KAR98 Mauser Markings/info needed

cricco · January 9, 2009, 09:41 AM

Greetings everyone. I have come here seeking advice from you Mauser experts. I am seeking info on a recently aquired 1942 (I think) K98 Mauser rifle. It has several markings that I cannot find info for, such as the "CR" marking on the bolt. It also has 5 very creepy looking hash marks on the stock, which I can only guess are representative of 5 lives lost during the war. If anyone could give me ANY info on this rifle as well as it's approximate value I would be appreciative. Also curious, would these hash marks ruin the value of the weapon? Thanks for any help. I'm new here, but this forum seems to be home to many very knowledgable folks.

PetahW · January 9, 2009, 10:48 AM

Depending upon it's serial number, your "42" code Mauser was made by Mauser AG, Oberndorf, Germany between 1938 & 1940.

http://www.mauser98k.internetdsl.pl/kodyen.html

.

Vergeltung · January 9, 2009, 01:06 PM

that sure is an interesting one. that's a combination of markings I have never seen before. try posting your question & pics here:

http://mausercentral.com/forum/index.php

those guys might be able to shed some additional light on it. good luck!

Darren007 · January 9, 2009, 03:23 PM

"CE" is the manufacture code JP Sauer and Son. 42 is the year it was manufactured (1942).

The cursive lower case "CE" marked on your rifle was changed mid-43, to a normal upper case "CE"

Wheres the "cr" on the bolt your referring to?

cricco · January 9, 2009, 03:29 PM

The CR I reffered to is located right smack in the center of the reciever, just ahead of the rear sight. I didn't think it was a Ce....but maybe.

PetahW · January 9, 2009, 06:59 PM

Interesting - Here's the table from Ludwig Olsen's book:

Code / Manufacturer
ar = Mauser-Werke AG, Werk Borsigwalde, Berlin-Borsigwalde, Eichborndamm
ax = Feinmechanische Werke GmbH, Erfurt, Altonaerstr.
bcd = Gustloff Werke, Werk Wiemar, Weimar
bcd/ar= Dual code; denotes manufacture jointly by Gustloff Werke in Weimar, and Mauser-Werke AG, Berlin
bnz = Steyr-Daimler-Puch AG, Werk Steyr, Steyr, Austria
byf = Mauser-Werke AG, Oberndorf a./N
ce = J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl
dot = Waffenwerke Bruenn AG, Brno, Czechoslovakia
dou = Waffenwerke Bruenn AG, Werk Bystrica
duv = Berlin-Luebecker Maschinenfabriken, Werk Luebeck
svw = Late code for Mauser-Werke AG, Oberndorf a./N
swp = Late code for Waffenwerke Bruenn AG, Brno, Czechoslovakia
S/27 = Erfurter Maschinenfabrik (ERMA); came under same management as Feinmechanische Werke GmbH
S/27G = Erfurter Maschinenfabrik (ERMA); came under same management as Feinmechanische Werke GmbH
S/42 = Mauser-Werke AG, Oberndorf a./N, early code
S/42G = Mauser-Werke AG, Oberndorf a./N, production in 1935
S/42K = Mauser-Werke AG, Oberndorf a./N, production in 1934
S/147 = J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl
S/147G = J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl
S/147K = J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl
S/237 = Berlin-Luebecker Maschinenfabriken, Werk Luebeck
S243 = Mauser-Werke AG, Werk Borsigwalde, Berlin-Borsigwalde, Eichborndamm
S243G = Mauser-Werke AG, Werk Borsigwalde, Berlin-Borsigwalde, Eichborndamm
27 = Erfurter Maschinenfabrik (ERMA); came under same management as Feinmechanische Werke GmbH
42 = Mauser-Werke AG, Oberndorf a./N, early code
147 = J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl
237 = Berlin-Luebecker Maschinenfabriken, Werk Luebeck
243 = Mauser-Werke AG, Werk Borsigwalde, Berlin-Borsigwalde, Eichborndamm
337 = Gustloff Werke, Werk Weimar, Weimar
660 = Steyr-Daimler Puch, Steyr, Austria
945 = Waffenwerke Bruenn AG, Brno, Czechoslova

Tamara · January 9, 2009, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cricco

The CR I reffered to is located right smack in the center of the reciever, just ahead of the rear sight. I didn't think it was a Ce....but maybe.

That's a lower-case cursive "ce". J.P. Sauer & Sohn.

If it had been an Oberndorf gun, the "42" would have been up where the letters are and the mfg. date would have been where the "42" is.

James K · January 10, 2009, 12:57 AM

The rifle serial number is 268r. I am not sure if there are two serial numbers on the bolt and bolt sleeve or only one, but in any case the bolt doesn't match the rifle. That is not a low number. Serial numbers started with 1, went to 9999, then 1a to 9999a, 1b to 9999b, and so on.

A mismatched bolt is not uncommon. When German rifles were captured, it was the practice for American GIs to remove the bolts, then throw the rifles in one pile and the bolts in another. That way, a German POW who tried to escape couldn't just pick up a functional rifle. When GIs rotating back were allowed to take rifles from storage (very few "bring back" rifles were actually captured in combat - a soldier couldn't carry two rifles around) they got a rifle and a bolt, and no time to hunt around for a match.

Do the notches represent "kills"? Probably.

Jim

Tamara · January 10, 2009, 06:53 AM

Older rifles like that always make me ponder.

They could have been in & out of "the system" several different times since 1968. One wonders just how many different ways the "make", "model", and "serial number" have been listed on various bound books and 4473's...

Tom2 · January 10, 2009, 10:12 AM

If it is a vet bringback, it is quite possible it has no history recorded anywhere. I suppose that the GI had to have some "capture" papers issued, at least they did for handguns, except for the smuggled, or maybe mailed home etc. ones, but if some old vet wants to sell his trophy it is quite possible that no trace of it exists on paper anywhere anymore. Not traceable to anyone. I think some of those old guys worry about selling that stuff off, but after the sale the only link to them is word of mouth, nothing written down.

Darren007 · January 10, 2009, 12:04 PM

Quote:

If it is a vet bringback, it is quite possible it has no history recorded anywhere. I suppose that the GI had to have some "capture" papers issued, at least they did for handguns, except for the smuggled, or maybe mailed home etc.

Just for the record...Strictly speaking from a collectors point of view...If a rifle does not have the capture paperwork, it can not be considered a "true" vet bringback.

Now, obviously there are thousands of guns that were brought back that either, never had it, or the paper work was lost or discarded. But, since provenance is paramount. It could have been genuinely brought back or it could simply be one of the hundreds of thousands of matching K98s that were imported in the 50s and 60s. Without that paperwork, theres simply no way to know other than somebodys word.

cricco · January 10, 2009, 02:15 PM

Well, to add a little history to this weapon, I received it from a friend who is deceased. It belonged to his father, who was a WWII veteran (also deceased). My friends father claimed to have shipped the rifle home while he was at war. The bore looks perfect, and the rifle is well greased (not cosmoline). I don't believe it has ever been fired since it was shipped to the USA. I also have a FN Browning High Power, which came from the same source. The barrel and frame also have different serial numbers. Both weapons were obtained from the same time and place.

James K · January 11, 2009, 09:37 PM

Not all commercial imports were marked but the vast majority were. Prior to 1968, the marking will be the one word "GERMANY." After 1968, the rifle will bear the mark of an importer, usually company initials, and the caliber.

If one of those markings is NOT present, the odds are very good that the rifle was a vet "bringback". No "bringbacks" will have those stampings.

Jim

Vergeltung · January 12, 2009, 09:02 AM

mine has those markings on the underside of the barrel, in the front. just as you indicate. interesting!!

Darren007 · January 12, 2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Not all commercial imports were marked but the vast majority were. Prior to 1968, the marking will be the one word "GERMANY."

In 25 years of studying and collecting K98s I have never seen a pre-68 import marked in such a way. You got any pics of this?

James K · January 12, 2009, 02:41 PM

Prior to 1968, the only "import mark" was the Country of Origin (COO) mark required of all imported goods. The GCA '68 and the associated regulations changed the rule for firearms, requiring the name and address of the importer (can be abbreviated) and the caliber. This is to allow the firearm to be traced back to the importer the same way as commercial arms. This grew out of the difficulty of tracing the Kennedy assassination rifle in 1963. (Imported commercial arms normally have both the manufacturer's and importer's name and address, and the caliber, applied at the factory.)

The COO marking on milsurp guns imported pre-'68 was not always applied. That was due to simple human error when dealing with hundreds of thousands of guns, but it was rare. U.S.-made items coming back did not require marking, but I have seen Savage-made No. 4 rifles marked "ENGLAND"; the importer's workers were not gun experts.

As to K.98k's, I have seen only a few pre-68 imports with no marking. I have two, and both have the "GERMANY" mark on the front of the trigger guard just ahead of the magazine floorplate. The marks are not very big, but they are there. There was no rule about where to apply the mark, and the location is not consistent. I have seen the mark on the barrel, back of the rear sight; on the rear sight base; on the barrel ahead of the stock; on the receiver ring; and on the bayonet lug. If you know that your K.98k's were commercially imported, check again; I think most will be marked.

Jim

cricco · January 13, 2009, 01:04 AM

There do not appear to be any importer makings on this rifle. It does not say "germany" on it anywhere either.

Tikirocker · January 13, 2009, 05:47 AM

Don't hold your breath regarding the authenticity of the hash marks in the stock .

Darren007 · January 13, 2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

The COO marking on milsurp guns imported pre-'68 was not always applied. That was due to simple human error when dealing with hundreds of thousands of guns, but it was rare

.

Sorry Jim, not to belabor the point....but I've never seen a pre 68 import marked in such a fashion...specificly K98s. Now I believe everything your saying and I cant really speak for other mil-surps imported during those years, I just dont think it was as common as you believe.

Quote:

Don't hold your breath regarding the authenticity of the hash marks in the stock .

+1 Tikirocker

Or as we like to say in the collector world..."Buy the gun, NOT the story".

James K · January 13, 2009, 04:15 PM

Hi, Darren007,

I don't know what you call "common" but it WAS required by law and I watched Interarms workers apply those stamps in a bonded warehouse. Being human, I am sure they missed some, or some were more heavily stamped than others, but it seems odd that none you have ever seen were stamped. If you are sure that they were imported (and not GI bringbacks sold later), you might check again on the rifles you now own.

I will again note that the stamps are not in any particular place, with different importers marking them in different places.

Jim

January 9, 2009, 09:41 AM	#1
cricco Junior Member Join Date: January 9, 2009 Posts: 4	KAR98 Mauser Markings/info needed Greetings everyone. I have come here seeking advice from you Mauser experts. I am seeking info on a recently aquired 1942 (I think) K98 Mauser rifle. It has several markings that I cannot find info for, such as the "CR" marking on the bolt. It also has 5 very creepy looking hash marks on the stock, which I can only guess are representative of 5 lives lost during the war. If anyone could give me ANY info on this rifle as well as it's approximate value I would be appreciative. Also curious, would these hash marks ruin the value of the weapon? Thanks for any help. I'm new here, but this forum seems to be home to many very knowledgable folks.

January 9, 2009, 01:06 PM	#3
Vergeltung Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Location: near NYC, USA Posts: 292	that sure is an interesting one. that's a combination of markings I have never seen before. try posting your question & pics here: http://mausercentral.com/forum/index.php those guys might be able to shed some additional light on it. good luck! __________________ *Tuitio Fidei et Obsequium Pauperum*

January 10, 2009, 06:53 AM	#9
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	Jim, Older rifles like that always make me ponder. They could have been in & out of "the system" several different times since 1968. One wonders just how many different ways the "make", "model", and "serial number" have been listed on various bound books and 4473's... __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

January 10, 2009, 10:12 AM	#10
Tom2 Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 5,676	If it is a vet bringback, it is quite possible it has no history recorded anywhere. I suppose that the GI had to have some "capture" papers issued, at least they did for handguns, except for the smuggled, or maybe mailed home etc. ones, but if some old vet wants to sell his trophy it is quite possible that no trace of it exists on paper anywhere anymore. Not traceable to anyone. I think some of those old guys worry about selling that stuff off, but after the sale the only link to them is word of mouth, nothing written down. __________________ Your gun is like your nose, it is just wrong for someone else to pick it for you!

January 12, 2009, 09:02 AM	#14
Vergeltung Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Location: near NYC, USA Posts: 292	mine has those markings on the underside of the barrel, in the front. just as you indicate. interesting!! __________________ *Tuitio Fidei et Obsequium Pauperum*

January 9, 2009, 10:48 AM	#2
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	Depending upon it's serial number, your "42" code Mauser was made by Mauser AG, Oberndorf, Germany between 1938 & 1940. http://www.mauser98k.internetdsl.pl/kodyen.html .

January 9, 2009, 03:23 PM	#4
Darren007 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,053	"CE" is the manufacture code JP Sauer and Son. 42 is the year it was manufactured (1942). The cursive lower case "CE" marked on your rifle was changed mid-43, to a normal upper case "CE" Wheres the "cr" on the bolt your referring to?

January 9, 2009, 03:29 PM	#5
cricco Junior Member Join Date: January 9, 2009 Posts: 4	The CR I reffered to is located right smack in the center of the reciever, just ahead of the rear sight. I didn't think it was a Ce....but maybe.

January 9, 2009, 06:59 PM	#6
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	Interesting - Here's the table from Ludwig Olsen's book: Code / Manufacturer ar = Mauser-Werke AG, Werk Borsigwalde, Berlin-Borsigwalde, Eichborndamm ax = Feinmechanische Werke GmbH, Erfurt, Altonaerstr. bcd = Gustloff Werke, Werk Wiemar, Weimar bcd/ar= Dual code; denotes manufacture jointly by Gustloff Werke in Weimar, and Mauser-Werke AG, Berlin bnz = Steyr-Daimler-Puch AG, Werk Steyr, Steyr, Austria byf = Mauser-Werke AG, Oberndorf a./N ce = J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl dot = Waffenwerke Bruenn AG, Brno, Czechoslovakia dou = Waffenwerke Bruenn AG, Werk Bystrica duv = Berlin-Luebecker Maschinenfabriken, Werk Luebeck svw = Late code for Mauser-Werke AG, Oberndorf a./N swp = Late code for Waffenwerke Bruenn AG, Brno, Czechoslovakia S/27 = Erfurter Maschinenfabrik (ERMA); came under same management as Feinmechanische Werke GmbH S/27G = Erfurter Maschinenfabrik (ERMA); came under same management as Feinmechanische Werke GmbH S/42 = Mauser-Werke AG, Oberndorf a./N, early code S/42G = Mauser-Werke AG, Oberndorf a./N, production in 1935 S/42K = Mauser-Werke AG, Oberndorf a./N, production in 1934 S/147 = J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl S/147G = J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl S/147K = J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl S/237 = Berlin-Luebecker Maschinenfabriken, Werk Luebeck S243 = Mauser-Werke AG, Werk Borsigwalde, Berlin-Borsigwalde, Eichborndamm S243G = Mauser-Werke AG, Werk Borsigwalde, Berlin-Borsigwalde, Eichborndamm 27 = Erfurter Maschinenfabrik (ERMA); came under same management as Feinmechanische Werke GmbH 42 = Mauser-Werke AG, Oberndorf a./N, early code 147 = J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl 237 = Berlin-Luebecker Maschinenfabriken, Werk Luebeck 243 = Mauser-Werke AG, Werk Borsigwalde, Berlin-Borsigwalde, Eichborndamm 337 = Gustloff Werke, Werk Weimar, Weimar 660 = Steyr-Daimler Puch, Steyr, Austria 945 = Waffenwerke Bruenn AG, Brno, Czechoslova

January 10, 2009, 12:57 AM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The rifle serial number is 268r. I am not sure if there are two serial numbers on the bolt and bolt sleeve or only one, but in any case the bolt doesn't match the rifle. That is not a low number. Serial numbers started with 1, went to 9999, then 1a to 9999a, 1b to 9999b, and so on. A mismatched bolt is not uncommon. When German rifles were captured, it was the practice for American GIs to remove the bolts, then throw the rifles in one pile and the bolts in another. That way, a German POW who tried to escape couldn't just pick up a functional rifle. When GIs rotating back were allowed to take rifles from storage (very few "bring back" rifles were actually captured in combat - a soldier couldn't carry two rifles around) they got a rifle and a bolt, and no time to hunt around for a match. Do the notches represent "kills"? Probably. Jim

January 10, 2009, 02:15 PM	#12
cricco Junior Member Join Date: January 9, 2009 Posts: 4	Well, to add a little history to this weapon, I received it from a friend who is deceased. It belonged to his father, who was a WWII veteran (also deceased). My friends father claimed to have shipped the rifle home while he was at war. The bore looks perfect, and the rifle is well greased (not cosmoline). I don't believe it has ever been fired since it was shipped to the USA. I also have a FN Browning High Power, which came from the same source. The barrel and frame also have different serial numbers. Both weapons were obtained from the same time and place.

January 11, 2009, 09:37 PM	#13
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Not all commercial imports were marked but the vast majority were. Prior to 1968, the marking will be the one word "GERMANY." After 1968, the rifle will bear the mark of an importer, usually company initials, and the caliber. If one of those markings is NOT present, the odds are very good that the rifle was a vet "bringback". No "bringbacks" will have those stampings. Jim

January 12, 2009, 02:41 PM	#16
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Prior to 1968, the only "import mark" was the Country of Origin (COO) mark required of all imported goods. The GCA '68 and the associated regulations changed the rule for firearms, requiring the name and address of the importer (can be abbreviated) and the caliber. This is to allow the firearm to be traced back to the importer the same way as commercial arms. This grew out of the difficulty of tracing the Kennedy assassination rifle in 1963. (Imported commercial arms normally have both the manufacturer's and importer's name and address, and the caliber, applied at the factory.) The COO marking on milsurp guns imported pre-'68 was not always applied. That was due to simple human error when dealing with hundreds of thousands of guns, but it was rare. U.S.-made items coming back did not require marking, but I have seen Savage-made No. 4 rifles marked "ENGLAND"; the importer's workers were not gun experts. As to K.98k's, I have seen only a few pre-68 imports with no marking. I have two, and both have the "GERMANY" mark on the front of the trigger guard just ahead of the magazine floorplate. The marks are not very big, but they are there. There was no rule about where to apply the mark, and the location is not consistent. I have seen the mark on the barrel, back of the rear sight; on the rear sight base; on the barrel ahead of the stock; on the receiver ring; and on the bayonet lug. If you know that your K.98k's were commercially imported, check again; I think most will be marked. Jim

January 13, 2009, 01:04 AM	#17
cricco Junior Member Join Date: January 9, 2009 Posts: 4	There do not appear to be any importer makings on this rifle. It does not say "germany" on it anywhere either.

January 13, 2009, 05:47 AM	#18
Tikirocker Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2007 Location: NSW, Australia Posts: 909	Don't hold your breath regarding the authenticity of the hash marks in the stock . __________________ The Lee Enfield forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=27 Surplus Rifle Forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/index.php

January 13, 2009, 04:15 PM	#20
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Darren007, I don't know what you call "common" but it WAS required by law and I watched Interarms workers apply those stamps in a bonded warehouse. Being human, I am sure they missed some, or some were more heavily stamped than others, but it seems odd that none you have ever seen were stamped. If you are sure that they were imported (and not GI bringbacks sold later), you might check again on the rifles you now own. I will again note that the stamps are not in any particular place, with different importers marking them in different places. Jim

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