Avenging Angel Pocket Gun

Clock · October 24, 2016, 03:09 PM

I just discovered this type of gun. Many Mormons cut their handgun barrels to an inch or so to make them more concealable. This was allegedly made popular by Orrin Porter Rockwell, a bodyguard. For whatever reason, Mormons were highly disliked & needed to carry, but also as Christian advocates wanted to keep their weapons low profile.
The appearance of the gun is sort of Sci-Fi. Does anyone know how cutting the barrel affects accuracy & velocity? Would such a gun be useful at say 10 feet?

Trum4n1208 · October 24, 2016, 03:18 PM

Probably not ideal, but if they weren't effective then people wouldn't have used them.

I have a Uberti factory conversion in .44 Colt with two barrels, one a full length, the other cut down to 2 7/8 inches like Dallas Stoudenmire's .44. It's plenty fun to shoot with the short barrel, but I can't speak to its effectiveness. From my knowledge of ballistics, I can safely assume that it wouldn't hit quite as hard. Granted, I sure wouldn't want to get shot with it, and again, we know from accounts that they would be effective enough to stop an attacker.

Avenging Angels are just as cool as can be, aren't they?

Trum4n1208 · October 24, 2016, 03:21 PM

Here's my Avenging Angel/Long Barreled.44.

Clock · October 24, 2016, 03:24 PM

Very cool. Should I win the pic 7 in the Breeders Cup, I'll look into one. This is something I'd like to have but don;t really need.

Trum4n1208 · October 24, 2016, 03:37 PM

No worries, I never planned on getting one. This was a project gun that I wanted to get but figured it would cost a bit too much to be feasible. And then one day I got onto the CAS City forums, checked the classifieds, and there was my project gun, already done and on sale for about $500. Basically, the stars aligned.

If you don't mind muzzle loading revolvers, you can buy some belly guns already made, no work on your part. From the reviews I've read, they're well liked.

noelf2 · October 25, 2016, 07:18 AM

gasmandave just sold two pietta 1851 colt belly guns in .44 cal to members of this forum. I bought one of them. My understanding is they get about 550-600 fps with 30 grain bp load with round balls. Enough to ruin someone's day at close range I expect.

gasmandave · October 25, 2016, 11:59 AM

These guns where truly belly guns. Up close and very personal. Not a hunting or target gun. I sold Noel one the was factory made. The other on I cut the barrel and refitted the front sight and rounded the plow handle grips. I think you can still see the pictures in the for sale postings.

Model12Win · October 25, 2016, 09:27 PM

Those '60 AAs beg for a '51 grip frame.

salvadore · October 25, 2016, 10:55 PM

Rockwell was pretty much a sociopath.

gasmandave · October 27, 2016, 12:11 PM

Yep, I understand he couldn't read or write also.

salvadore · October 27, 2016, 08:53 PM

I'm pretty sure Rockwell killed more Mormans trying to leave the faith than Gentiles. He and Che got good press for whack job murderers.

Stormson · October 27, 2016, 09:04 PM

I have the 1860 counterpart to the 1851 one that Dave sold with the checkered birdshead grip. Got mine from Taylors, I LOVE it! In fact, if it had stayed for sale much longer I was going to HAVE to buy that one as well even though I really couldnt afford to.. Had already told the ol' lady that she could get mad LOL.

I havent had to use mine seriously yet and hope I never do... But I have shot it with 35grs of 777 and a .454 round ball. I have very little doubt, even if an attacker is high, that this little wonder will get the job done.

I should add though that I live pretty remote and there wont be any terror attacks or inner city gang activity here... Worst I'd ever have to deal with is a rabid dog or stray meth head...

In short, I carry mine regularly and I dont feel the least bit outgunned.... Your circumstance, and mileage, may very of course.

rodwhaincamo · October 27, 2016, 10:36 PM

Don't you mean stray dog and rabid meth head? Ha ha!

Radny97 · October 27, 2016, 11:13 PM

Salvadore has no idea what he is talking about. I've read two well documented biographies of Rockwell. Very interesting and complicated person. Not a sociopath. And there's no need to try and advocate some revisionist (read false) history in order to push your current world view. He was the person he was, good and bad, and it's well documented.

Back to the OP, very cool gun. I would love one of these as well as a pepper box.

Stormson · October 27, 2016, 11:34 PM

Hmm.. Just so long as we dont start getting meth head dogs then its all good I guess! LOL

salvadore · October 28, 2016, 08:34 PM

Rad may be right about Porter, it's been years since I read about him, but as I remember he murdered J. Smith's body guard after Smith was killed. He was a Danite, maybe the Danite, Mormon secret police, and drank a lot more than Your run of the mill Mormon. Among Mormons he was known as Brigham Young's hit man. I've read a number of LDS diaries stating how terrified of Danites people were who wanted to quit the Church and leave the valley. My references may not have been Church approved, and he may not have been a technical sociopath, but he was no Christian.

Radny97 · October 28, 2016, 10:51 PM

^^^ that's 85% correct. He was no saint or Christian and quite a drinker but also was a respected law man *at times* with quite a list of folks he brought in on bounty with real crimes making them wanted men, not church related. Other times he absolutely took the law in his own hands and wasn't gentle or good to people.
The things you have wrong are that he was a hit man for Young (no evidence of that) or that he extrajudicially avenged Joseph Smiths murder (no evidence of that). He was definitely involved with the Danites but to be clear the Danites mostly operated in Missouri and Illinois before the Mormons fled to Utah and before Young became so prominent. There's also little to no evidence of any connection between the illegal acts of the Danites and the actual Mormon leaders like Smith or Young. But the Danites were so secretive there's really no reliable evidence on any of their connections or leadership.
But yeah, quite a fascinating personality of the early west. On par with Butch Cassidy and so many other personalities of the old west who lived by their own rules and code of behavior.

October 24, 2016, 03:09 PM	#1
Clock Member Join Date: November 29, 2015 Posts: 77	Avenging Angel Pocket Gun I just discovered this type of gun. Many Mormons cut their handgun barrels to an inch or so to make them more concealable. This was allegedly made popular by Orrin Porter Rockwell, a bodyguard. For whatever reason, Mormons were highly disliked & needed to carry, but also as Christian advocates wanted to keep their weapons low profile. The appearance of the gun is sort of Sci-Fi. Does anyone know how cutting the barrel affects accuracy & velocity? Would such a gun be useful at say 10 feet?

October 25, 2016, 07:18 AM	#6
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	gasmandave just sold two pietta 1851 colt belly guns in .44 cal to members of this forum. I bought one of them. My understanding is they get about 550-600 fps with 30 grain bp load with round balls. Enough to ruin someone's day at close range I expect. __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

October 24, 2016, 03:18 PM	#2
Trum4n1208 Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2013 Posts: 173	Probably not ideal, but if they weren't effective then people wouldn't have used them. I have a Uberti factory conversion in .44 Colt with two barrels, one a full length, the other cut down to 2 7/8 inches like Dallas Stoudenmire's .44. It's plenty fun to shoot with the short barrel, but I can't speak to its effectiveness. From my knowledge of ballistics, I can safely assume that it wouldn't hit quite as hard. Granted, I sure wouldn't want to get shot with it, and again, we know from accounts that they would be effective enough to stop an attacker. Avenging Angels are just as cool as can be, aren't they?

October 24, 2016, 03:24 PM	#4
Clock Member Join Date: November 29, 2015 Posts: 77	Very cool. Should I win the pic 7 in the Breeders Cup, I'll look into one. This is something I'd like to have but don;t really need.

October 24, 2016, 03:37 PM	#5
Trum4n1208 Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2013 Posts: 173	No worries, I never planned on getting one. This was a project gun that I wanted to get but figured it would cost a bit too much to be feasible. And then one day I got onto the CAS City forums, checked the classifieds, and there was my project gun, already done and on sale for about $500. Basically, the stars aligned. If you don't mind muzzle loading revolvers, you can buy some belly guns already made, no work on your part. From the reviews I've read, they're well liked.

October 25, 2016, 11:59 AM	#7
gasmandave Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2012 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 223	These guns where truly belly guns. Up close and very personal. Not a hunting or target gun. I sold Noel one the was factory made. The other on I cut the barrel and refitted the front sight and rounded the plow handle grips. I think you can still see the pictures in the for sale postings.

October 25, 2016, 09:27 PM	#8
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Those '60 AAs beg for a '51 grip frame.

October 25, 2016, 10:55 PM	#9
salvadore Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,282	Rockwell was pretty much a sociopath.

October 27, 2016, 12:11 PM	#10
gasmandave Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2012 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 223	Yep, I understand he couldn't read or write also.

October 27, 2016, 08:53 PM	#11
salvadore Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,282	I'm pretty sure Rockwell killed more Mormans trying to leave the faith than Gentiles. He and Che got good press for whack job murderers.

October 27, 2016, 09:04 PM	#12
Stormson Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2014 Location: Mountains of SouthWest VA. Posts: 193	I have the 1860 counterpart to the 1851 one that Dave sold with the checkered birdshead grip. Got mine from Taylors, I LOVE it! In fact, if it had stayed for sale much longer I was going to HAVE to buy that one as well even though I really couldnt afford to.. Had already told the ol' lady that she could get mad LOL. I havent had to use mine seriously yet and hope I never do... But I have shot it with 35grs of 777 and a .454 round ball. I have very little doubt, even if an attacker is high, that this little wonder will get the job done. I should add though that I live pretty remote and there wont be any terror attacks or inner city gang activity here... Worst I'd ever have to deal with is a rabid dog or stray meth head... In short, I carry mine regularly and I dont feel the least bit outgunned.... Your circumstance, and mileage, may very of course.

October 27, 2016, 10:36 PM	#13
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	Don't you mean stray dog and rabid meth head? Ha ha!

October 27, 2016, 11:13 PM	#14
Radny97 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2015 Posts: 1,021	Salvadore has no idea what he is talking about. I've read two well documented biographies of Rockwell. Very interesting and complicated person. Not a sociopath. And there's no need to try and advocate some revisionist (read false) history in order to push your current world view. He was the person he was, good and bad, and it's well documented. Back to the OP, very cool gun. I would love one of these as well as a pepper box.

October 27, 2016, 11:34 PM	#15
Stormson Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2014 Location: Mountains of SouthWest VA. Posts: 193	Hmm.. Just so long as we dont start getting meth head dogs then its all good I guess! LOL

October 28, 2016, 08:34 PM	#16
salvadore Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,282	Rad may be right about Porter, it's been years since I read about him, but as I remember he murdered J. Smith's body guard after Smith was killed. He was a Danite, maybe the Danite, Mormon secret police, and drank a lot more than Your run of the mill Mormon. Among Mormons he was known as Brigham Young's hit man. I've read a number of LDS diaries stating how terrified of Danites people were who wanted to quit the Church and leave the valley. My references may not have been Church approved, and he may not have been a technical sociopath, but he was no Christian.

October 28, 2016, 10:51 PM	#17
Radny97 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2015 Posts: 1,021	^^^ that's 85% correct. He was no saint or Christian and quite a drinker but also was a respected law man at times with quite a list of folks he brought in on bounty with real crimes making them wanted men, not church related. Other times he absolutely took the law in his own hands and wasn't gentle or good to people. The things you have wrong are that he was a hit man for Young (no evidence of that) or that he extrajudicially avenged Joseph Smiths murder (no evidence of that). He was definitely involved with the Danites but to be clear the Danites mostly operated in Missouri and Illinois before the Mormons fled to Utah and before Young became so prominent. There's also little to no evidence of any connection between the illegal acts of the Danites and the actual Mormon leaders like Smith or Young. But the Danites were so secretive there's really no reliable evidence on any of their connections or leadership. But yeah, quite a fascinating personality of the early west. On par with Butch Cassidy and so many other personalities of the old west who lived by their own rules and code of behavior.