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Old August 13, 2022, 01:43 PM   #1
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87.000 additional well armed federal agents

I'm unclear about something,so I'm here to learn (not argue).
As I understand it, the BATF and the IRS come under the umbrella of the Treasury.
Is that true?
We are looking at 87.000 additional well armed IRS agents. Apparently being armed and willing to use deadly force is a qualification.

87,000 additional seems like a lot of agents

As non-military,posse comitatus would not apply.

I have memory of listening to this speech:

THEN-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE BARACK OBAMA: We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.

What do you think?
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Old August 13, 2022, 02:22 PM   #2
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Of course they won't be divided that way, but 87,000 works out to be 1,740 per state.

What possible use could the government have for that many new TAX agents, armed (and trained?) for combat???
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
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Old August 13, 2022, 02:28 PM   #3
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I don't know. The 87,000 is in the bill that just passed.
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Old August 13, 2022, 02:41 PM   #4
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The 87,000 number combined with the "armed federal agent" description is a bit misleading. Looking through there are a ton of job openings at the IRS but I'm only seeing 300 open for criminal investigator/special agent job.

Just to be clear I don't support expansion of the IRS.

Below is the job description for the criminal investigator if anyone was curious:

IRS-CI Special Agents (SAs) are duly sworn federal law enforcement officers throughout all 50 states and US territories including special agent attachés located in 11 countries. As a SA, you will combine your accounting skills with law enforcement skills to investigate financial crimes. SAs fill a unique niche in the federal law enforcement community due to IRS-CI's broad jurisdiction of Title 18 and Title 31 crimes, in addition to our primary tax enforcement mission. SAs are known for their financial investigative expertise in areas, such as, tax fraud, public corruption, cybercrimes, narcotics, terrorism, and much more. Today's sophisticated schemes demand the analytical ability of financial investigators to trace transactions through complex financial records.

The following are the duties of this position at the full working level. If this vacancy includes more than one grade and you are selected at a lower grade level, you will have the opportunity to learn to perform these duties and receive training to help you grow in this position.

The Special Agent plans and conducts investigations relative to criminal statutes of tax administration, financial crimes, and other related offenses, which vary in levels of complexity and scope. The majority of the time is spent on investigations involving most or all of the following characteristics:
Indirect accounting methods to establish evidence
Precedent setting legal or investigative questions
Highly complex or unusual accounting problems
Information obtained from diversified sources gathered over a wide section of the country
Interrelationship of facts and evidence that are difficult to identify because of numerous holding companies, entities, etc.
A mixture of legal and illegal activities
Performs other investigative and enforcement duties such as:
Testifying as a Government witness
Assisting the U.S. Attorney during the preparation of case for trial
Conducting collateral inquiries
Providing protection to persons and property
Obtains, evaluates, integrates, and recommends actions on information items to identify larger areas of noncompliance (e.g., major profession, occupation, industry, or wide geographic area).
May serve as a team leader and/or expert consultant in the information gathering function.
Conducts or participates in surveillance, armed escorts, dignitary protection, undercover operations, execution of search and arrest warrants, seizures, etc.
Protects the government's interest in enforcement activities.
Maintains good physical condition in order to conduct criminal investigations, surveillance, protective assignments, undercover assignments, etc.
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Old August 13, 2022, 02:58 PM   #5
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I am concerned about the "growth" potential. There is a long history of that, and what uses the expanded armed agents might be put to....

Cause, you know, if they've got them, they are going to use them, for...something
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Old August 13, 2022, 04:49 PM   #6
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1740 in my state, and yours. Here that equals almost 21/COUNTY.. We dont have but about 1/3 that many sheriff deputies.
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Old August 13, 2022, 05:18 PM   #7
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It's not uncommon in many countries for tax agents to be armed.
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Old August 13, 2022, 06:29 PM   #8
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I don't know,but I wonder if one day these agents might be used to forcibly violate the Constitution.

Treasury,IRS,BATF, all same umbrella.

Military can't turn on the Citizens, but as I understand it,posse comitatus would not apply to IRS/Treasury/BATF
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Old August 13, 2022, 07:57 PM   #9
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I seriously doubt that they will be adding 87,000 armed investigative agents to the existing staffing. Think about it. At present across all governmental levels (municipal, county, state , and federal) there are approximately 700,000 persons with arrest powers that are armed. I simply do not see the IRS adding that many gun toters.

I want to see the IRS shrunk down. The best way for that is to greatly simplify the tax code. Reduce the tax rates and eliminate the majority of the write offs. Less write offs, less need for audits.
All that is neccessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
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Old August 13, 2022, 09:05 PM   #10
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87.000 additional well armed federal agents

Personally, are we really that behind with collecting taxes? Are gun shops really that dangerous that unarmed investigators can’t audit books anymore?

If those questions are answered yes… country is really lost track of reality.

87,000 Federal agents would be helpful with CBP and BP. Turnover and morale are unreal (speak for CBP easily… BP, have a lot of friends working there and two cousins that got out because of it). Why not focus your efforts in keeping the country safe? Oh wait… we paid people for a wall, ordered them to stop, and then paid for them to remove the stuff to build said wall.

Hell, I’d take a few billion just to rebuild outdated land ports that are currently being “renovated,” but supposed to be rebuilt in 5 years. Where I’m located, we redid the upstairs, half of the lobby, and waiting on contractors to revaluate the other half to quote and finish… and we know we are getting a new facility in the bearish future. Or ones with actual mold problems, but can’t be touched because they are “historic” so we let people work there and take BS readings to say there isn’t any issue.

I have a long list that is agency specific, and some people might be surprised on a few of them… especially considering we are under DHS. But I’m sure BOP has plenty of similar complaints with there facilities… just ask Epstein (sorry for the joke to any BOP guys, but had to ). DEA, ICE, HSI, and all the other abbreviations likely have their own. But when staffing locally is terrible, and we can’t get people to be paid 2x to come in… let’s try to fix more serious problems than what those 87,000 are aimed at fixing.

But what do I know?

To add, I do agree… I think those numbers are off. That number is about double to what CBP, to include BP, have as sworn personnel. And last time I checked, CBP (not including BP, but OFO only) is the largest number of sworn Federal personnel.

Last edited by Screwball; August 13, 2022 at 09:12 PM.
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Old August 13, 2022, 09:37 PM   #11
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Conspiracy theories, especially when unsupported with credible documentation, are off-topic.
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
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