There's more to it than having a gun.....

[VaughnT]

Found this clip on another forum and thought I'd share it here. The soundtrack is great and you almost feel like you're watching an Mtv video.

Bottom line: you will more often than not have to engage in hand-to-hand before you can go to guns. If you are not prepared for it, don't have training in dynamic fight scenarios, you can get busted long before you can clear leather.


http://www.canadas-best.com/images/ISRPM_clipDSL.wmv

Be warned, this clip can be rather addicting. I've watched it about a dozen times throughout the day and get a kick out of it every single time.

[Double Naught Spy]

Let's see, sure enough, you can get busted before you ever get a chance to clear leather. Why, because bad guys often use surprise to their advantage.

As for needing hand to hand more often than guns, also sure enough. Not all situations will demand the use of a gun as they are non-lethal or non-serious bodily threat confrontations. There is no surprise there.

[VaughnT]

Thanks, 00. I posted this over at the 1911forum and got more negative responses that positive. Seems the overwhelming belief is, "Yea, but those guys are young and in shape." Or, "Why learn that when I have a gun on my hip." Scary thinking, indeed.

What I particularly liked about the clip is seeing how fast this stuff can go down. I doubt any of those Doubting Thomases elsewhere could even clear leather under such a fast assault.

[fastbolt]

Reminds me of the early days in the dojo, as well as the early DT days when there were more folks with military & self defense experience willing to mix it up on the mat.

Nowadays, that sort of training isn't commonly offered as L/E In-Service training because of the liability involved regarding the increased potential for injured employees and worker's comp claims. Besides, just like most cops aren't particularly interested in guns, most aren't interested in martial arts, either. DT training may only come around once a year, or every other year, and only for a few hours, at that.

I could go on about funny (but sad) tales involving cops that aren't eager to become involved in anything seriously "hands on" ... like the time a smaller statured person was facing an antagonist (wearing a fully padded suit) in a DT training situation, and instead of addressing the antagonist/attacker with the appropriate piece of issued safety equipment ... the person turned and fled the room. Hey, that might be something that's necessary in the real world ... sometime, anyway ... but it was weird for it to happen in a dedicated training situation.

It sometimes seems like some folks like to think that threatening situations will always develop along instantly recognizeable patterns, or won't be unexpected & surprising ... That a situation offering the potential threat for serious injury or death will always start out as a recognizeable "gun situation", or be instantly recognizeable by the presence of a deadly weapon, like a gun, or at least a weapon capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.

It's not surprising that many folks participating in a firearms forum may be primarily interested in firearms ... and not necessarily the martial arts, for example ... and may sometimes tend to think of their lawfully carried concealed handgun to be "the answer" to any potentially imminent & immediate threat of serious bodily injury or death that may unexpectedly confront them. It may not realistic, but neither is it surprising considering that many folks may not have the money, time, interest ... or even the physical ability, if injured or disabled in some manner ... to extend their knowledge and interest into self defense avenues which involve the martial arts.

The use of a Red Gun in a properly supervised training situation can often be used to good advantage in demonstrating how quickly someone can be overcome and disarmed, as well as "seriously injured or killed" ... and how sometimes the gun which ends up being used against you is the one that you brought to the unexpected & unanticipated fight in the first place ...

Situational awareness and avoidance are necessary skills, at the very least ... althouigh L/E don't always have the luxury of avoidance, obviously.

Just "having a gun" may not be the "answer" to most situations ... and may certainly encourage a false sense of security.

After spending the last 33 years involved in various martial arts, and having been a L/E firearms instructor & trainer for the last 15 years ... and having been insterested in shooting & guns for about 46 years, beginning when I was 5 ... I realize that there isn't any perfect answer to these sort of questions, and don't claim to be anybody's expert, let alone have any "answers" ...

But it pays to be open to new info.

Stay safe.

[Dwight55]

VaugnT, . . . your statement that there is more to it than having a gun is actually more than just correct. Folks gotta use their head before the gun.

I say that as a 59 year old male in much less than perfect health, with a minor heart condition, and not enough wind to hardly blow up a birthday balloon. I cannot use the few martial art skills I do posess, . . . much less be willing to go head to head with some youngster or worse some methadude.

One of the other guys on either this or the 1911 forum has a signature line that more or less says it all for us older guys, . . . and I can't quote it, . . . but it goes something to the effect that old age, treachery, and a .45 make up for speed, youth, and agility.

Though I have never had a "heart attack", I know enough about one that I can fake one real good, . . . it is one scenario I have personally developed that just may buy me a few precious seconds in which to find some low cover and get my piece. If not, . . . I can just continue with the "attack" hoping they lose interest in the old grey haired geezer that is kicking the bucket.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Quartus]

It sometimes seems like some folks like to think that threatening situations will always develop along instantly recognizeable patterns, or won't be unexpected & surprising

Yep. Lots of folks are absolutely certain of things they actually know nothing about. I think it's worse than not knowing what you don't know.

On the subject of guns, you hear it here all the time. Trying to convince one of these folks that relying on the <fill in uber-macho caliber of choice> to be a guaranteed one shot stop could be the death of them is wasted breath. Er, typing.

<shrug> All you can to is try, but you can't force people to think.


Good reminder, Vaughn.

[VaughnT]

Just watched it again.

[FrankDrebin]

Though I have never had a "heart attack", I know enough about one that I can fake one real good, . . . it is one scenario I have personally developed that just may buy me a few precious seconds in which to find some low cover and get my piece. If not, . . . I can just continue with the "attack" hoping they lose interest in the old grey haired geezer that is kicking the bucket.

What if they feel sorry for you and put one through your head so you don't have to suffer so much?

[Dwight55]

In Viet Nam we had a phrase, . . . Sin Loi, . . . which was a very heart felt way of expressing genuine regret at loss, . . . but it also accepted the loss. That sums up the way I feel about it.

In my health, . . . I have a chance faking it, . . . not much chance any other way: if in fact the bg's get the "drop" on me so to speak.

Just have to trust the Lord, . . . know what is going on around me, . . . and do the best one can.

Bg's expect a fight, expect resistance, expect gun play and other combat. "Generally" they aren't smart enough to get out of their own shadow, . . . and a little scolarly deceipt may just be enough to turn the tide.

With my .45 in the shoulder holster and my hand holding my chest while I am turning blue from holding my breath,etc, etc, . . . if they take their eyes off the dying old geezer, coughing and gasping on the floor . . . who knows what may happen?

May God bless,
Dwight

[Quartus]

Hmmmm. Did somebody say something about old age and treachery?

[fastbolt]

Dwight55,
If you don't mind my saying so, it appears that you might well be an example of the general topic matter originally posted by VaughnT when he titled the thread topic ... There's more to it than having a gun.....

You may not have the physical ability to become engaged in strenuous physical exertions, granted ... but you sound as though you're bringing potentially more important and critical assests to a potential threatening situation.

You've already determined that you DO desire to survive ... you've seemingly mentally prepared yourself, taking into account your particular physical limitations ... you seem as though you have some conflict (Nam) experience upon which to draw ... and you seem as though you have some spiritual support & framework upon which to draw strength of character and action. Oh yeah, you also have a gun.

I remember having a fellow attend one of our CCW classes ... and having to use a motorized chair to perform the qualification range portion of the class. He did fine. He seemed to be the person best aware of any limitations his physical condition might present, and he certainly seemed prepared to deal with them.

Now ... tell me that his personal dedication and desire to survive a threatening, potential deadly force encounter isn't as strong ... or even stronger ... than a younger person who enjoys the luxury of near-perfect ... and perhaps unappreciated ... physical condition and health.

I salute you, sir ... and everyone else like him & you.

[Darkangel]

Great video....any LEO that doesn't learn this stuff is a fool. I still remember that video of the Texas LEO who was over powered by three Illegals and killed with his own gun. He was much bigger then all three of them put together but he still died.
I have a friend thats 3 years older then me with a heart condition , obesity....well you name it. When he was assaulted by three brothers from the hood, outside a eating establishment, he played the whining liberal. "please don't hurt me, here's my money." as he pulled his Glock 21 out. The three punks were quite suprised and did everything the nice man with the big .45 asked them to do.

There is a time to fight and a time not to fight. People have a gun on you then give them your money. Never go with them anywhere, never get into their car. If they force the issue then fight. Be aware of your surroundings.

[Dwight55]

Fastbolt, . . . thank you for the generous words.

Yes, . . . being prepared is what it is all about: fisticuffs, knife, martial arts, running like a rabbit, playing dead, shooting your way out; it makes no difference which route (and there of course are others) one takes, so long as a plan is there.

The most precious training I ever received was in the Boy Scouts: "Be Prepared" is the motto. Spreading it out a bit, we learn to do many things.

Look ahead at what can happen: how do you prepare for that scenario?

Prepare for each scenario differently: be prepared to change the game plan.

Above all: be aware of your situation, circumstances, and surroundings. They alone may make the difference between survival and defeat.

I would almost like to see a "Scenario of the week" page on this forum where folks could exchange ideas, opinions, and tactics. The more we know, the better prepared we can become.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Tamara]

Gotta thank you for this link.

Just had to post on another board's "Tactics" section where some poster opined that he'd just shoot anybody that challenged him to a knuckle joust.

Apparently on his planet they still throw down gauntlets at ten yards. On mine, the first indication that you're in a fight is often when you notice that the pavement is approaching your face at a high rate of speed.

"I don't know why we even practice shooting while standing up..." -Winner of two gunfights quoted on LaserGrip promo DVD...

[Bob F.]

Excellent link!!! Looks like "jailhouse rock"!

Stay safe.
Bob

[Danindetroit]

In junior high there was a game where a person snuck up behind you & grabbed your Levi's under the hem and pulled and lifted. You can guess the result. Many people still wonder why I don't feel comfortale in checkout lines, or without my back to a wall standing or sitting. I also learned the hard way about having long hair(mullet).

[John Ringo]

Cool video.

[Tripplethreat]

A good demonstration of why at least some unarmed skills need to be part of your arsenal.It usually happens close and fast.

[Derius_T]

"I don't know why we even practice shooting while standing up..."



God thats beautiful.......

[Cazach]

Yeah I like the responses on the other forum about this topic. They basically all concluded that they had a magical death ray on their hip and because of their "spider sensecoughsituational awareness" would always have time to draw and engage anyone.

Good stuff Vaughn. Always good to have lots of tools in the toolbox.