Help wanted with side by side Hunter.

Sam58 · June 15, 2020, 02:53 PM

Hi, new on this forum but looks great. I live in Holland and purchased an old side by side shotgun in kaliber 12/70. On the barrel is engraved 'Hunter', but not sure whether that is the brand or the type. Serial number is FSC37739. On the bottom of the right barrel is printed 650 kgs and on the left barrel 1310. Any idea what we are looking at and how old it is? Still works great and accurate.

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eastbank · June 15, 2020, 04:28 PM

i,m no help, but if it checked out as safe and it looks like its in good condition. i would put a oil finish on the stock and go hunting.

FITASC · June 15, 2020, 04:50 PM

No other markings? No country of origin? I am having a hard time reading the marks in the third pic; could this be German, Austrian or ?????

Virginian · June 16, 2020, 09:59 AM

That's a large variance in pressure. Bet one is Kgs and one is BAR.

Henneman · June 16, 2020, 05:15 PM

I would speculate that this is of Spanish origin. It appears to have "chopper lump" barrels and perhaps a "Greener" style cross bolt and underlugs. The chopper lump barrels are typical of this style. What's not helpful to you that there were quite a few different manufacturers of double barrels of various quality in the Eibar region of Spain. Most of these are gone now as they were dependent on traditional manufacture methods and aging skilled artisans. These companies also sold guns under various trade names too. I have a similar Ugartechea (mfg.) that was labeled "Excel." That company ceased operation in 2016, if I recall. I also had a Spanish double barrel years ago which was serviceable, but not as nice as the Ugartechea. I think most of these Spanish guns are good shooters, and some are very high quality, i.e. AYA. Unfortunately I know nothing of European or Spanish proof marks, and that is where the definitive solution to the mystery lies.

FITASC · June 16, 2020, 06:53 PM

If you Google Spanish proof marks you should get some answers

Sam58 · June 17, 2020, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henneman

I would speculate that this is of Spanish origin. It appears to have "chopper lump" barrels and perhaps a "Greener" style cross bolt and underlugs. The chopper lump barrels are typical of this style. What's not helpful to you that there were quite a few different manufacturers of double barrels of various quality in the Eibar region of Spain. Most of these are gone now as they were dependent on traditional manufacture methods and aging skilled artisans. These companies also sold guns under various trade names too. I have a similar Ugartechea (mfg.) that was labeled "Excel." That company ceased operation in 2016, if I recall. I also had a Spanish double barrel years ago which was serviceable, but not as nice as the Ugartechea. I think most of these Spanish guns are good shooters, and some are very high quality, i.e. AYA. Unfortunately I know nothing of European or Spanish proof marks, and that is where the definitive solution to the mystery lies.

Thanks Henneman. Interesting stuf!

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stuckinthe60s · June 17, 2020, 07:34 AM

can we see the buttplate?

stuckinthe60s · June 17, 2020, 07:38 AM

buttplate and pistol grip art sometimes can i.d. a gun.

Romulus · June 19, 2020, 12:28 AM

You can make out the Eibar Proofing House mark (shield wit X through it) on the bottom row, fourth proof from the right. That may help narrow it down.
Rom

Romulus · June 19, 2020, 12:42 AM

From Chuck Hawks

"The Charles Daly Field II Hunter was an inexpensive Spanish made boxlock marketed by K.B.I. (now defunct). It featured a checkered walnut pistol grip stock and beavertail forearm, engraved silver receiver, monobloc barrels with a solid rib, gold selective single trigger, extractors and automatic safety. It was available in 10, 12, 20, 28, and .410 gauge. The somewhat fancier Superior Grade weighed about 7 pounds and was similar in specification, but came with chrome lined barrels. It was available in 12 and 20 gauge only. At the top of the line was the deluxe Empire Hunter with game scene engraving and selective ejectors."

Closest I could find to a Spanish double with the "Hunter" moniker.
Rom

Romulus · June 19, 2020, 01:26 AM

Just read that the field grade Hunter shotguns were made for Charles Daly by the Zabala hermanos in Eibar, Spain. Eibar up in Basque country is to Spain what Gardone Val Trompia is to Italy, amazing how many makers they have

Rom

Henneman · June 19, 2020, 01:04 PM

The Spanish sxs I had thirty years ago was also a "Zabala." I gave it to a friend who used it for ruffed grouse until it was stolen in a burglary. That gun was not adorned as nicely as the pics above. As the original poster is in Holland, he should buy a "Holland & Holland." They make some decent guns, at a slightly higher price point. They have a store nearby in London.

Romulus · June 19, 2020, 04:14 PM

FITASC · June 19, 2020, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Just read that the field grade Hunter shotguns were made for Charles Daly by the Zabala hermanos in Eibar, Spain. Eibar up in Basque country is to Spain what Gardone Val Trompia is to Italy, amazing how many makers they have

Rom
______

No Longer. HAD would be appropriate. Kemen is left as is AyA, maybe 1 or 2 small shops as well.

Romulus · June 19, 2020, 06:10 PM

How sad! Thanks for that info.
Rom

Sam58 · June 20, 2020, 02:44 AM

Thanks for all this information guys, impressive and helpful. I got the gun from an old friend who stopped hunting. He had the gun for over 30 yrs and no idea about the origins. I will keep it and shot a few rounds now and then. It's pretty accurate. For the clay range I have a Browning b525, simple and fantastic gun.

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Romulus · June 20, 2020, 05:28 AM

If the OP from the great state of the Netherlands doesn't mind, I'd like to ask the moderator move this thread to The Harley Nolden Memorial Institute for Firearms Research section, I'd like to enlist some additional knowledge. Thanks,
Rom

Sam58 · June 21, 2020, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romulus

If the OP from the great state of the Netherlands doesn't mind, I'd like to ask the moderator move this thread to The Harley Nolden Memorial Institute for Firearms Research section, I'd like to enlist some additional knowledge. Thanks,
Rom

Sounds great to me. Please go ahead.

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clang · July 31, 2020, 09:32 AM

The 12-70 mostly likely stands for 12 gauge, 70mm chambers, so 2 3/4" shells are OK.

I believe the 650 kgs is the allowable working pressure rating of 650 kg/cm2, which equates to about 9,250 psi, so no heavy loads is best.

1310 is most likely the weight of the barrels, 1,310 grams. I bet it's a pretty light shotgun - great for field carry.

June 15, 2020, 02:53 PM	#1
Sam58 Junior Member Join Date: May 12, 2014 Location: Netherlands Posts: 5	Help wanted with side by side Hunter. Hi, new on this forum but looks great. I live in Holland and purchased an old side by side shotgun in kaliber 12/70. On the barrel is engraved 'Hunter', but not sure whether that is the brand or the type. Serial number is FSC37739. On the bottom of the right barrel is printed 650 kgs and on the left barrel 1310. Any idea what we are looking at and how old it is? Still works great and accurate. Verstuurd vanaf mijn ANE-LX1 met Tapatalk

June 15, 2020, 04:50 PM	#3
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	No other markings? No country of origin? I am having a hard time reading the marks in the third pic; could this be German, Austrian or ????? __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

June 16, 2020, 09:59 AM	#4
Virginian Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2012 Location: Williamsburg, Va. Posts: 1,528	That's a large variance in pressure. Bet one is Kgs and one is BAR. __________________ What could have happened... did.

June 16, 2020, 06:53 PM	#6
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	If you Google Spanish proof marks you should get some answers __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

June 17, 2020, 07:34 AM	#8
stuckinthe60s Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2017 Location: Va., Ct., Mo.. Posts: 877	can we see the buttplate? __________________ Retired Military Aviation Former Member Navy Shooting Team Distinguished Pistol Shot,NRA Shotgun/Pistol Instructor NSSA All American, Skeet/Trap Range Owner

June 15, 2020, 04:28 PM	#2
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	i,m no help, but if it checked out as safe and it looks like its in good condition. i would put a oil finish on the stock and go hunting.

June 16, 2020, 05:15 PM	#5
Henneman Member Join Date: November 30, 2010 Location: Northwest Wisconsin Posts: 20	I would speculate that this is of Spanish origin. It appears to have "chopper lump" barrels and perhaps a "Greener" style cross bolt and underlugs. The chopper lump barrels are typical of this style. What's not helpful to you that there were quite a few different manufacturers of double barrels of various quality in the Eibar region of Spain. Most of these are gone now as they were dependent on traditional manufacture methods and aging skilled artisans. These companies also sold guns under various trade names too. I have a similar Ugartechea (mfg.) that was labeled "Excel." That company ceased operation in 2016, if I recall. I also had a Spanish double barrel years ago which was serviceable, but not as nice as the Ugartechea. I think most of these Spanish guns are good shooters, and some are very high quality, i.e. AYA. Unfortunately I know nothing of European or Spanish proof marks, and that is where the definitive solution to the mystery lies.

June 17, 2020, 07:38 AM	#9
stuckinthe60s Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2017 Location: Va., Ct., Mo.. Posts: 877	buttplate and pistol grip art sometimes can i.d. a gun. __________________ Retired Military Aviation Former Member Navy Shooting Team Distinguished Pistol Shot,NRA Shotgun/Pistol Instructor NSSA All American, Skeet/Trap Range Owner

June 19, 2020, 12:28 AM	#10
Romulus Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2001 Location: Kettle Moraine country Posts: 897	You can make out the Eibar Proofing House mark (shield wit X through it) on the bottom row, fourth proof from the right. That may help narrow it down. Rom __________________ I knew Thomas Jefferson, he was a friend of mine...Governor Clinton, you're no Thomas Jefferson Ti faccio vedere come muore un italiano

June 19, 2020, 12:42 AM	#11
Romulus Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2001 Location: Kettle Moraine country Posts: 897	From Chuck Hawks "The Charles Daly Field II Hunter was an inexpensive Spanish made boxlock marketed by K.B.I. (now defunct). It featured a checkered walnut pistol grip stock and beavertail forearm, engraved silver receiver, monobloc barrels with a solid rib, gold selective single trigger, extractors and automatic safety. It was available in 10, 12, 20, 28, and .410 gauge. The somewhat fancier Superior Grade weighed about 7 pounds and was similar in specification, but came with chrome lined barrels. It was available in 12 and 20 gauge only. At the top of the line was the deluxe Empire Hunter with game scene engraving and selective ejectors." Closest I could find to a Spanish double with the "Hunter" moniker. Rom __________________ I knew Thomas Jefferson, he was a friend of mine...Governor Clinton, you're no Thomas Jefferson Ti faccio vedere come muore un italiano

June 19, 2020, 01:26 AM	#12
Romulus Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2001 Location: Kettle Moraine country Posts: 897	Just read that the field grade Hunter shotguns were made for Charles Daly by the Zabala hermanos in Eibar, Spain. Eibar up in Basque country is to Spain what Gardone Val Trompia is to Italy, amazing how many makers they have Rom __________________ I knew Thomas Jefferson, he was a friend of mine...Governor Clinton, you're no Thomas Jefferson Ti faccio vedere come muore un italiano

June 19, 2020, 01:04 PM	#13
Henneman Member Join Date: November 30, 2010 Location: Northwest Wisconsin Posts: 20	The Spanish sxs I had thirty years ago was also a "Zabala." I gave it to a friend who used it for ruffed grouse until it was stolen in a burglary. That gun was not adorned as nicely as the pics above. As the original poster is in Holland, he should buy a "Holland & Holland." They make some decent guns, at a slightly higher price point. They have a store nearby in London.

June 19, 2020, 04:14 PM	#14
Romulus Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2001 Location: Kettle Moraine country Posts: 897	__________________ I knew Thomas Jefferson, he was a friend of mine...Governor Clinton, you're no Thomas Jefferson Ti faccio vedere come muore un italiano

June 19, 2020, 06:10 PM	#16
Romulus Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2001 Location: Kettle Moraine country Posts: 897	How sad! Thanks for that info. Rom __________________ I knew Thomas Jefferson, he was a friend of mine...Governor Clinton, you're no Thomas Jefferson Ti faccio vedere come muore un italiano

June 20, 2020, 02:44 AM	#17
Sam58 Junior Member Join Date: May 12, 2014 Location: Netherlands Posts: 5	Thanks for all this information guys, impressive and helpful. I got the gun from an old friend who stopped hunting. He had the gun for over 30 yrs and no idea about the origins. I will keep it and shot a few rounds now and then. It's pretty accurate. For the clay range I have a Browning b525, simple and fantastic gun. Verstuurd vanaf mijn ANE-LX1 met Tapatalk

June 20, 2020, 05:28 AM	#18
Romulus Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2001 Location: Kettle Moraine country Posts: 897	If the OP from the great state of the Netherlands doesn't mind, I'd like to ask the moderator move this thread to The Harley Nolden Memorial Institute for Firearms Research section, I'd like to enlist some additional knowledge. Thanks, Rom __________________ I knew Thomas Jefferson, he was a friend of mine...Governor Clinton, you're no Thomas Jefferson Ti faccio vedere come muore un italiano

July 31, 2020, 09:32 AM	#20
clang Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2009 Posts: 119	The 12-70 mostly likely stands for 12 gauge, 70mm chambers, so 2 3/4" shells are OK. I believe the 650 kgs is the allowable working pressure rating of 650 kg/cm2, which equates to about 9,250 psi, so no heavy loads is best. 1310 is most likely the weight of the barrels, 1,310 grams. I bet it's a pretty light shotgun - great for field carry. __________________ If the horse don't pull you've got to carry the load.