (no need to worry about "shaving off" any lube as only the lube grooves get lubed).
bottleneck case "m" dies can be got cos i use one on my 8x57 ,not always as somebody mentioned a little inside neck chamfer is all you need if your carefull .
now my trapdoor 45--70 cases are always "m" expanded.
have a great night.

.
OH i almost forgot to mention my pet peeve ; if a cast bullet is designed for a g/c,,, use one .its there for a reason.
o.k im done now.

beex215 · July 24, 2011, 08:32 AM

i shot them all and at 50 feet, you couldnt hit anything. 20 or so feet it was ok. i just speed loaded my gun for 3 hours and rapidly fired them as fast as i can so i could start all over. same thing with my 9mm. rapid firing 500 rounds is fun regardless.

UtopiaTexasG19 · July 24, 2011, 09:11 AM

If you speed loaded and fired for three hours some of your accuracy will go down the toilet from getting the barrel too hot!

July 15, 2011, 02:42 AM	#1
beex215 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Posts: 317	tumble lube being scratched off? i tumbled some cast bullets and when i seated them in the case, i noticed the lead is being shaved off. isnt it more important for the lube on the seated portion to stay on? the hidden part. the lube on the bullet head is still intact but from what i know, that part is relatively unimportant. from my understanding the rifling would engage the bottom portion of the bullet and not the top part.

July 15, 2011, 07:11 AM	#2
PawPaw Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Location: Central Louisiana Posts: 3,137	If you're shaving lead, you're doing something wrong. For reloading cast bullets the mouth of the cartridge should be flared just enough that you can start the bullet by hand, then finish with the seating die. Go easy on the flaring, it's easy to flare too much. Some folks us a Lyman M die, some folks use a flow-though die, some folks use a Lee universal flare die, but you've got to flare the case for cast bullets in both handgun and rifle calibers. __________________ Dennis Dezendorf http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com

July 16, 2011, 02:37 PM	#11
sc928porsche Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Location: now living in alabama Posts: 2,433	If you chamfer the inside of the necks slightly to remove the sharp edge, it will help keep the shaving down. __________________ No such thing as a stupid question. What is stupid is not asking it.

July 16, 2011, 10:15 PM	#13
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...rounds were 308 Win..." No such thing as a flare die for .308. Bottle necked cases don't get flared. The case mouth needs to be chamfered and deburred. Don't tumble the lube off either. The bullet needs it over the whole length. I'm not seeing any cast bullet loads in my Lyman book that don't require a gas check. Not using one will give you your accuracy issues. Your bullets have a place to put 'em? Leading is caused by trying to drive a cast bullet too fast. 10 grains of Unique won't do that. Starting load or slightly under depending on the weight. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

July 17, 2011, 05:18 PM	#17
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	Did you make the bullets yourself? If yes, did you size them? __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

July 15, 2011, 07:37 AM	#3
beex215 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Posts: 317	i bought the lee pace setter die set. i dont think it came with a flare die. the rounds were 308win and the lube was alox if that matters.

July 15, 2011, 07:48 AM	#4
hornady Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2009 Location: SWPA Posts: 428	For cast rifle bullets you will need to buy one of the Dies mentioned above, it doesn’t came with your die sets, I have not found a need too use a separate die with pistol and cast bullets. I use the Lyman –M die for rifle. Some are satisfied with the Lee universal expanding Die. The difference is the Lee die can be use on any caliber, were as the Lyman is caliber specific.

July 15, 2011, 08:10 AM	#5
beex215 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Posts: 317	well, it looks like im going to have another crappy range day again. first i didnt lube some bullets and i got horrible accuracy from leading. now i have improperly seated bullets that are technique stripped lubed. my beginnings of reloading in general and with lead isnt looking to well.

July 15, 2011, 08:58 AM	#7
beex215 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Posts: 317	its not gas checked and its a light load of 10 grains of unique.

July 15, 2011, 09:36 AM	#9
hornady Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2009 Location: SWPA Posts: 428	Something that will help you out a lot, you need to order the flaring Die anyway, get a copy of the Lyman cast bullet Manual, The new one has a few loads for molds other than Lyman. I load the pistol /shot gun powder in some 3030,308, and 3006. I have been playing with Red dot lately with a 170 grain Lyman mold. Not bad so far.

July 15, 2011, 09:44 AM	#10
beex215 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Posts: 317	i will need more items to get. thanks for the help

July 17, 2011, 06:49 AM	#15
beex215 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Posts: 317	im just going to shoot this batch up and report on it. ill put what i learned into the next batch.

July 17, 2011, 08:47 PM	#18
beex215 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Posts: 317	they were made by me. they were not sized. the rifle rounds were dropped into water if that matters.

July 17, 2011, 08:50 PM	#19
rogn Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2005 Posts: 203	Gas checks are not necessary for lower velocity loads. Loads running under 1500 FPS with proper lube and bullet fit should perform just fine in a good barrel. I recently ran about 150 135gr cast bullets through a 7mm WSM with out cleaning. I had zero leading. The bullet was designed for a gascheck, but I wantd to make a light plinking practice load. We started out at about 1400 FPS and worked downward to about 1100 +- feet per second. Accuracy at 100 yd was about 1 1/2". Recoil only a figure of speech. I also neck turned these cases heavily and champfered them heavily so I could load the bullets by hand. The weak neck tension and inside taper allowed the bullet to start into the neck. I just chambered the rounds and let the bolt do the final seating.

July 17, 2011, 08:51 PM	#20
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	I run mine through a sizer and they are highly uniform. I also use Lee Liquid Alox mixed with some other stuff as a lube. A very thin coating is all that is needed to prevent leading. Sizing may help your situation. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

July 18, 2011, 11:32 PM	#21
adrians Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2010 Location: mountain view ,ar. Posts: 184	i use .lyman "m" die ,,it doesn't so much "flare' the mouth but it puts slight "step" in the case mouth , it also aids in keeping your bullet centered in the case as it gets seated . my stuff is old but i use a lyman 45 lube/sizer (no need to worry about "shaving off" any lube as only the lube grooves get lubed). bottleneck case "m" dies can be got cos i use one on my 8x57 ,not always as somebody mentioned a little inside neck chamfer is all you need if your carefull . now my trapdoor 45--70 cases are always "m" expanded. have a great night.. OH i almost forgot to mention my pet peeve ; if a cast bullet is designed for a g/c,,, use one .its there for a reason. o.k im done now.

July 24, 2011, 08:32 AM	#22
beex215 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Posts: 317	i shot them all and at 50 feet, you couldnt hit anything. 20 or so feet it was ok. i just speed loaded my gun for 3 hours and rapidly fired them as fast as i can so i could start all over. same thing with my 9mm. rapid firing 500 rounds is fun regardless.

July 24, 2011, 09:11 AM	#23
UtopiaTexasG19 Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2011 Location: S.E. Texas Gulf Coast Posts: 743	If you speed loaded and fired for three hours some of your accuracy will go down the toilet from getting the barrel too hot!