gun weight and trigger pull

[KingofRockstar]

Just like how heavier guns have less muzzle climb. Does heavy frame pistols like deagle, ar pistols, 8 inch revolvers, mark 23, sawn-off coach guns, etc soak up trigger jerks better than sub-compact models at expense of being unwieldy?

I shot sirt trainers and steel bb gun weighting 8 pounds, the weight of the guns makes no apparent difference in better trigger pull other than steel one is very unwieldy compared to plastic guns

[44 AMP]

"deagle" is something from a video game. It's not a real thing.

If you jerk the trigger, you can pull the gun off enough to miss. Heavy guns or light ones, the same. A light gun and jerking the trigger just means you miss by more...

[kenny53]

Everything depends on the gun.

[TXAZ]

I have a Desert Eagle in .44 Mag, 14" hunting barrel. The mass of the weapon reduces flinches since it has a much greater mass than most handguns, but it is tiring for many people to hold out at an arm's length for very long, reducing their finer control of the weapon for very long.
You can do the Physics and see pretty easily that greater weapon mass reduces the acceleration for a given force but momentum is conserved, regardless of the size of the weapon.

[Brit]

I operated my own training company, for 25 years. Started with revolvers, nearly all Smith & Wessons. Double/Single actions 4" barrels.
Then more or less just Glock 17s.

I was given permission to train Security Officers to protect themselves against threats. After a period of time, he would send two of his Sgts. Examine the teaching and testing systems.

After two months, arrived two Sgts. In Suits, carrying snub-nosed 6 shot Smith and Wesson revolvers. 2 & a half inch barrels.

They both carried writing pads and a few pencils. My normal class size is 8 the range can only accommodate 4 students at a time.
So as there were these two Cops (who thought they were going to take notes?) and I had only 6 students booked in? Because they were the extra two hands! The other 6 students, had never fired a handgun before, ever!

The first weapon they handled first, a revolver minus the cylinder and crane.
But when you pulled the trigger, the hammer came back and fell forward with a click.
Here is how the exercise worked. Give the student the neutered revolver into their strong hand, then have that grip turned into a two-handed hold, I would then put my master eye in front of the sights. And manipulate the revolver, till I had the correct sight picture. Next command PRESS! the trigger, but not allow the sights to move off-target move but keep the trigger moving smoothly, till it fell. The target being my eyeball. Prior to both Sgts. Doing this exercise, their shots were both low and left. At 7M.

Pause.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Brit

After two months, arrived two Sgts. In Suits, carrying snub-nosed 6 shot Smith and Wesson revolvers. 2 & a half inch barrels.

They both carried writing pads and a few pencils. My normal class size is 8 the range can only accommodate 4 students at a time.
So as there were these two Cops (who thought they were going to take notes?)

Did people in your courses not normally take notes? In 29 courses I’ve taken notes in 28 of them. In fact most instructors I’ve had have admonished people if they don’t take notes. Doesn’t have to be an essay, even if just the names of drills or pointers for reference later. I look back at my notes from previous courses every month or so.


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[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Brit

The first weapon they handled first, a revolver minus the cylinder and crane.
But when you pulled the trigger, the hammer came back and fell forward with a click.
Here is how the exercise worked. Give the student the neutered revolver into their strong hand, then have that grip turned into a two-handed hold, I would then put my master eye in front of the sights. And manipulate the revolver, till I had the correct sight picture. Next command PRESS! the trigger, but not allow the sights to move off-target move but keep the trigger moving smoothly, till it fell. The target being my eyeball. Prior to both Sgts. Doing this exercise, their shots were both low and left. At 7M.

This sounds like an early version of what some instructors call the “wall drill”.
https://pistol-training.com/archives/118

But instead of just watching the sights or even aim at a point on a wall you had them aim at your eye with the neutered revolver right in front of your face? And I gather the reason for that was so that you could observe their technique more closely?


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[pete2]

To me it seems the lighter the trigger pull the easier it is to shoot accurately, whether a heavy gun or a light one. A heavier gun is sometimes easier to hold steady.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by KingofRockStar

I shot sirt trainers and steel bb gun weighting 8 pounds, the weight of the guns makes no apparent difference in better trigger pull other than steel one is very unwieldy compared to plastic guns

An 8-pound BB gun?

That doesn't sound like a real thing. My all-steel, full-size 1911 weighs 2 pounds (without ammunition). Hpw can a BB gun weigh four times as much?

[44 AMP]

To me it seems the lighter the trigger pull the easier it is to shoot accurately,

You might think so, and it is true, but only to a point. Lots of people obsess over light triggers when they should be looking for smooth, crisp triggers, with the actual pull weight being a lesser concern.

An uber light trigger can easily result in the gun firing before you intend it to.

I hold the opinion that no semi auto should be fitted with a trigger of less than 3lbs pull weight. Likewise for rifles not shot from a rest. Anything carried loaded and cocked (safety on, of course) should not have a over light trigger pull.

If you're several thousand feet about sea level, in balmy 28 degree weather, having just climbed a 1,500 foot ridge, you don't want a trigger with the pull measured in ounces...nor would I want that in 100degree + humidity working my way through tropical vegetation...

I have a couple guns with sub 1lb triggers. One is a varmint rifle, the other a n SA revolver. Neither gets cocked until immediately before firing. I don't let other people use them without TRAINING them on the gun, including significant dry frire practice.

They're great guns, but I do just as well with 3, 3,5lb triggers, and even heavier if the pull is clean, smooth and the release is crisp.

A 6 or 8lb pull is not a problem if its not stagey, gritty or mushy.

You can create a trigger so light it goes off when you touch it, its something for skilled shooters in special circumstances, not something to hand a beginner.

[pete2]

I agree that a 3 or 3-1/2# trigger is good if smooth and not too long. As for a crisp 6 to 8# being usable, No way for me. If it hits 5# it's gotta be fixed. Under 2 is also a problem for me. I want to at least feel the trigger. Gritty, grungy or skirtchy like a Glock also doesn't work for me.
I can live with a tiny bit of smooth roll(I shoot revolvers Double action).

[KingofRockstar]

An 8-pound BB gun?

That doesn't sound like a real thing. My all-steel, full-size 1911 weighs 2 pounds (without ammunition). Hpw can a BB gun weigh four times as much?

^i mean 8 pound trigger pull

[Brit]

The purpose of my training was to have a person, new to firearms, carry one in a holster, on their person, in a holster safely.
All-day, and every day, if faced with a deadly threat, draw and fire (a double-tap) at least. If faced with more than one assailant, deliver two to each assailant.

Believe it or not, it is not that hard. Keep it simple, and lots of reps!
The average class size at a Police Academy might be 40 students. With two or three Instructors. The only range I could rent (Price and availability) was called South Peel. 20M long, 6M? wide. But it was as close to being ideal, as I could have wished for. A little way out of Toronto, in Ontario Canada.
I ran that for 25 years, trained about 500 students a year, both new hires, and refresher programs, once a year. Over a couple of years, I trained a few Instructors, my Diplowas were seen in a lot of places. Including the Canadian Army. Maximum students on the line at once 4. The four not shooting picked up brass, the shooters patched targets. I designed my own target, to more closely follow the dimensions of a human being. And lend its self to score easily. Using the IPSC full-sized torso target. That had a 6" square head. Then below the line showing the head separately, but then continuing down another 12," the chest. The arms were the outside 3".
Scoreing= Head and chest 5points. Belly? 4 points. Arms 2 points.
If all went shots hit the 5 zones, 100% 100 points. Must score 90 points, only allowed I miss.
Miss once, retry. 6 shots at 15M 12 Shots at 7M 2 shots, headshots, at 6'.

I was a member of the Board of the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors. From 1984 till 2004 when my wife and I moved to my Sons home in Orlando and followed the correct procedure to become US Citizens. Me first, then my wife. Sponsered by my Son.

Teaching was an immensely satisfying job! I loved it.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Brit

The purpose of my training was to have a person, new to firearms, carry one in a holster, on their person, in a holster safely.
All-day, and every day, if faced with a deadly threat, draw and fire (a double-tap) at least. If faced with more than one assailant, deliver two to each assailant.

Believe it or not, it is not that hard. Keep it simple, and lots of reps!
The average class size at a Police Academy might be 40 students. With two or three Instructors. The only range I could rent (Price and availability) was called South Peel. 20M long, 6M? wide. But it was as close to being ideal, as I could have wished for. A little way out of Toronto, in Ontario Canada.
I ran that for 25 years, trained about 500 students a year, both new hires, and refresher programs, once a year. Over a couple of years, I trained a few Instructors, my Diplowas were seen in a lot of places. Including the Canadian Army. Maximum students on the line at once 4. The four not shooting picked up brass, the shooters patched targets. I designed my own target, to more closely follow the dimensions of a human being. And lend its self to score easily. Using the IPSC full-sized torso target. That had a 6" square head. Then below the line showing the head separately, but then continuing down another 12," the chest. The arms were the outside 3".
Scoreing= Head and chest 5points. Belly? 4 points. Arms 2 points.
If all went shots hit the 5 zones, 100% 100 points. Must score 90 points, only allowed I miss.
Miss once, retry. 6 shots at 15M 12 Shots at 7M 2 shots, headshots, at 6'.

I was a member of the Board of the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors. From 1984 till 2004 when my wife and I moved to my Sons home in Orlando and followed the correct procedure to become US Citizens. Me first, then my wife. Sponsered by my Son.

Teaching was an immensely satisfying job! I loved it.

That’s certainly an accomplishment and definitely something to be proud of.

You didn’t answer the two questions I asked, at least not directly.

I get that this instruction was to introduce a new person to firearms. The reason I asked about note taking was it seemed odd to me that you seemed surprised (it’s hard to judge feelings in text) that the two police officers had notepads. To me note taking is pretty normal and instructors often seem to regard it as a sign of dedication. At the same time I’m a visual learner and it helps for me to write things down as I don’t remember auditory instructions very well, so that’s my own bias.

As for having students point an inert firearm at your face, again that’s something that just seemed odd. I fully understand that the firearm in question was incapable of firing a cartridge. I’m still relatively confident that if I suggested say removing the firing pin from an actual firearm and then pointing that firearm at the face of one of my instructors they’d be dubious of the need to do such and in the reverse situation I’d feel a bit uncomfortable, even knowing the firearm is inert.

My comments weren’t meant to question your credibility. They were because I was trying to understand the reasoning behind your statements. The reality is you were training people at a time when I was, at least for some of those years, playing with blocks. What is standard in training changes over time. I’ve seen it myself in just the decade plus that I’ve taken training courses. I find it interesting to know what was trained in the past and the reasoning behind it. It helps me understand how instruction has changed and perhaps the reasons why. There also might be lessons that were lost that would be worth knowing.


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[Brit]

Hi Tunnel Rat.
One thing that makes the Revolver with cylinder and crane removed ideal for pointing in my eye? It can not obviously discharge, at all! No way. But a missing fireinpin? No way would I allow anyone to point that weapon at me?

I had the two Sgts. unload the duty rounds from their revolvers, and speed loaders, and load up with my reloads. Every time I dropped in on the boss, downtown, we went out for lunch. I was not allowed to pay for it! So we had to flip a coin. I nearly always lost. But that was OK.

Next time after they (the Sgts) came on the course, I was informed that they told the Boss, they had learned more in a day, than the 22 years that they had been on the OPP Police Force. Both scored the max. 100%. Received one of my collar pins too! Their focus was one and a half inches over the sights! Both of them.
I carried my reloads in milk jugs, everyone would fire just over 100 rounds, in the exercises, then 20 rounds in the test.

Reference my taking training courses? I took one, had to take a class with the Glock Instructor, Peter Tarly, in order to be employed by Glock of Smyrna GA.
During the sale of the 7,000 Glock pistols to Toronto Police Force.

He kept me back, on the last day of the class, so he could shoot against me to push the envelope, speed-wise? Nice chap.

I was staying in the same Hotel he was, so he drove me to and from the Glock facility.

[TunnelRat]

The point about the revolver is a fair one. I used firing pin as an example thinking of a semi auto as frankly I don’t see revolvers in classes (despite myself learning to shoot with one and despite still loving my 4” Model 19). Even with the magazine removed (I figured that goes without saying) it’s still possible to chamber a round in said pistol, whereas on a revolver in the state you mentioned it’s literally impossible to chamber a round as you’ve removed the chambers. I thought about saying to remove the barrel, but I don’t think the pistol would lock up in that state and you couldn’t then dry fire the pistol as you were doing in your example. So yeah the revolver you mention is more inert than a pistol can likely be.

Thanks for sharing. I don’t know if anyone has ever had you record your life on paper or tape, but you’ve certainly lived an interesting one. If I have as many stories to tell as you do at your age I’ll be very happy and I honestly would read a book with everything you’ve mentioned over the years. Enjoy the new year.

Best,
TR


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[JERRYS.]

many people say a Glock has a heavy stock trigger because they're comparing it to a 1911 et al. most of the time these same people cannot shoot a D/A revolver very well either.

[pete2]

I don't find the Glock pull to be heavy, mine is about 4-1/2#, this would be okay for a carry gun, it's the roughness that bothers me. If it could be made smooth it would actually be good for me.

[Brit]

Pete.
My carry Glock 19 is that same 4.5lbs pull. Gen 4. The slide is blemish-free, extended slide lock (release!) and the flush fit butt plug. I have shot thousands of rounds in IDPA monthly matches. The only breakage, shooting my last refresher match! The extended slide release broke (I had it for years) a nice new Glock factory part replaced it.
All you can really say about a Glock trigger? It is a Glock trigger. You get used to it. Nothing can beat a tuned 1911 trigger job, done by a US Gunsmith. But my love is 9mm.
So Glock 19 it is. And when you draw a pistol from your holster, in a life-threatening situation, first and foremost, it has to go BANG! And my Gen 4 does just that.

[HistoryJunky]

I dont have the same amount of time in shooting as a lot of members here.

What I can say is that at least for me, every gun I shoot is a new experience.

I have pistols that I have owned for years that I don't shoot that well. I have owned a CZ P07 where the trigger stacks pretty bad before it breaks in double action.

After 4 to 5 years of practice I still don't shoot the gun well in double action. SA on the other hand is fine.

Likewise, I had never owned a striker pistol for quite some time. I only own 1 right now. I have owned about 5 different Glock models and couldn't shoot any of them well.

I guess this was a long winded way of me saying that to me, every gun is different. What it takes for each person to shoot it well might be something different. YMMV.

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[dyl]

Brit, you said

Their focus was one and a half inches over the sights! Both of them.

What does that mean? Were the students practicing point shooting and focusing their eyes on the target rather than the sight? Flash sight picture?