Carry vs. Practice Ammo

[Slimjim9]

"...practice with regular .38 ammo and carry .38 +p..." That's like saying use Regular gas for qualifying and High Octane for race day. Practice with what you intend using.

Guess I stepped on the fire ant hill this time, eh?

For the record, I wasn't suggesting to never practice with the carry loads, but ending the session with a couple wheels of it is enough for me.
Absolutely I agree that "the gunfight" isn't the place to be trying new ammo.

[DeadEyeJack]

I saw a lot of post pertaining to new shooters, which is fine seeing as many new shooters have probably read this and were wondering something along the same lines. I would however like to clarify that I've been shooting for over 15 years and this has been my philosophy right from the beginning. The main reason I decided to post this was, after seeing so many people agree on the contrary, to make sure I wasn't making some horrible mistake that might have come around to bite me in the backside somewhere down the line.

[Lee6113]

So how about this:

Is there any difference training with normal 9mm fmj vs 9mm hollow point? Because I don't want to spend that much money on hollow points.

[AK103K]

If the weights and velocities are similar, things should be very close. Any difference would be negligible.

I load 124 grain FMJs at around 1050-1100fps. I carry 127 grain Ranger T's that run a little over 1200fps. I see little difference between them when I shoot them.

[Bake]

Is there any difference training with normal 9mm fmj vs 9mm hollow point? Because I don't want to spend that much money on hollow points.

If the POA/POI, and felt recoil seam to be the same, I don't believe there will be a problem and it should be fine. Just be sure that both the full metal jacket and the hollowpoint will cycle your pistol 100%.

[FireForged]

oh for pete's sake people.. you guys are really over thinking this issue.

[hartcreek]

Even this has turned into a peeing contest. The Operative words are NEW SHOOTER.

A new shooter needs to develop their skillset and .38s in a .357 will help them do that hopefully without developing bad habits. Then they can proceed to practice with full house ammo and carry with what ever they choose.

[Cheapshooter]

At the normal SD distance of 10 yards that I practice at most:
In my 380 LCP I don't notice point of impact, or recoil differences in range ammo and my carry ammo.
In my 9MM Kahr CM9 I don't notice any difference in point of impact, or recoil between standard pressure range ammo, and tye +P ammo I carry
In my 40 S&W caliber Springfield XD40 Subcompact I also notice no differences in WWB range ammo, and tge Speer Gold Dot I carry when this gun is my choice.
The same can be said for38 Spcl. And 38Spcl +P in my 38 LCR.
I do see a significant difference in price per round in all of them!
I can see maybe there would be some amount of diference In the 357 Magnum LCR, but I'm not sure it would be that significant.

[hatchettjack]

I start my session with wwb 180 gr Fmj then always finish with a couple of my carry loads gold dot hp 180 poi is the same for both in my SR40

[TimSr]

oh for pete's sake people.. you guys are really over thinking this issue.

Best summation of this entire thread!

[Stevie-Ray]

I don't "punch paper" with my carry guns, except to satisfy myself that I am current with them. Sometimes that's one magazine, the one I'm carrying at the time. I also take carry ammo with me though, as sometimes it's been a while, and one mag won't do it. It CAN take two or three or even up to a box before I'm satisfied, but it's always the same ammo I carry. When I feel like punching paper for fun, I reload my own, and use my range guns. And take several .22s.

[Limnophile]

I load my range/training ammo to duplicate my carry ammo.

This makes the most sense to me. If you don't reload, buy an affordable FMJ round that has equivalent exterior ballistics to your carry JHP round. For example, if you carry Federal Premium 147-gr Hydr-Shok JHP, the Federal American Eagle 147-gr FMJ Flat Point has the identical muzzle velocity and the identical trajectory out to at least 100 yd. Thus, during practice your recoil and POIs will be identical as what you would see with your carry ammo in a real situation.

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Stevie-Ray:

I don't "punch paper" with my carry guns, except to satisfy myself that I am current with them. Sometimes that's one magazine, the one I'm carrying at the time. I also take carry ammo with me though, as sometimes it's been a while, and one mag won't do it. It CAN take two or three or even up to a box before I'm satisfied, but it's always the same ammo I carry. When I feel like punching paper for fun, I reload my own, and use my range guns.

If your "range guns" are the same as the gun you carry and you use the same holster, that strategy should suffice....

....as long as you "feel like punching paper for fun" with a frequency sufficient to keep up your skills, and you do it in a manner that would prove helpful for SD.

I should hope the phrase "the one I'm carrying at the time" does not indicate that your carry pieces are not very similar to one another, at least in terms of function and grip.

[Stevie-Ray]

Originally Posted by OldMarksman

If your "range guns" are the same as the gun you carry and you use the same holster, that strategy should suffice....

....as long as you "feel like punching paper for fun" with a frequency sufficient to keep up your skills, and you do it in a manner that would prove helpful for SD..

Punching paper for fun has little to do with my carry guns, it is just that-fun, and I don't consider it practice for SD. My range guns run the gamut of platforms and generally have no resemblance to my primary carries, which are a select few.

Originally Posted by OldMarksman

I should hope the phrase "the one I'm carrying at the time" does not indicate that your carry pieces are not very similar to one another, at least in terms of function and grip.

"The one I'm carrying at the time" denotes the magazine, not the weapon, indicating my ammo is rotated with every range trip. I have only 4 pieces that I carry, for many years, 2 of which are on me 95% of the time.

[skizzums]

nobody shoots for "fun" anymore?

I always run mags of my carry ammo, I am well practiced with it, but I also shoot light loads for fun.

[AK103K]

nobody shoots for "fun" anymore?

Sure, but having one load for both keeps things simple.

[skizzums]

So you don't have some heavy loads for hitting steel at 50 yards, some loads that are for pure accuracy(not always the best for SD ballistics), some super light loads just to shoot a .38 that's as quiet as a .22 and so on and so forth. And how do you ever find out what's the most accurate load and the best for different situations w/o trying all kinds of wild loads? I would get bored to death running nothing but 5 thousand rounds of Hornady 125's every year. What about a critter load......none of those? What about cheap lead cast loads that cost less than 5c a piece?

Sorry, I take my self defense seriously, but I also take the fun of the sport seriously too. My most accurate load to knock out clay pigeons from 25yds is 147gr TC loaded with a middle high dose of hs6.....that is not the best load for 15yd and under SD situations. Have some fun and put some sport into your shooting, you guys must shoot indoor only or something not to load the best, lightest pumpkin exploders just for giggles.

After that rant, I will say though, my little pt111 doesn't get the same amount of fun loading as say a full size cz or my revolvers, but they are all in a self protection role of some type.

It took my wife about 500 rounds of 158gr .38 WC's with the lowest charge of hp38 before I could get her to accurately shoot Hornady factory loads, now after shooting some pretty hot .38s, I have her comfortable with some lighter .357mag loads. Light loads make great training tools for new shooters as well.

Having one load to do everything doesn't make things simple, it makes it so your shooting inappropriate loads for different things you'd trying to do.

These are just my opinions, I doubt it will change any minds on the subject. As long as your shooting a lot and enjoying yourself, that's what matters

[Mauser69]

Interesting conversations, but I am one of those who feel much of this is being way overblown.

If the only reason you shoot is to stay proficient with a defensive weapon, then by all means consider shooting only what you carry.

But I shoot a lot of different guns, some for defense, some for hunting, some for target, and most just for the fun of it. I have small guns and big guns, rimfires and magnums, wheel guns and semi-autos, etc. etc. etc. I have enough experience switching for different guns and reasons that I am not concerned about brain failure to function just because I am shooting something different than what I sent down range yesterday. And because of that, I would say that very little of what I practice with is what I carry for SD. I personally feel that in most cases, shooting MORE is way more valuable to proficiency than shooting SAME. Heck, dry fire practice is nothing like shooting your carry ammo, but it probably has more value for many people!

[AK103K]

Sorry, I take my self defense seriously, but I also take the fun of the sport seriously too.

I do too. I didnt say I dont load for specific things, I do in some cases, but anymore, Ive narrowed things down to as few as possible, as it just keeps things simple, and in the long run, at least for me, is more cost effective.

[g.willikers]

Lighter recoiling practice ammo is ok.
During an actual confrontation, it's doubtful that the increased recoil from more powerful ammo would be noticed.
That happens mostly when the shooter is focused on the gun instead of the target.
Try it for yourselves.
Imagine the target is some horrible beast about to devour you and just shoot.
Don't think, just shoot.
Do it first with a light load and then with a stronger one.
Did you even notice the recoil, what ever ammo you were using?
If your imagining is weak, try it with a target of a drooling T-Rex, a vicious, hungry zombie or something.

[OldMarksman]

There is some thought that a very critical miss by a Secret Service agent defending Blair House during an attack on November 1 1950 may have resulted from the Secret Service policy of practicing with low power wadcutter reloads that had a point of impact that differed from that of the service loads in their Detective Special revolvers.

In any event, it is reported that agents now practice with service ammunition as a result of analyses of the incident.

[g.willikers]

Kind of wonder if the folks conducting those studies are just numbers guys, without experience with what they are collecting data.

[OldMarksman]

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_bu...trajectory.htm

[Doc Holliday 1950]

I also go to the range for different reasons. Somebody said before me that they go to enjoy shooting for the shear enjoyment of it and also to practice for SD.
Okay with me. I warm up with the 38's then go to what ever I'm going to carry.
Also depends on which 357 I'm carrying. I shoot different loads in my LCR than
in my GP100. Don't ever want to shoot a hot load 357 in my LCR. But in my GP
I can shoot that all day, no sweat.
Doc

[TimSr]

There is some thought that a very critical miss by a Secret Service agent defending Blair House during an attack on November 1 1950 may have resulted from the Secret Service policy of practicing with low power wadcutter reloads that had a point of impact that differed from that of the service loads in their Detective Special revolvers.

In any event, it is reported that agents now practice with service ammunition as a result of analyses of the incident.

It's a shame that 65 years later, they still never figured out that they could have eliminated problem buy using low cost practice ammo that had similar velocity to service ammo.