Neighbor hood common area trashing

[geetarman]

I have a situation here that may or may not fit this thread or even the forum.

I am an active shooter of rifle and handguns and shoot several times a week.

There is a situation in our neighborhood that is getting worse and I am not sure if there is a better way to handle it.

My house is on a corner with full view of the community tennis court.

Lately, groups of young people choose to congregate there and generally trash the place. This occurs in the evening when the tennis court is lighted.
In the morning we are finding used condoms and beer cans as well as fast food drink cups and wrappers. I know some of these young people live in the neighborhood and I am tempted to gather up the junk and put it in their yard.

Given the short fuses and intolerance of some of the youth today, I do not want to get into a confrontation. I know from experience that after they see who I am, payback comes at 0-dark30.

Without a witness or active video, one can only offer an opinion on who did it and that will not hold up in court.

I have called the police four times about the situation and they always come out but the problem still exists. My truck was broken in (again) and I suspect the people in that group have seen me reloading in my garage and thought there might be a gun in the truck.

I have a weapon within easy reach on each level of my house as well as in the garage and have a large safe to store the other weapons.

I am 68 so there is no question of my confronting these people physically.

I choose not to carry on a regular basis. That is a personal choice on my part and I may need to rethink that. I did carry yesterday. My wife and I were headed to church and I saw someone sitting on a bench at the tennis court who did not seem to belong there. The next time I saw him, he was lying on the ground wrapped up in an old blanket so we called the police to check him out.

I carried because I did not want to come home and finding someone emptying the house.

My question to you is what would YOU do that I am not doing?


My instinct tells me to let the police do their job.

Is there anything else I should be doing?

I apologize for the length.

Geetarman

[rickyrick]

I had a similar issue but in my case it was a bunch of empty lots..... crime was increasing as well as drunks and trespassing, I even had my home broken into while out of town. I bought all of the lots at a reasonable price, fenced it all.....and increased my dog population to the size of a small platoon.

But I am convinced that the dogs are the numero uno deterant to unsavory characters.

[teumessian_fox]

Make an appeal before your city's town council and explain the problem. Take photographs of the debris. Ask them to come up with a solution, then lead them in the direction you want them to go.

Any form of revenge will blow up in your face (as in dumping trash in their yards). And today's wild kids answer to nobody, not even, especially not even, their parents. Heck, I'd be surprised if most of them even knew who their parents are.

[45guy]

My thoughts:
Keep a note book and log every thing you see, full description, time and date. A video camera, with time/date recorder, over looking the area would be very good, be certain to hide it as much as passable. Enlist the neighbors as much as possible and report every thing to police regularly. Have others do the same, you want numbers and a unified front.
Secure your house and property, be armed at all times, they may try to retaliate.
Goggle security and spy cameras, they are cheaper than you may think.

[ISC]

I concur on the video taping. It might be time to get involoved or create a nieghborhood watch organization.

An alternative might be to just start hanging out at the tennis courts with your nieghbors on a rotating basis. you know, talk to them loudly about stuff that kids hate like complain about ailments and the results of your friend's colon cleansing. Explain to them the benefits of eating vegetables and dangers of premarital sex. Bring along a photo album and show pictures of your vacation to Greece in 1978. That sort of thing.

And carry CCW while you're doing it just in case....

Your goal isn't to make it the worst possssible place to hang out, just to make it worse than some other place.

[Bud Helms]

Looks like a good one for Tactics & Training.

Moving.

[rjrivero]

Battery powered cameras are probably your best bet. If you can get them mounted on the property and get some footage, you'll be in a better position to get things done.

Game Cameras are a good alternative. Ones with date and time stamps are perfect. Infra Red Flash as opposed to a visable flash would be my choice for this kind of work. If you can hide them at the park and keep them out of easy reach, that's probably the cheapest alternative.

[Dre_sa]

I'd set up a video camera to catch them all in the act, get actual evidence of specific people. use a still camera to gather after the fact evidence.

first step would be show it all to the parents. then your community's head honcho.

If anything happens to your personal property, press charges immediately, make an example of them.

aside from that, have you ever seen the movie gran torino? while brandishing is not a good idea, adopting a grumpy old man attitude may keep them away...

[booker_t]

Some interesting comments here, and a difficult situation.

1) I wouldn't recommend starting a thread with the words, "I am an active shooter.." I know what you mean, but still, just sounds odd.

2) If the offending individuals are youth, i.e. minors under the age of 18, then you would be wise not to draw on them unless they are in your house, AND engaged in theft or threatening you. Even if they are breaking into your truck or garage, I would be very wary of drawing on them, for fear of lawsuits from the parents for trauma, anxiety, other fabricated poo.

3) Check your local statues about recording audio and/or video. Chances are even if you can record video, you would have to put up signs in plain sight indicating that video surveillance is in progress.

3b) An alternative here would be to put up a dummy camera and above-mentioned signs, might be sufficient deterrant so they go elsewhere.

4) Are these courts public space, or are they owned by your housing association, or some other entity? Don't record until you are 100% sure it's legal to do so. If minors are having sex and you record them, even if they are tresspassing on private property, this might turn into 15-20 years rent-free over some trash.

4b) If it's community space, and they live in the neighborhood, then they have the same right to be there as anyone else. If it's lighted at night, then there's no implied "closed dusk to dawn" like there are at public parks. I'm not defending their actions.

5) Work through your housing association or with the neighboring adults to get a petition for the police to enforce the area, perhaps have them roll through a couple times a night.

6) Work anonymously however possible. Don't go out there and brandish a weapon, or even be there. Don't stalk them and take photos. Don't attract any attention, don't even snoop around. All of it will bring negative attention to you, your car, house, etc. Before you do anything, think risk management. Changes should be made by the community or entity in charge of the courts, investigations and enforcement should be done by the police. Going about it otherwise undermines the authority of those various organizations and they will be less likely to assist.

7) Watch your 6.

[Skans]

There's no easy solution to this. If you can move, I'd say move. If the tennis courts are owned/operated by the city/county, then petition them to install video cameras. You'll find that skateboarders like to hang out at tennis courts because the surface is smooth and they skateboard on it. Petition the city to keep the gates of the tennis court locked unless being used.

All of this stuff costs money. City/county staff and elected officials will either ignore you or offer 1001 reason why they can't do anything.

If this is a neighborhood tennis court being maintained with assessments, then you probably can get the neighborhood association to do something about this.

The worst thing you can have happen to your home/neighborhood, IMHO, is have the county/city construct any facility, even sidewalks anywhere near your property. The only reason they do this is because they have too much money in their coffers and if they don't spend it they can't justify taxing you the same amount next year. If you move, move somewhere where the lot sizes are a minimum of 5 acres and where all of the folks living there hate the government and won't let any developer build anything on less than 5 acres. We've got an area (not high-priced either) near where I live where a wealthy developer who wanted to develop a large tract into 2.5 acre lots got his ass handed to him by the town council and the local citizens. Now, that's my kind of town!

FWIW, a gun will not solve your problem and I don't see any situation where using a gun is going to be necessary. These are just a bunch of obnoxious kids who probably have moms and no-to-part-time dads who live like pigs.

[old bear]

Sir, have you attempted to speak “neighbor to neighbor” with the kids’ parents? I would start there, if that has no effect try the Homeowners association if you have one, as a last resort then call the local police dept.

[rickyrick]

Is there a concession stand, convenience store, or other form of refreshment near-by????

If there is, see if the owner will offer free or discounted refreshments to police officers...

Thats the way I see people getting officers driving by more often.

No disrespect to Police officers, many places use this method to entice random patrols.

Come to think about it, I have asked for patrols in the past, they should do it for a couple of days at least...unless they are real busy all the time

Tricky situation

[animal]

If there are good neighbors around … get to know them and make friends and allies. If you have 20 different people calling the cops every time someone sees something … The cops might get tired of listening to the gripes and decide to put your problem higher on their priority list … squeaky wheel gets the grease. Also, the bad guys are less likely to single out the people calling the cops and you are more likely to have a neighbor around that’ll help you out if you get into a situation.
There’s the "Neghborhood Watch" program, but I’m not a big fan for several reasons. Low profile organization through "networking" can be much more effective, imo.

No good neighbors left and not able to "clean house" by yourself ? … It might be time to list the house with a good real estate agent.

[Van55]

Personally, I don't think the situation belongs on a forum dedicated to firearms. It just doesn't lend itself to any kind of positive resolution by resort to weaponry, particularly as there's no referenced to any kind of threatening behavior by the "kids" who are frequenting the tennis court area.

There's strength in numbers, and the solution to the problem lies with the owner(s) of the property on which the tennis courts sit. Find out who owns the property. See if they will post hours during which the area is open to the "public" and a notice that there is "NO TRESPASSING" during non-operating hours. See if they will set up a video surveillance situation in the event there is after-hours trespassing. Enlist your your neighbors to keep an eye on the property and notify the police if the no treaspasing signs are violated.

Don't even think about being the sole vigilante in the neighborhood or brandishing a firearm in an effort to "solve" the problem.

[g.willikers]

Try this, it's worked for us:
Before assuming that all the kids are trashing the tennis courts, see if some of them can be embarrassed into cleaning it up themselves.
One evening, when the kids are there, before it gets too late and dark, walk through the place, with a trash bag, pick up the stuff and put it in the trash cans.
Don't give them hell or anything; you'll sound like their parents and we all know where that leads.
You just might be pleasantly surprised.
Kids are naturally irresponsible and sloppy.
Mom has probably been picking up after them their whole lives.
If the kids aren't being aggressive, what's the worst that can happen from this.
You cleaned up the place.
No harm.

If they are really bad kids, and turn out to be nastier than expected, then you'll know exactly what you are dealing with.
Then just be attentive to your own property and ignore the rest.
Yes, it's tough to do, but easier than getting into a confrontation and having to deal with the police, lawyers and parents, especially over what's happening not on your own property.
If you haven't already, install a motion detecting, very bright light for the driveway.
And forget advertising by reloading in an open garage.
Or doing anything inviting in plain sight.

Sooner or later, kids move on, graduate school, get jobs, grow out of it and disappear.
Rarely do they stick around doing the same thing for more than one summer.
Sometimes doing nothing is the right thing.

[BlueTrain]

When that happens in my neighborhood, and it does (I also live across from a tennis court), and in other places I walk within a mile of home, I just pick up the trash. It comes and goes. They grow up sooner or later.

But then I'm only 63.

[BGutzman]

Use the remedy that the malls and certain stores use..... Play some Barry Manilow or other suitable uncool music (with the hip junk crowd) on a low level but loud enough to to be clearly heard. (Get your neighbors to approve and it will go over even better).

Do not stop playing the music every time they gather until well after they leave... A couple of weeks and they will all be gone after being overwhelmed by the uncool.

[XR750]

Is there a home owners assc. go complain to them. there good at making a pain in the a$$ of themselves.
XR750

[geetarman]

Thanks for all the responses. They trashed the place again yesterday afternoon.

I called the police again who came out and talked to them but did not make them clean up the mess. Probably because they did not witness the action.

I observed one mother showing up to take her son home and and she threw litter also. Not sure talking to parents is such a good idea.

These "kids" have been giving some of the other young folks in the neighbor hood a hard time when they walk by on the way to the community pool.

Will just to wait and see how it plays out.


As for the suggestion to reload some where other than the garage. Houses in Phoenix do not have basements. I reload in the garage by necessity. I keep the door open for the same reason. The heat can be brutal.

I will keep you posted how this turns out.

Thanks again.

Geetarman

[spacecoast]

Tongue-in-cheek --> Shoot up some human/silhouette targets and post them on the fence before the kids get there...

I liked the Barry Manilow music suggestion as well. Another... get your church to hold an evening event on the tennis courts and invite the kids in for some hot dogs and refreshments. Post flyers inviting folks to attend church on the fence. Organize a community tennis tournament. Try to get the place locked up when it's not being used. Anything to let the kids know that it's not "their" property.

[g.willikers]

We live with heat and humidity, not just heat.
Yesterday it was 98 with 95% humidity.
When messing about in the garage, I just keep the large overhead door only open about two feet, instead of all the way.
The breezes are actually better than if the door was fully open.
Venturi effect, maybe.
And no prying eyes, either.
Lots of good fans, too.
Just a suggestion.
Heat is hell, fur sure.

[geetarman]

I do keep a fan running and do not raise the door all the way. It is still pretty easy to see what I am doing.

Thanks for the tip. I appreciate it.

Geetarman

[animal]

Btw, by "’clean house’ by yourself" I didn’t mean doing something stupid like brandishing or going vigilante. It was meant in the sense of doing what you can legally do as far as calling cops, and making the thugs as uncomfortable as possible when doing their dirty deeds.
If every time they see you looking closely at ‘em, the cops show up 20 or 30 minutes later… they’re gonna notice, and if they are dangerous, you become a target. That’s when carrying concealed might come in. … discreet and only for defense, of course.

If I were in your shoes, I’d start getting with neighbors … beginning with the ones you know, expanding to the ones they know, and leaving out the parents of the thugs … to build a firm base of allies and "eyes for the police". Then, all those eyes need to call the cops EVERY time they see something bad going on … not the next day, or even ten minutes later. Once the thugs get the idea that the neighborhood won’t tolerate their bad behavior, you might even get a chance to "get positive" and reward the kids that decide it’s best to play by the rules. The parents that care will come to you and get involved, then.

I’ m not a big fan of making any highly visible or reactionary changes in normal behavior patterns, but subtle changes of being more prepared and aware are a must. Them seeing you reloading has its pros as well as cons. For one thing, they immediately know you’re not one of those guys that go through a box of the cheapest WalMart stuff you can find every two to five years.
Calm self confidence without bravado seems to confuse and scare the thug types more than anything.
If they get the idea that you are too much for them to handle, aren’t a threat to them (physically, or in "neighborhood prestige") as long as they leave you alone … they usually have enough brain cells still working to cause them to leave you alone. The ones that would go after you because you’re willing to stand your ground … well, that’s what the concealed pistol is for.

And a Barry Manilow block party could be a fun idea in the mean time. After all, you’re a gun guy, so ... you should already have adequate ear protection.

[animal]

Geez, the heat and humidity hasn’t even really started yet ! Didn’t catch the real temperature, but yesterdays "heat index" number was a pleasant springtime 102 here.

Hang on guys, August will be here soon. Water and fans are our friends

[geetarman]

Animal,

Good tips and thanks. I do have the neighbors enlisted. Some are still in the workforce so they are not always around, but they ARE aware.

I do not want to give them a target so I do not make a show of watching them.

I have weapons within easy reach in the house and in the garage. I really do not want to get to the point that I really feel the need for one when I am in the garage.

My goal is to make them leave and not to become a target.

Any way you slice it, one who decides to use violence has the advantage of determining time and place.

I think it is best to not use use violence but be prepared with a whole lot of force as a response to violence.

I really hope it does not come to that.

Geetarman