35 Remington with 357 bullets

[308Loader]

Inspired by a post I saw here a while back I thought this might be fun to try. Turns out it was a hoot! This combo for me has no real application other than plinking steel at 50yrsd.

Back story is… long ago, before Cabela’s turned into Bass Pro they had a bargain cave. Found a box of Berry’s 124gr RN (or so the label said) at a discounted price. Brought them home to find what was in the box was 125gr .358 dia flat point not .355 RN. Not having a 38 or 357 pistol they got shelfed. Read a post where a guy loaded some 357 bullets with trail boss in a 35 rem, had a why didn’t I think of that moment. After all the 35 cal bullet is .358 dia (at least the ones I measured) same as the useless bullets I bought. Having a can of trail boss, some lager rifle primers left, and 250 bullets I cant shoot out of my 9 (have read you can, not willing to try.) I gave it a go. Rang a steel 11x22 plate at 50yrds with ease, bullets hit hard enough to disintegrate on impact. Very little recoil, grinning ear to ear

[308Loader]

Now the after action questions. Is this a bad idea, hard on the rifle or barrel? Cant think of why it would be but my OCD says to ask the community. Any one with quick load that might be able to approximate velocity? Didn’t bring chronograph this trip, only loaded 5 rounds to test the theory. Used the Hodgdon load method for trail boss, think I went light on the max charge. Estimated the bullet seating depth to meet the shoulder of the case, pretty sure I came up short. Loads were as follows:

Rifle – Marlin 336 lever action. Single loaded all cases, very light crimp on bullet.
Bullet – Berry’s 125gr flat nose plated bullet .358 Dia, COL 2.238
Primer – CCI 200 large rifle
Charge weight 9.3 to 12.9 in one gr increment. All went bang and PING on the plate. Feel like this was a little low, will rework if needed.

[NoSecondBest]

I know a few different people who load their 35 REM’s with pistol bullets for deer hunting. They shoot very well and harvesting a deer with one isn’t anything new. I have loading manuals here that provide loads with pistol bullets. Example, old Speer #9 manual shows several loads.

[Crankylove]

I’m no help with the .35 Remington, but have loaded 125 and 158 grain pistol bullets in my .358 Winchester.

I’ve used trail boss, and worked up loads from some older manuals I found online using normal rifle powders.

They were too short to feed from the magazine in my Ruger bolt action, had to single load them, but otherwise worked fine for a plinking/rabbit load.

Just remember, they are a pistol bullet, and depending on what powder, and charge weight you stuff behind them, you may be pushing past their effective velocity envelope. I wouldn’t use them for any big game hunting, but for jack rabbits and soda cans they worked fine for me.

[Unclenick]

308Loader,

Have you looked at the SAAMI drawings for 35 Remington? The groove diameter is 0.357" not 0.355". {Edit: Looks like I misread your post, and the .355's mentioned were for a 9mm.} The bullet diameter spec is 0.356" to 0.359", 0.357" to 0.358" is normal for this cartridge. You have what's best. Nothing to worry about.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

308Loader,

Have you looked at the SAAMI drawings for 35 Remington? The groove diameter is 0.357", not 0.355".

Just an update, the groove diameter specification is 0.357 to 0.359.

[mgulino]

308, I think that original post was mine. Loaded some 158 gr round noses with TB. They were fairly accurate at 50 yards. Didn’t try any further. I think they shot better with a 90% load of TB.

[308Loader]

mgulino, you are correct sir. Thank you for that, gave this lonely box of bullets a purpose.

[308Loader]

NoSecondBest, I will have to look for the spear #9. what powders were used?

NVM, just bought it on amazon... #9 was published in 1974, that makes it as old as me! Now thats funny right there!

[Unclenick]

308Loader,

Beware old data. Powders have changed sources, primers have changed, and a lot of brass has changed. A lot of the old manuals were developed by watching for pressure signs and pressure was never measured. This is why some, like Speer, have a reputation for hot loads. You want to doublecheck against modern data before relying on them.


74A95,

Yep, that's the official spec, but barrels are funny. The best bet is always to slug your bore and see what you actually have. The way to tell what diameter the manufacturers will generally target is to scroll down near the bottom of the standard to find the test barrel groove diameter, and for 350 Remington and all the other rifle cartridge 35s with no non-zero third decimal place digits in their names, it is 0.357".

[NoSecondBest]

NoSecondBest, I will have to look for the spear #9. what powders were used?

308Loader, Unclenick is correct about “old data” and how things change. There are a lot of new powders, etc out there today. In all fairness though, the three powders listed in the Speer loading manual are still quite common IMR powders available today and Speer offers three levels of suggested charge weights to select from. If you decided to try any of them, start with the lowest charge weight for two reasons: first, pressure as suggested by Unclenick. Second, they are loads for pistol bullets. I know for a fact that the best handgun bullets available won’t perform on deer sized game when pushed to velocities over 2,200 FPS. Bullets begin to fragment at those velocities and above. They just aren’t designed to work at those velocities. Still, they are quite effective if used in a velocity range where they stay together. Do some more research before you do anything. I’m not a proponent of “pushing the envelope” where safety is concerned. Be safe.

[bamaranger]

My old Speer manual lists loads with 125/140/158 gr bullets .357 bullets for the .35 Rem. I'm reluctant to post data as I am unsure what Forum policy might be on such dated material. But...

it's been done, done by a respected outfit, and (old) data exists.

[44 AMP]

The powders listed in the Speer #9 for 125gr are 3031 and 4198.
For the 140 and 158gr are 3031 and 4895
cases are R-P
primers are Fed 210 and CCI 250
test gun was a Marlin336 20" barrel

Max listed velocity for the 125 was in the 2500fps range, in the 2400s for the 140 and 158s.

These are NOT plinking/small game loads and the bullets are seriously over driven at max velocities.

Using pistol bullets in the .35Rem for "gallery" and small game loads with a light charge of powder producing pistol speeds is an old, time honored tradition, and sometimes even useful if your rifle shoots them well. (not all do) The loads given in the Speer #9 are a long way above that.

Specialty loads like using pistol bullets for plinkers and small game are not what most people are looking for, and so are rarely listed in current loading manuals or online.

This does not mean there is no data, or no safe loads, only that most folks listing data focus on full power ammo and don't bother testing or listing specialty loads like that.

[Unclenick]

9 grains of Unique or TrailBoss should be in the 1400-1600 fps range with a 125-grain bullet, depending on barrel length.

[308Loader]

For a plated 125gr bullet, what would the recommended max velocity be? Quick loogle search says 1200 fps. Do you all concur with that speed? Using Nicks quick calculation (with many missing variables I’m sure. Thank you sir for the estimation.) My lowest charge weight breaks that envelope. The higher end of the charge weight (12.9) shot pretty good but maybe too fast? Just plinking with this one, have other tools that will perform better for real world applications.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by 308Loader

For a plated 125gr bullet, what would the recommended max velocity be? Quick loogle search says 1200 fps. Do you all concur with that speed? Using Nicks quick calculation (with many missing variables I’m sure. Thank you sir for the estimation.) My lowest charge weight breaks that envelope. The higher end of the charge weight (12.9) shot pretty good but maybe too fast? Just plinking with this one, have other tools that will perform better for real world applications.

What does the bullet manufacturer suggest for a speed limit on their bullets?

[zplinker]

What a fun combination that was, years ago. I had a couple Rem. 760's, in 35 Rem., so played with a variety of loads. Cast 200 gr. bullets shot pretty well, but the most fun was with Sierra 100 (?)gr. Blitz. No records of the data we developed, but they chronographed at just over 2900. Cottontail rabbits hit with this load would simply disappear. Sitting under a tree on a snowbank, the front half of the rabbit would simply not be there. Not in the tree, not on the snowbank...just gone, like vaporized. Then my kids grew up, maybe I did too, and the guns were sold.

[P Flados]

CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

Note that I would not expect good results with plated bullets pushed too fast. Otherwise, they should work fine for plinking use.

I did not see a barrel length. I guessed 20" for a lever gun & asked Quickload to give me a table of charges vs velocity. Note also I used a cast bullet as QL does not have the bullets used by the OP.

Cartridge          : .35 Rem.
Bullet             : .358, 125, LEE 358-125-RF
Useable Case Capaci: 46.258 grain H2O = 3.003 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.250 inch = 57.15 mm
Barrel Length      : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder             : IMR TrailBoss

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 4.167% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Note the loads in red are not considered safe by Hodgdon.

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-41.7   49     7.00   1187     391    7767    864    100.0    2.118
-37.5   52     7.50   1234     423    8649    918    100.0    2.030
-33.3   56     8.00   1280     455    9571    972    100.0    1.950
-29.2   59     8.50   1323     486   10533   1025    100.0    1.878
-25.0   63     9.00   1366     518   11532   1079    100.0    1.812
-20.8   66     9.50   1407     549   12570   1132    100.0    1.745
-16.7   70    10.00   1447     581   13645   1184    100.0    1.681
-12.5   73    10.50   1486     613   14756   1237    100.0    1.623
-08.3   77    11.00   1524     644   15904   1289    100.0    1.570
-04.2   80    11.50   1561     676   17088   1340    100.0    1.521
+00.0   84    12.00   1597     708   18307   1391    100.0    1.476
+04.2   87    12.50   1633     740   19563   1442    100.0    1.434
+08.3   90    13.00   1667     772   20855   1493    100.0    1.395
+12.5   94    13.50   1702     804   22183   1543    100.0    1.359
+16.7   97    14.00   1735     836   23547   1593    100.0    1.325
+20.8  101    14.50   1768     868   24948   1642    100.0    1.293

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     84    12.00   1607     717   19878   1379    100.0    1.437
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     84    12.00   1584     696   16511   1408    100.0    1.528

[T. O'Heir]

There's 180 grain FP .358" .35 Rem data on Hodgdon's site. The daft part is that their 180 grain hand gun load was supposedly a No$ler Partition.
"...a plated 125..." Uses cast bullet data. Kind if doubt you'll find any for the .35 Rem. Try a Lyman manual though.

[Unclenick]

CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

Originally Posted by P Flados

Note that I would not expect good results with plated bullets pushed too fast.  Otherwise, they should work fine for plinking use.

I did not see a barrel length.  I guessed 20" for a lever gun & asked Quickload to give me a table of charges vs. velocity.  Note also I used a cast bullet as QL does not have the bullets used by the OP.



	
	

Cartridge          : .35 Rem.
Bullet             : .358, 125, LEE 358-125-RF
Useable Case Capaci: 46.258 grain H2O = 3.003 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.250 inch = 57.15 mm
Barrel Length      : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder             : IMR TrailBoss

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 4.167% of a nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-41.7   49     7.00   1187     391    7767    864    100.0    2.118
-37.5   52     7.50   1234     423    8649    918    100.0    2.030
-33.3   56     8.00   1280     455    9571    972    100.0    1.950
-29.2   59     8.50   1323     486   10533   1025    100.0    1.878
-25.0   63     9.00   1366     518   11532   1079    100.0    1.812
-20.8   66     9.50   1407     549   12570   1132    100.0    1.745
-16.7   70    10.00   1447     581   13645   1184    100.0    1.681
-12.5   73    10.50   1486     613   14756   1237    100.0    1.623
-08.3   77    11.00   1524     644   15904   1289    100.0    1.570
-04.2   80    11.50   1561     676   17088   1340    100.0    1.521
+00.0   84    12.00   1597     708   18307   1391    100.0    1.476
+04.2   87    12.50   1633     740   19563   1442    100.0    1.434
+08.3   90    13.00   1667     772   20855   1493    100.0    1.395
+12.5   94    13.50   1702     804   22183   1543    100.0    1.359
+16.7   97    14.00   1735     836   23547   1593    100.0    1.325
+20.8  101    14.50   1768     868   24948   1642    100.0    1.293

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     84    12.00   1607     717   19878   1379    100.0    1.437
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     84    12.00   1584     696   16511   1408    100.0    1.528

Note that some of those go outside the range Hodgdon specifies for TrailBoss rifle loads. Nothing below 70% loading density and nothing above 100% loading density. The instructions are in the paragraphs before the table here. So, 10 grains to 14.3 grains, assuming QuickLOAD's bulk density matches the lot you buy.

Please note that we now require the standard warning to be inserted when posting QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool results. Those low loads and the slightly compressed one, which Hodgdon says should not be used with this powder, are examples of why. I have put the warning into the original post.


I would not get excited about exceeding recommended velocities. They are specific to the bullet's most common applications, which, for a 125-grain 0.357" bullet will be 38 and .357 revolvers with barrels in the 4 to 6-inch range. What actually causes trouble for a soft bullet is too much pressure. The maker should, IMHO, give a maximum peak pressure but know most people can't measure that, so they don't. But they could give you a barrel length associated with the velocity limit they recommend, so you can figure out what is typical for it.

The late Richard Lee went into some detail documenting the effect of deformation levels of pressure on rifle accuracy (Lee's Modern Reloading, Second edition, Chapter 10, pp 129-139), and his system of choosing an appropriate pressure (less a 10% safety margin) practically speaking, boils down to multiplying the bullet BHN by 1280 to get a maximum pressure to load to.

Within limits, the velocity produced by a load will increase with barrel length. The fact the resulting velocity exceeds the one the manufacturer provides for the bullet doesn't mean the bullet can't take it. It just means you aren't using it in its commonly expected firearm type.