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Old September 10, 2020, 11:11 AM   #1
TravisHenderson
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AR Pistol Questions

Hi,

First post here!

What prompted me is I wanted a new AR. One of the few rifles I am familiar with so in these times a perfect fit. Of course quality ARs are difficult to come by recently. Each time my research pointed towards one it was out of stock nationwide. So....

I did locate an AR pistol very close to what I had decided upon and would like the groups opinion before I purchase it.

It's a Daniel Defense DDM4 V7 P with 10.3" barrel and folding stock. I was aiming for a plain ol' DDM4 V7 and this as close as I've seen. That said it may be a better option for me. I've had other DD items and always impressed as I am with this one. I travel a lot in an RV (AR friendly states!) and with space a premium the smaller profile a plus.

I want an AR as a SHTF and fun gun. I'm not a range hound but shoot enough to keep trigger and eye sharp. I want an AR that is as close to a complete quality package as possible. I did not start the search for a pistol but am now thinking that may be a viable option with limited choices in this age...

If you could please direct me on pros and cons of this AR I would be grateful!

Oh yes! Would a red dot say Vortex Spitfire be a good match for AR pistols?

Thanks!

Trav
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Old September 10, 2020, 11:38 AM   #2
imashooter
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I have a few pistols and really appreciate each. I believe the one mentioned would be a very good pistol to have. I'm not a folding stock person but as long as it's fast when needed and reliable, I see no issue in having one. The barrel length is a good choice. I have a spitfire 1x on a carbine and it gets the job done just fine. I also have a 2.5x and 3x prism on a couple of pistols which I really like. I greatly appreciate prisms with both their etched and illuminated reticles.

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Old September 10, 2020, 12:06 PM   #3
raimius
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A 10in AR is quite compact and would make a good defensive firearm. With .223/5.56 in that length barrel, they do lose out on velocity, which makes them significantly less effective at distance (bullets tend to not expand or fragment below certain velocities). So, with common bullets, the terminal effects will be reduced after 100-200yds...but that is usually not a big concern for civilian defense, as very few situations would be justifiable at that range.
The bullet will still be accurate to a good distance, just not as effective when it gets there, if it's below 2300-2500fps.

As for terminology, it's subtle but legally important! A 10in barreled gun with a stock is an NFA Short Barreled Rifle, which requires a ATF registration, a $200 tax stamp, and prior permission to cross state lines. (Or a 10yr prison sentence). A 10in barreled firearm with a stabilizing brace is just a pistol.
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Old September 10, 2020, 05:30 PM   #4
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Imashooter, nice pistols! Have you considered giving the SBA-4 a try. About a half or three quarter inch longer and sturdier.
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Old September 10, 2020, 06:09 PM   #5
HiBC
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IMO,in pistol length barrels,300 Blackout will give better performance than 5.56

Brass is easily made from 5.56.

The AR pistol (at this point) fits through a narrow loophole in the law.

I'm NOT a lawyer or an authority on the law.

It behooves you to do your own research so you are knowledgeable enough to take care of yourself.

Look up and study the BATF 2017 policy letter on "Braces vs buttstocks".
I don't know of any more recent info.There are some informative you tube vids on the topic,too.

There are some fine points around "engineering and reengineering" and definitions.

My understanding (which could be wrong! Rely on your own research and your own lawyer) is that if the "pistol" is engineered or re-engineered to be fired from the shoulder,it may require registration as a Short Barreled Rifle,Tax stamp,etc.

However,the BATF concedes that incidentally firing the gun with the brace contacting the shoulder does not re-engineer the gun into an SBR.

IMO,there is some thin ice there,and it may be subject to interpretation by whatever law enforcement officer you may encounter.

One fine point detail I noticed . If I was a BATF agent, I think I would look at this.
The sights. Some sights,such as a red dot with infinite eye relief,or an open notch rear sight, are useful and appropriate for a gun engineered to be a handgun. A long eye relief handgun scope would also fill the bill.

However,it occurs to me that perhaps short eye relief type sights might effectively re-engineer the AR pistol to a short barreled rifle use.

Specific examples : Rear peep sights ,such as standard AR rear sights,and scopes,generally with magnification, that have a fixed short eye relief.
If you do use the brace as it is designed to be used,and hold the gun out as a pistol,these sights don't work.

These sighting systems MAY, in my opinion,suggest the pistol has been re-engineered to be fired as a rifle.

I can't say that with authority, but if I have an AR pistol, I would look at such rifle oriented sights as a vulnerability.

My AR pistol will have an open notch rear iron sight, as most pistols do and later,an unlimited eye relief red dot.

The letter specifically mentions an unfavorable view of braces permanently attached to the rearmost position on the receiver extension. I positioned mine approx 1 1/2 in forward .

I figure attention to the details of compliance with the 2017 BATF memo is in my own best interests.

Last edited by HiBC; September 10, 2020 at 06:16 PM.
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Old September 10, 2020, 06:25 PM   #6
9x19
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Nothing in the law (or that policy letter) requires ANY pistol to be shot only at arms length.

Having short eye relief optics on a pistol does not re-engineer it to be fired only from a shouldered position. Suppose you use the foam covered buffer tube to obtain a cheek weld while using those optics.... now suppose you use a brace the same way.

Your adherence to the law is admirable, your injecting phantoms is kind of silly.
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Old September 10, 2020, 07:51 PM   #7
HiBC
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Quote:
Your injecting phantoms is rather silly
We disagree. You may do things as you wish. As the consequence is a 10 year sentence felony, you are free to think my approach is silly,and I am free to think your approach is stupid.

From the BATF:

"The receiver extension/buffer tube on an AR-type pistol serves a legitimate, vital function in the operation of the weapon system; and if utilized as originally designed is not considered to be a shoulder stock. Further, a pistol that has an AR-t1pe buffer tube or similar component assembled to it, which consequently allows for the installation of a saddle/cheek enhancement accessory, is not classified as a SBR; nor unlawful to possess.

However, if a pistol assembled with an AR-type buffer tube or similar component; which in tum, redesigns the subject AR-type pistol to be designed or redesigned and consequently intended to be fired from the shoulder; an NFA weapon as defined in 26 U.S.C. $ 58a5(a)(3); has been made."

End quote.

You may interpret that your way, I will interpret it mine.

And the BATF agent will interpret it also. Note the use of the word "Intended"
Intent is a big deal here. If SIG manufactures an AR pistol the BATF approves of, SIG has no control over use,and is free of intent.

If I take a legit SIG AR pistol and attach a short eye relief rifle scope to it,
A sight that is only practical to use when the gun is positioned for shoulder firing
Its pretty strong evidence of redesign with intent to fire from the shoulder.

I'm not a lawyer or a BATF agent. I'm simply stating the choices I made to take care of myself.

I assume,9x19,that you are neither a lawyer or a BATF agent.

In that case its pretty irresponsible to encourage a new member asking questions to take a path that could have serious consequences.

I have a great idea. Lets have Moderators with legal knowledge weigh in on this one.

Lets see who wins,silly or stupid.
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Old September 11, 2020, 12:55 AM   #8
raimius
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It is largely a question of intent, but, as far as I am aware, the ATF has only made commentary on length of pull and modification of the brace. I am unaware of any ATF discussion on sight choices being a factor in their consideration.

Essentially, they may use it as a factor, but there is currently no evidence that they have or will in the future...thus it's all speculation on your part.
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Old September 11, 2020, 06:39 AM   #9
imashooter
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Quote:
Imashooter, nice pistols! Have you considered giving the SBA-4 a try. About a half or three quarter inch longer and sturdier.
Thanks. No. I'm fine with the 3s.
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Old September 11, 2020, 10:31 AM   #10
TravisHenderson
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Thanks!

Good information! I am aware of the limitations with the stock/brace and am buying a better quality AR due to the complete nature of it where I don't feel compelled to alter in anyway.

I assume if I buy brand new I should have no issues with the as-is AR being legal.


I'm considering an Aimpoint PRO. I had one on my carbine and liked it ok. It was a dud with poor battery life so returned but liked it fine!

Is there any considerations for shorter barrel ARs for sight options? I think the Aimpoint has a spacer that could be removed if that would be more appropriate for a short barrel.

Trav
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Old September 11, 2020, 11:06 AM   #11
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I have an Aimpoint PRO on one of my SBR’s. Its a good optic, but batteries are hard to find locally. I have to order em online.

There are a cpl good optics that use more common batteries that i would recommend before the pro. Eo-tech or Sig Romeo 5’s come to mind. Both can be had using AAA batteries and are simple to change out when needed. I think the Romeo 5 has a 30-50,000 hour batt life and an auto off feature
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Old September 11, 2020, 11:20 AM   #12
TravisHenderson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbite View Post
I have an Aimpoint PRO on one of my SBR’s. Its a good optic, but batteries are hard to find locally. I have to order em online.

There are a cpl good optics that use more common batteries that i would recommend before the pro. Eo-tech or Sig Romeo 5’s come to mind. Both can be had using AAA batteries and are simple to change out when needed. I think the Romeo 5 has a 30-50,000 hour batt life and an auto off feature
The AAA batteries are what evens the field for the Vortex. Seems most are sold out nearby and the Vortex gets some odd reviews I wouldn't be able to confirm without hands on.

Since I know the Aimpoint and have to order online I may as well go with that for now. I hope the one I had was an anomaly with battery life being so brief....

Side note...guns shops are depressed man! I called a few and requesting availability of typical items and met with sighs and not in stock...

Thanks!

Trav
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Old September 13, 2020, 06:46 AM   #13
imashooter
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Just build it and be done with. There's a lot of paranoid types around these day. The same ones you can never count on for fear of "I might get in trouble .....".
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Old September 13, 2020, 08:08 AM   #14
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I just bought the Ruger. Paid $550 for it.

https://ruger.com/products/ar556Pist...eets/8570.html

Put this scope on it. On 1X it is plenty fast up close, on 6X I shoot 6" steel plates at 300 yards. It isn't quite as accurate as my AR rifles, but for such a compact gun it serves a purpose.

https://www.swfa.com/optics/riflesco...e-scope-2.html

If I were buying a scope specifically for it I'd go with something a little smaller, but I had this one sitting around. It has an illuminated reticle, but I doubt if I'll ever use the feature.
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Old September 13, 2020, 02:15 PM   #15
rickyrick
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The cool thing about pistols, you can put ALMOST anything you want on it, except a stock or a vertical fore grip.

I tried a couple of calibers, but settled on 300aac, the pistol pictured. I salvaged parts from and converted a 5.56 pistol upper to 6.8spc carbine.

Pistols are a hoot to shoot, as long as you use a cheek weld on the tube, you don’t really need a stock.




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Old September 13, 2020, 03:24 PM   #16
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Jmr40, that is a decent price for that Ruger in today’s market as long as someone hasn’t already shot the heck out of it. People also tend to not understand the good accuracy you can get out of a shorty. I can do similar at 200 yards on an AR w/10.5” barrel using a 3x prism.
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Old September 14, 2020, 06:03 AM   #17
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Quote:
Pistols are a hoot to shoot, as long as you use a cheek weld on the tube, you don’t really need a stock.
Hallelujah--this should be reprinted on every thread that comes up on "zombie pistol buttstock morph into SBR scare" threads.
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Old September 14, 2020, 09:16 PM   #18
gaseousclay
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The Daniel Defense is a beauty. If money were no object I’d go DD. I’d avoid 300 blackout though cuz ammo is slim pickens.
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Old September 15, 2020, 12:54 PM   #19
stagpanther
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Just build it and be done with.
Best advice yet.
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Old September 16, 2020, 12:26 PM   #20
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Gassy, plenty of Legend 350 ammo around.
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Old September 16, 2020, 01:48 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisHenderson
Good information! I am aware of the limitations with the stock/brace and am buying a better quality AR due to the complete nature of it where I don't feel compelled to alter in anyway.

I assume if I buy brand new I should have no issues with the as-is AR being legal.
I would not assume that, but you are an adult and you can make your own decisions.

Obviously, you have ignited a debate over potential legality. As has been mention, so-called wrist "braces" have been determined by the BATFE to be legal on AR-type pistols. Thyat's the status today -- but bump fire stocks were legal one day, and then one bright day the boys at the BATFE issued an opinion saying they are no legal.

But ... your opening post didn't mention a wrist brace. You wrote "It's a Daniel Defense DDM4 V7 P with 10.3" barrel and folding stock."

Therein lies a problem. As far as I know, the BATFE has not approved any folding stock on any pistol-length AR as being a legal, non-NFA pistol.

But, when I look up the Daniel Defense DDM4V7 P, I don't see a folding stock. What I see is a wrist brace. And their description says:

Quote:
The Daniel Defense DDM4V7 P features M-LOK attachment technology and comes equipped with the SB Tactical SBA3 Pistol Stabilizing Brace with 5 positions of adjustability and integral, ambidextrous QD swivel attachment point.
So -- what are you looking at, a wrist brace or a folding stock?
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