Tueller Drill Out, De-escalation In? - Page 2

**44 AMP** · May 7, 2015, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Point taken about using common sense, but in the case of the Seattle officer and the homeless wood carver, approaching a menacing individual with a drawn knife is likely unwise in most such cases. Give the guy a wide berth while trying to convince him to put the knife down. Probably a good situation in which to draw one's weapon in case the guy charges.

That Seattle shooting is a particularly poor example of "de-escalation".
(at least according to the information I saw)

Cop flips a U turn in the street, seeing a man standing holding a knife. Approaches from behind him, GUN DRAWN, shouts "Drop it!DROPIT! DROPIT!" BANG!BANG!BANG!.

Apparently no chance was given to comply before shots were fired.
Further complicating matters, the homeless wood carver was #1) NOT threatening anyone, #2) known to the locals, #3) partially deaf, and also a "native American". IMNSHO, the officer was entirely wrong to fire when he did.

As to the 21foot rule, it was featured in a show a while back, with an ironic twist. Bad guy is a knife wielder, mentions the 21ft rule several times during the show, believes he is faster with his knife than someone with a gun inside that limit.

Final confrontation, bad guy is digging grave for his dog (at night), believing hero killed his dog. Hero confronts him, bad guy gives his 21foot spiel. Hero basically says, I believe you're wrong, but its your move.

Bad guy charges, hero draws, bad guy falls into dog's grave, dies impaled on his own knife. I love those scriptwriters!

I believe that the 21 foot rule is meant to show how a person with a knife COULD be a viable threat at more than arm's length distance. Not that everyone with a knife IS a threat at less than 7 yards distance.

A guideline, or reference point, not an absolute standard. Each case MUST be judged on it own evidence. A guy holding a knife, standing calmly 10 feet away with his back to you is one thing. The circus knife thrower, 22 feet away, facing you, with a knife in his hands and his arm raised is a different matter.

rightside · May 7, 2015, 04:36 PM

Interesting post.
I do take exception with the writer subtly inserting Michael Brown as one of the examples where the policeman might have made a better choice.

**4V50 Gary** · May 7, 2015, 05:16 PM

Officer approaches from behind and shouts, "Drop it! Drop it! Drop it!"

Ignoring for a moment that the perforated party is partially deaf, how's a person who is being shouted at from behind to understand who is giving the order and what they mean? If the officer shouted, "Seattle Police Department" or "Police!" first, then at least the command would seem more legitimate. Better yet, "Police! You with the knife! Drop it now!" would be even better.

I'm inclined to say bad shoot.

dirtd0g · May 7, 2015, 11:15 PM

Guns have entered a mythical status among the bulk of the civilian population. There is not just an ignorance but a thorough misunderstanding about them. There is more fear than respect for firearms. A gun in a holster in and of itself can cause widespread panic. There was some incident not to long ago where an older black man was carrying legally and some other guys in a store saw his weapon, freaked out, and kicked the crap out of him to take it away...

On the other end of the spectrum I remember a mall in Massachusetts getting locked down when some woman saw a man with a shotgun in his backpack and it ended up being a black umbrella.

While we are far removed from the old West where a functioning and available firearm was the difference between life and death on an often daily basis, there is a stark lack of widespread acceptance of firearms' existence in our world. I recently went to play in a nerdy Magic: The Gathering tournament after putting in some range time. I had a 9mm case that had ejected into my front pocket unbeknownst to me and when I pulled it out the look of awe changed to fear as my fellow nerds found out that I own, carry, and use guns regularly. The dynamic of interpersonal interaction suddenly changed. The kid with the fake bullet belt probably didn't feel as cool.

Regarding the OP, from a PR perspective every law enforcement organization in the country is going to make sure the public "knows" about how they are redoubling their efforts to promote deescalation and nonviolent intervention. From my 10 years in EMS I know already that most LEOs would prefer to talk down than shoot out, but no media outlet is going to cover the scores of successfully nonviolent interventions police departments have every day... That's just boring news.

"This just in! Everything is fine!"

May 7, 2015, 05:16 PM	#28
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	Officer approaches from behind and shouts, "Drop it! Drop it! Drop it!" Ignoring for a moment that the perforated party is partially deaf, how's a person who is being shouted at from behind to understand who is giving the order and what they mean? If the officer shouted, "Seattle Police Department" or "Police!" first, then at least the command would seem more legitimate. Better yet, "Police! You with the knife! Drop it now!" would be even better. I'm inclined to say bad shoot. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

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May 7, 2015, 04:36 PM	#27
rightside Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 419	Interesting post. I do take exception with the writer subtly inserting Michael Brown as one of the examples where the policeman might have made a better choice.

May 7, 2015, 11:15 PM	#29
dirtd0g Member Join Date: April 3, 2015 Location: New England Posts: 69	Guns have entered a mythical status among the bulk of the civilian population. There is not just an ignorance but a thorough misunderstanding about them. There is more fear than respect for firearms. A gun in a holster in and of itself can cause widespread panic. There was some incident not to long ago where an older black man was carrying legally and some other guys in a store saw his weapon, freaked out, and kicked the crap out of him to take it away... On the other end of the spectrum I remember a mall in Massachusetts getting locked down when some woman saw a man with a shotgun in his backpack and it ended up being a black umbrella. While we are far removed from the old West where a functioning and available firearm was the difference between life and death on an often daily basis, there is a stark lack of widespread acceptance of firearms' existence in our world. I recently went to play in a nerdy Magic: The Gathering tournament after putting in some range time. I had a 9mm case that had ejected into my front pocket unbeknownst to me and when I pulled it out the look of awe changed to fear as my fellow nerds found out that I own, carry, and use guns regularly. The dynamic of interpersonal interaction suddenly changed. The kid with the fake bullet belt probably didn't feel as cool. Regarding the OP, from a PR perspective every law enforcement organization in the country is going to make sure the public "knows" about how they are redoubling their efforts to promote deescalation and nonviolent intervention. From my 10 years in EMS I know already that most LEOs would prefer to talk down than shoot out, but no media outlet is going to cover the scores of successfully nonviolent interventions police departments have every day... That's just boring news. "This just in! Everything is fine!"