Another Lead Hardness Question of Sorts

SpringOWeiler · March 4, 2014, 08:14 PM

I've reached my limit on patience for the manufactures to restock reloading components. It seems like our unified support over the last year and a half has translated into 125-150% price increases on ammo and components in my area. Thank year Sierra, Hornady, Speer, Federal, and all the others. Even my budget sources have been dried up for over 6 months. The only solution i see is to start casting again.

I'm planning on focusing my efforts on the 7.62x39mm. I would like to use the 160gr tumble lube gas checked design. I plan on melting down range scrap as my primary source of lead. I'm under the impression that range scrap is essentially pure lead or 8-12BHN. However, since I'm using a gas check is the lead suitable to shoot at 1900-2100fps? Or do i need to buy a hardener and do a little bit of math to find the proper wt%? Also I'll be getting something in the 405+gr wt range for my 1895gg 45-70. I don't have a mold picked out would love suggestions for that gun.

I'm pretty new to smokeless casting, I've only made 50 cal minnie balls for a knight inline, and 45cal 200 concials for a colt walker repo. I think I have the the basic process down, but almost zero experience to base it off of.

Thanks!

GP100man · March 4, 2014, 08:24 PM

The 45-70 will probably be happy with 10-12 bhn, the speed you speak of in the 7.62x39 will need a harder alloy probably in the 16-18 bhn & a check .

Also consider the action of the 7.62x39 , if gas operated lead will be a problem sooner or later no matter how hard.

SpringOWeiler · March 4, 2014, 08:29 PM

Yeah it's a ak. Wasr10/63 .3115 groove diameter avg. Does lead cause problems in the gas operated rifles? Or just a mess? I don't mind cleaning a mess.

SpringOWeiler · March 4, 2014, 08:45 PM

I just googled "shooting lead in the ak 47" hilarious results. Don't steal my spaghetti! lol

SpringOWeiler · March 4, 2014, 11:33 PM

Or what velocity range should i stick too if using a gas checked range scrap bullet?

skizzums · March 4, 2014, 11:43 PM

many folks at castboolits shoot lead out of aks and minis and even m1 carbines, i have yet to hear of problems, you can read some threads over theres to find out what hardness they use

but, even better, xtreme bullets sells plated 762x39, they are almost always in stock and pretty cheap considering

http://www.xtremebullets.com/category-s/48049.htm

FrankenMauser · March 5, 2014, 01:17 AM

Quote:

I'm planning on focusing my efforts on the 7.62x39mm. I would like to use the 160gr tumble lube gas checked design.

Oh, Dear God!!! The internet just exploded! You can't shoot bullets that heavy in an AK or SKS. It'll blow up!!

All kidding aside...
All of the above advice has been good. However, I have a personal hatred of tumble-lube designs(*). I very much prefer good, old-fashion lube grooves full of proper lube. Rifles love to make bullets "run out of lube", especially with proper loads. So, I just can't see a TL design working well for your intended purpose.

*The exception is powder coated bullets. If you're going to coat them anyway, why have deep lube grooves that won't be used?...

If you want to try GC-ed range scrap, I'd probably aim for about 1,200-1,400 fps.

SpringOWeiler · March 5, 2014, 08:05 AM

FrankenMauser:
Oh jeeze lol Well hopefully the gas impulse blows out the barrel parallel to the gas port from that titanic slug.
Thanks for the advice I'll check out powder coating, maybe it would be a better choice.

skizzums: I'll check them out and see if they have any posts about it. I'm not a fan of xtreme bullets, i've had less than satisfactory performance out of their products. I'm pretty dead set on using heavy weight bullets in this rifle, so nothing below 150gr.

guncheese · March 7, 2014, 11:25 PM

comment from the peanut gallery!
im going to be shooting cast in my SKS
and i slugged the bore last week ugggg .3135"
so im going to powder coat some as cast .310" boolits
should work out fine
and with the powder coat one should not have to worry about gas checks
or what alloy you use, so range scrap should be just the ticket
wish me luck!

SpringOWeiler · March 10, 2014, 07:39 PM

Let me know how it works out. I've been intrigued by the powder coating method. It'll be interesting to see how the coating holds up in a undersized bullet .

totalloser · March 11, 2014, 02:46 AM

There's a lot of folks having very good luck with powder coated non-gas checked pills in 300 blackout in AR platforms. Fairly similar in weight and velocity to 7.62x39, so I'd venture it would be workable without a check.

There's a fair amount of experimentation still going on with fixturing methods for rifle pill electrostatic powder coating, but a LOT of methods of tumble coatings are fast and effective.

I was able to drop my alloy WAY softer with powder coating since gas cutting simply goes away with a PC. But I'm only casting for pistols.

As to range lead it is all OVER the place as far as alloy. The thing to look for is the type of bullets. If you see a bunch of pistol bullets with lube grooves, you are going to see higher bhn and experience better mold fillout due to tin content. If all you see is jacketed, well you'll probably be looking for alloying agents- tin, antimony, pewter etc.

mehavey · March 11, 2014, 05:11 PM

Use Lyman's 457193/405gr (412-actual at BH=15) w/ AA5744 for 1,200-1,500fps out of that GBL.
(It certainly works well in mine)

Code:

1895MarlinGBL 45-70   by volume/H=59.0 Cast 459 /Size 459              06/15/12
Lyman 405 LFN 457193 #2 (412ctual) /AA5744/31.0/ BR2/ StarLine* /OAL:2.555"
QL= 21,587psi/1,485fps (18.5") *(QLeq-Vol=84.4H20)**60% Case /HvyCrimp

Code:

1895MarlinGBL 45-70   by volume/H=46.7  Cast 459 /Size 459              06/15/12
Lyman 405 LFN 457193 #2 (412ctual) /AA5744/24.5/ BR2/ StarLine* /OAL:2.555"
QL= 12,967psi/1,209fps (18.5") *(QLeq-Vol=84.4H20)**47% Case /HvyCrimp

I recommend Liquid Alox, using Lee's push-through sizer, and 2nd light coat LLA after sizing.
(But Lyman 450 sizer using standard 50/50 Lyman beeswax/Alox works OK)

Beagle333 · March 11, 2014, 06:02 PM

chris in va · March 11, 2014, 06:37 PM

The tumble lube/gas checked Lee 155's I put through my AK formed a lead ring around the gas piston hole and jammed it solid.

I do however use them in my CZ carbine.

SpringOWeiler · March 13, 2014, 07:46 PM

(chris in va): did some normal jacket rounds clear out that project?

(Beagle333): Those sure are a hunk of bright red lead. lol

(mehavey): Thank you for all the info. I'll keep an eye out for that powder and lube them twice.

March 4, 2014, 08:14 PM	#1
SpringOWeiler Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2014 Location: Washington (Dry Side) Posts: 116	Another Lead Hardness Question of Sorts I've reached my limit on patience for the manufactures to restock reloading components. It seems like our unified support over the last year and a half has translated into 125-150% price increases on ammo and components in my area. Thank year Sierra, Hornady, Speer, Federal, and all the others. Even my budget sources have been dried up for over 6 months. The only solution i see is to start casting again. I'm planning on focusing my efforts on the 7.62x39mm. I would like to use the 160gr tumble lube gas checked design. I plan on melting down range scrap as my primary source of lead. I'm under the impression that range scrap is essentially pure lead or 8-12BHN. However, since I'm using a gas check is the lead suitable to shoot at 1900-2100fps? Or do i need to buy a hardener and do a little bit of math to find the proper wt%? Also I'll be getting something in the 405+gr wt range for my 1895gg 45-70. I don't have a mold picked out would love suggestions for that gun. I'm pretty new to smokeless casting, I've only made 50 cal minnie balls for a knight inline, and 45cal 200 concials for a colt walker repo. I think I have the the basic process down, but almost zero experience to base it off of. Thanks!

March 4, 2014, 08:45 PM	#4
SpringOWeiler Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2014 Location: Washington (Dry Side) Posts: 116	I just googled "shooting lead in the ak 47" hilarious results. Don't steal my spaghetti! lol Last edited by SpringOWeiler; March 4, 2014 at 10:46 PM.

March 4, 2014, 11:43 PM	#6
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	many folks at castboolits shoot lead out of aks and minis and even m1 carbines, i have yet to hear of problems, you can read some threads over theres to find out what hardness they use but, even better, xtreme bullets sells plated 762x39, they are almost always in stock and pretty cheap considering http://www.xtremebullets.com/category-s/48049.htm __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

March 11, 2014, 02:46 AM	#11
totalloser Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2007 Location: Fort Bragg, CA Posts: 679	There's a lot of folks having very good luck with powder coated non-gas checked pills in 300 blackout in AR platforms. Fairly similar in weight and velocity to 7.62x39, so I'd venture it would be workable without a check. There's a fair amount of experimentation still going on with fixturing methods for rifle pill electrostatic powder coating, but a LOT of methods of tumble coatings are fast and effective. I was able to drop my alloy WAY softer with powder coating since gas cutting simply goes away with a PC. But I'm only casting for pistols. As to range lead it is all OVER the place as far as alloy. The thing to look for is the type of bullets. If you see a bunch of pistol bullets with lube grooves, you are going to see higher bhn and experience better mold fillout due to tin content. If all you see is jacketed, well you'll probably be looking for alloying agents- tin, antimony, pewter etc. __________________ You only truly believe in freedom if you believe in the freedom of those you disagree.

March 11, 2014, 05:11 PM	#12
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,885	Use Lyman's 457193/405gr (412-actual at BH=15) w/ AA5744 for 1,200-1,500fps out of that GBL. (It certainly works well in mine) Code: 1895MarlinGBL 45-70 by volume/H=59.0 Cast 459 /Size 459 06/15/12 Lyman 405 LFN 457193 #2 (412ctual) /AA5744/31.0/ BR2/ StarLine* /OAL:2.555" QL= 21,587psi/1,485fps (18.5") (QLeq-Vol=84.4H20)60% Case /HvyCrimp Code: 1895MarlinGBL 45-70 by volume/H=46.7 Cast 459 /Size 459 06/15/12 Lyman 405 LFN 457193 #2 (412ctual) /AA5744/24.5/ BR2/ StarLine /OAL:2.555" QL= 12,967psi/1,209fps (18.5") (QLeq-Vol=84.4H20)47% Case /HvyCrimp I recommend Liquid Alox, using Lee's push-through sizer, and 2nd light coat LLA after sizing. (But Lyman 450 sizer using standard 50/50 Lyman beeswax/Alox works OK) Last edited by mehavey; March 11, 2014 at 05:27 PM.*

March 4, 2014, 08:24 PM	#2
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	My thoughts The 45-70 will probably be happy with 10-12 bhn, the speed you speak of in the 7.62x39 will need a harder alloy probably in the 16-18 bhn & a check . Also consider the action of the 7.62x39 , if gas operated lead will be a problem sooner or later no matter how hard. __________________ GP100man

March 4, 2014, 08:29 PM	#3
SpringOWeiler Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2014 Location: Washington (Dry Side) Posts: 116	Yeah it's a ak. Wasr10/63 .3115 groove diameter avg. Does lead cause problems in the gas operated rifles? Or just a mess? I don't mind cleaning a mess.

March 4, 2014, 11:33 PM	#5
SpringOWeiler Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2014 Location: Washington (Dry Side) Posts: 116	Or what velocity range should i stick too if using a gas checked range scrap bullet?

March 5, 2014, 08:05 AM	#8
SpringOWeiler Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2014 Location: Washington (Dry Side) Posts: 116	FrankenMauser: Oh jeeze lol Well hopefully the gas impulse blows out the barrel parallel to the gas port from that titanic slug. Thanks for the advice I'll check out powder coating, maybe it would be a better choice. skizzums: I'll check them out and see if they have any posts about it. I'm not a fan of xtreme bullets, i've had less than satisfactory performance out of their products. I'm pretty dead set on using heavy weight bullets in this rifle, so nothing below 150gr.

March 7, 2014, 11:25 PM	#9
guncheese Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2013 Posts: 128	comment from the peanut gallery! im going to be shooting cast in my SKS and i slugged the bore last week ugggg .3135" so im going to powder coat some as cast .310" boolits should work out fine and with the powder coat one should not have to worry about gas checks or what alloy you use, so range scrap should be just the ticket wish me luck!

March 10, 2014, 07:39 PM	#10
SpringOWeiler Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2014 Location: Washington (Dry Side) Posts: 116	Let me know how it works out. I've been intrigued by the powder coating method. It'll be interesting to see how the coating holds up in a undersized bullet .

March 11, 2014, 06:02 PM	#13
Beagle333 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: Auburn, AL. Posts: 2,332	457193, it's a nice hunk o' lead. __________________ . . . Have a Colt and a smile.

March 11, 2014, 06:37 PM	#14
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	The tumble lube/gas checked Lee 155's I put through my AK formed a lead ring around the gas piston hole and jammed it solid. I do however use them in my CZ carbine.

March 13, 2014, 07:46 PM	#15
SpringOWeiler Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2014 Location: Washington (Dry Side) Posts: 116	(chris in va): did some normal jacket rounds clear out that project? (Beagle333): Those sure are a hunk of bright red lead. lol (mehavey): Thank you for all the info. I'll keep an eye out for that powder and lube them twice. Last edited by SpringOWeiler; March 13, 2014 at 09:14 PM.