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Old January 22, 2023, 08:38 PM   #1
Jim567
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Concealed carry class for women

My wife and daughter decided they wanted their concealed weapons permit.
They took a class today that was advertised for women.

They came back after getting their certificate convinced that a concealed weapons permit or even owning a pistol was too dangerous.

What they got from the class was that they would be sued into oblivion should they ever use their pistol for just about any reason.

Obviously, the liability needs to be discussed . This instructor took it to an entirely different level.

They both now do not want to proceed with the process.

Both have been around firearms and my daughter is a shooter.

Last edited by Jim567; January 22, 2023 at 09:01 PM.
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Old January 22, 2023, 10:02 PM   #2
TunnelRat
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Concealed carry class for women

I’m not entirely sure what to say. You could talk with the instructor about the class, keep it civil, and maybe figure out how to address it with your wife and daughter based on what you learn from the instructor. At the end of the day though the person who is going to carry needs to make that choice. If they are convinced they shouldn’t carry a firearm and don’t want to, then maybe they shouldn’t, at least for now.
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Old January 22, 2023, 10:47 PM   #3
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Maybe the instructor went overboard or maybe not. Your wife and daughter may have picked up on the info to a higher degree than the instructor intended. Or not.

I recall the many, many internal reckonings I had with myself after I took my CC class years ago, the legal aspect being one of them. (Actually killing another person was another.)

It's the old cost/risk/benefit analysis we deal with in other areas of our lives. Good for them.

Carrying a firearm for self defense is a BIG deal and shouldn't be taken lightly.

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Old January 22, 2023, 11:38 PM   #4
Schlitz 45
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Apparently some classes are run by carry insurance salesmen that use scare tactics to make sales that’s more important to them than any actual training. Damn shame
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Old January 23, 2023, 04:06 PM   #5
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Apparently some classes are run by carry insurance salesmen that use scare tactics to make sales that’s more important to them than any actual training. Damn shame“

I am totally convinced this is exactly what happened.

There was more emphasis on getting sued than any other aspect of the process.

I’m not downplaying the ramifications of being sued for defending yourself.

I remain, however, very upset.

It seems that’s all he talked about.
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Old January 23, 2023, 04:10 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim567
I remain, however, very upset.
I can understand that and I can understand wanting to express being upset to someone else and it's good to have a place to turn to. At the same time, no one here can solve this for you. This is a conversation for you and your wife and daughter. If you want help in framing that discussion it's possible those here can help with that.
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Old January 23, 2023, 04:18 PM   #7
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Correct tunnel rat.
I’m blowing off steam mostly here.
However, also, I’m posting for other folks who might find themselves in the situation and can prepare themselves prior.
Wish I had known!!!
If I had known, I could’ve prepared them before hand,instead now I’m forced into damage control.
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Old January 23, 2023, 05:11 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Jim567
If I had known, I could’ve prepared them before hand,instead now I’m forced into damage control.
It's never fun being on the defensive. Were I you, I would try to explain why you wanted them to take the course and what you were hoping they would get out of it. Explain your side while explaining that you respect it's a personal decision. Good luck.
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Old January 23, 2023, 09:02 PM   #9
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At any give point in time, we only have two choices.

Quote:
Apparently some classes are run by carry insurance salesmen that use scare tactics to make sales that’s more important to them than any actual training. Damn shame
To a certain degree, this might be the case but "Legal" information and accountability by a permt holder, "has" to be presented. ....

At any give point in time, we only have two choices. We do our best and move on two the next two choices. Some of the ladies in my family, fully understand this and have chosen to carry and pray they never have to use it. I am willing to pay whatever it takes to keep my family safe. The other day wife complained about her purse getting too heavy. .....

Be Safe !!!
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Old January 23, 2023, 11:40 PM   #10
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Well, I’m sure I won’t help much, but one must remember the order of decision making here.

The first decision is probably, “can I dedicate myself to carry an appropriate gun often enough that it will be at hand when I need it?”

Then, “Can I react prudently, quickly and execute the action of my decisions?”

Third, “if alive after some encounter, do I want to protect my wealth and freedom enough to pay the high price of extremely rare case ccw insurance?”

Forth, “if not alive, is my family financially prepared to face life without me?”

Sounds to me like they are thinking about #3 when they should be focused on 1 and 2. I find most folks really cannot handle 1 and 2 well enough to worry about 3.
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Old January 24, 2023, 07:44 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
Maybe the instructor went overboard or maybe not. Your wife and daughter may have picked up on the info to a higher degree than the instructor intended. Or not.

I recall the many, many internal reckonings I had with myself after I took my CC class years ago, the legal aspect being one of them. (Actually killing another person was another.)

It's the old cost/risk/benefit analysis we deal with in other areas of our lives. Good for them.

Carrying a firearm for self defense is a BIG deal and shouldn't be taken lightly.

_______________
*I'd give right arm to be ambidextrous*
Exactly this. For myself, it was a question of the old adage, "better to be tried by twelve...."

I suppose some people will prefer to die at the hands of a killer than kill first. I've encountered a lot of people who believe exactly that. Not something I'll ever understand.

It's one thing to explain the risks. Quite another to terrorize someone over the aftermath of a bad event.

--Wag--
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Old January 24, 2023, 08:29 AM   #12
Jim567
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“It's one thing to explain the risks. Quite another to terrorize someone over the aftermath of a bad event.“

From speaking to my wife and daughter this is exactly what he did.

He also terrorized them with bizarre stories.

One was about a man at the range, who had a hot case go down the front of his shirt.
His hand, with the pistol in it, followed the path of the brass casing up to his shirt where he pulled the trigger again , shot himself in the head and died.

Ugh!

That’s like a driving instructor warning new drivers they could be abducted by aliens on a remote desert Road.

On the other hand, that justified, my wife and daughter’s choice for revolvers. Lol!

Warning about the surprise of hot casings is fine.
This instructors style is absolutely not.
Imagine if all new shooters were subjected to this type of instruction.
Our sport would pass on into oblivion.

Last edited by Jim567; January 24, 2023 at 09:00 AM.
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Old January 24, 2023, 12:15 PM   #13
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Quote:
One was about a man at the range, who had a hot case go down the front of his shirt. His hand, with the pistol in it, followed the path of the brass casing up to his shirt where he pulled the trigger again , shot himself in the head and died.
This instructor definitely has a super-ego problem. As an instructor, I feel sorry that your wife and daughter were subjected to this. By the way, why was this class designated as a Women's class? Most of our classes were mixed and encouraged the women to openly participate. Dedicated women's class were the exception and associated with other ongoing women's programs. .....

Wishing you and yours well and;
Be Safe !!!
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Old January 24, 2023, 01:15 PM   #14
Jim567
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“This instructor definitely has a super-ego problem. As an instructor, I feel sorry that your wife and daughter were subjected to this. By the way, why was this class designated as a Women's class? Most of our classes were mixed and encouraged “


I was hoping they would not end up in a class with a superego. I believe that’s exactly what happened..
He spent a lot of time bragging about his time with special weapons and tactics.

I’m not sure what was so special about the class that it was for women only.
It was advertised that way.

There was no help or instruction on women specific issues, such as purse carry etc.

Last edited by Jim567; January 24, 2023 at 05:42 PM.
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Old January 24, 2023, 11:22 PM   #15
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Did the instructor explain there is insurance to help with costs if needed? I ask shoot or don't shoot scenarios no graphic stories of death and mayhem. Try explaining the concept of the conduct of the reasonable man. The legal has to be explained but balanced with common sense.
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Old January 24, 2023, 11:32 PM   #16
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People have to make their own choices. Legal liability and a resulting lawsuit following deadly force is a foreboding possibility. If someone has a hang up about that in their mind they shouldn't carry.
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Old January 25, 2023, 07:16 AM   #17
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Rtpzwms

As stated above, the whole class was horror stories and pushing insurance.
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Old January 25, 2023, 02:14 PM   #18
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Chapter-1

Quote:
My wife and daughter decided they wanted their concealed weapons permit.
There was a reason and it's still there. I'll bet it was and a good reason. Probably the same reason, I got my permit. These reasons have not deminished and in fact, have multiplied. I pray to God that I will never have to use it. I'd rather take my chances with the judge than have to pay the higher price. Your story is not complete, just had a bad experience .....

Be Safe !!!
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Old January 25, 2023, 09:09 PM   #19
Jim567
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They are already cooling down a little bit from the experience.
I’ve already addressed it with them a bit and will do more.
My daughter absolutely loves to shoot with me.
She’s 110 pounds and it’s so much fun to watch her knock the steel down with my 1911 government.
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Old January 25, 2023, 09:52 PM   #20
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Well, your Wife and Daughter are old enough and probably smart enough to make their own decisions based on what they have gathered from many sources. If they do not want to carry a gun, maybe they shouldnt. Poking, prodding and convincing should probably not be part of the process that brings someone to the decision to carry. This is not a contest between you and this "instructor". If it were me, I would let it be.
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Old January 25, 2023, 10:52 PM   #21
Jim567
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FireForged

What contest?

I’m just trying to have them understand that class was not a good class.

It was over top.

I would love to know what the other ladies in the class thought.

Especially those who had no firearm experience from other sources.
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Old January 26, 2023, 02:28 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim567 View Post
My wife and daughter decided they wanted their concealed weapons permit.
They took a class today that was advertised for women.

They came back after getting their certificate convinced that a concealed weapons permit or even owning a pistol was too dangerous.

What they got from the class was that they would be sued into oblivion should they ever use their pistol for just about any reason.

Obviously, the liability needs to be discussed . This instructor took it to an entirely different level.

They both now do not want to proceed with the process.

Both have been around firearms and my daughter is a shooter.
Dumb instructor, they are out there.
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Old January 26, 2023, 02:22 PM   #23
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I'm going to go against the grain here--most people taking CCW are probably self-defense concerned people who are likely--but not always--not going to be serious gun enthusiasts like those of you reading this. CCW requirements vary from state to state--some you just fill out a piece of paper and your done--others require an intensive multi-day course filled with written and practical content.

My CCW class was taught by police department officers--so they naturally leaned heavily into legal ramifications. I'm glad they did; in my experience the majority of "casual self defense carriers" honestly don't have a clue what kind of legal trouble they can easily get into.

Incidentally, my class was a big one--some 50 or so people as I recall. Everyone had either a 22lr or 9mm because they thought that would be the easiest way to pass the shooting qualification test. I brought along my 45 XD. Reading the comment above about the hot brass going down the shirt brought back memories of my test--a spent hot case from my XD went down the front of my shirt--and into the front of my gym shorts. I secured and put the gun down on the shooting table and started a vigorous dance to retrieve the case. For the rest of the class the officers present always cracked a smile or chuckled whenever passing by me--I made a big impression I guess.
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Old January 26, 2023, 09:37 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stagpanther View Post
I'm going to go against the grain here--most people taking CCW are probably self-defense concerned people who are likely--but not always--not going to be serious gun enthusiasts like those of you reading this. CCW requirements vary from state to state--some you just fill out a piece of paper and your done--others require an intensive multi-day course filled with written and practical content.

My CCW class was taught by police department officers--so they naturally leaned heavily into legal ramifications. I'm glad they did; in my experience the majority of "casual self defense carriers" honestly don't have a clue what kind of legal trouble they can easily get into.

Incidentally, my class was a big one--some 50 or so people as I recall. Everyone had either a 22lr or 9mm because they thought that would be the easiest way to pass the shooting qualification test. I brought along my 45 XD. Reading the comment above about the hot brass going down the shirt brought back memories of my test--a spent hot case from my XD went down the front of my shirt--and into the front of my gym shorts. I secured and put the gun down on the shooting table and started a vigorous dance to retrieve the case. For the rest of the class the officers present always cracked a smile or chuckled whenever passing by me--I made a big impression I guess.
I instruct the CCW class and speak with people who have taken the course weekly. During our conversation, they will often mention something incorrectly taught during their course; at that point, I will ask them who told them that. Nine times out of ten, it was a retired LE officer. My conclusion is that many LE instructors are clueless.
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Old January 27, 2023, 11:08 AM   #25
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My conclusion is that many LE instructors are clueless
Could be.
Me personally, given the inner-city mix of people in the class in an area that is widely known for gang violence and killings--I thought they did an excellent job.
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