Lost a mag on the job yesterday

bamaranger · February 28, 2010, 10:20 PM

I was conducting a boundary marking and patrol detail on Sat. Beautiful day.
Wood lot type cover, much of it thick and grown up. Imagine rabbit hunting.
My rig was a Bianchi Mil flap holster made for the Sig P220, heavy nylon gun belt, and Bianchi GI type mag pouches, along w/ other defensive gear, but minimal so you can walk distances w/ the stuff.

I busted brush for 3 hrs or so, and quit for lunch. I had a mail run in town to do anyhow. At the diner I realized I was missing a mag from my pistol.

Apparently, brush had gotten behind the grip and tripped the mag release button, and the mag then got snagged at some point and was lost. Basically I had a $600 dollar single shot pistol, on the job. I plunked in one of my spares from the belt. I searched the stretch of boundary for another hour, but no mag.

Lesson: Conduct an inspection of your gear and weapon after exertion or periodically on duty. On another occasion, I lost a spare mag in a rapid exit from a 4WD. Glad I didn't "need" either of these items at the time in question!!!!!

bigghoss · February 28, 2010, 10:25 PM

maybe that's why some people believe that only revolvers are suitable for woods carry. personally that scenario had never occurred to me.

**JohnKSa** · February 28, 2010, 10:50 PM

That's one solution.

European gunmakers have solved this with other approaches such as:

Staying with heel-releases
Using button magazine releases that are not easily activated accidentally (e.g. recessed buttons).
Employing magazine releases that are far enough forward that they are covered by the holster body. (e.g. H&K swing down release on the trigger guard)
Designing semi-autos with magazine brakes that prevent the magazine from falling free even if the release is pressed.
Designing magazines that won't fall free even if the release is pressed.

Here in the U.S. we're apparently far more worried about spending an extra fraction of a second reloading (even though most encounters don't involve a reload) than we are about having our pistols turn into single-shots accidentally...

eldogg4life · March 1, 2010, 08:04 AM

My first gun was a Glock 21 and as I would get out of my car I would often engage the mag release button.

Let me guess, you are a lefty too???

Now I have a Glock 23 and my vehicle is not as low to the ground so I am testing it out to see if the mag will drop out or not.
I once noticed my weapon had no mag while sitting in a pew at church. I almost had a heart attack because I knew if someone found my mag it would become a national emergency. I traced my footsteps and found it in my car between my seat and the door.

My H&K is impossible to deactivate in this manner but then again so is my SA XD9.

The H&K release is deeper under the trigger guard and the XD release in "imbedded" and fits semi flush to the frame. The Glock release protrudes and is therefor more likely to be engage.

Raven concealment (holster manufacturers) told me they can make me a custom holster that covers the mag release button. I will be getting that soon.

Best of luck in the brush!!!!

-eL

45Gunner · March 1, 2010, 09:33 AM

JohnKSa, your post immediately triggers a question, no pun intended. If magazines are designed with a brake or are not easily ejected from the grip, how does one perform an emergency reload? I can see where a tactical reload would not present a huge problem but I can envision a scenario where one must quickly eject a magazine and insert a new one. It is not a pretty picture seeing someone in need of ammo struggling to get the expended mag out.

I carried a .45 thru the jungles of Vietnam and never had an accidental mag ejection. Of course the holster was one with a flap that protected the entire gun so that nothing could snag the trigger or mag release button. I would have to suggest that if one were to do duty in the forest or climbing/crawling thru brush, then perhaps the appropriate full flap holster would be a must.

It's my guess that most of us have more than one type of holster for a particular gun so when the days that forest duty are not on the menu, you could switch to the holster that you normally utilize.

Slopemeno · March 1, 2010, 10:09 AM

There's a number of different techniques for dealing with mags that aren't/don't drop free. The one I was instructed in was to use the heel of the fresh mag to strip the previous magazine in an up/down/in motion.

**JohnKSa** · March 1, 2010, 02:18 PM

Quote:

JohnKSa, your post immediately triggers a question, no pun intended. If magazines are designed with a brake or are not easily ejected from the grip, how does one perform an emergency reload?

They come out very easily, they just don't FALL out on their own. You can very easily pull them free while the release is pressed.

Quote:

I would have to suggest that if one were to do duty in the forest or climbing/crawling thru brush, then perhaps the appropriate full flap holster would be a must.

The OP was using a flap holster like the one in the picture below.

HiBC · March 1, 2010, 02:27 PM

I know I will be criticized for this,oh well.
I recall a few years back I walked into a 7-11 late one night.I noiced an LEO in the store.I noticed he had a top of the line 1911 in his holster.Then I thought"Don't pay too much attention to his handgun,he might figure you want to grab it.And I did my business and went on,then I got in my car and it struck me.His mag well was empty.

I would have discretely advised him had it occured to me sooner I just had other things on my mind.

hoytinak · March 1, 2010, 02:39 PM

I carry a HK P2000 .40 in a Bianchi AccuMold holster at work and about every other time I get out of the vehicle I notice my mag rattling loose in the mag well. It's become habit to slap the mag in the magwell every time I get out of the vehicle now.

bamaranger · March 1, 2010, 06:06 PM

I was using a full flap, mil spec Bianchi holster like the one posted prior.

And I have covered a bunch of ground over the course of a career and never lost a mag from the pistol. (did loose one from a horizontal pouch, switched to vertical carry on off side) Lost a set of cuffs once, the whole pouch ripped from the belt.

Not a lefty, thankfully. Never though about revolvers only for woods guns, but come to think of it, my personal time, off duty ones mostly are.

Gotta carry what your issued. Course the military is detachabe mag everything, and have been for years, but I guess they have more mags about.

"PVT, give me one of your mags".................

tlm225 · March 1, 2010, 09:01 PM

I had that happen to me once. I was a K-9 officer at the time and was performing a search of a wooded area with dense brush and vine. At some point during the search vines got between my body and the gun, releasing the magazine. Unfortunately I didn't discover until after my shift that I was carrying a single shot on duty for about six hours. To this day I have a tendency to reach down and check the magazine in my gun.

Don P · March 2, 2010, 11:39 AM

I would say time to get a different holster. Loose one mag shame on the holster, loose a second mag shame on me for being stupid.

troy_mclure · March 2, 2010, 06:23 PM

I just looked at my blackhawk! serpa holster for my 1911 that i plan on using for a woods gun.

The mag release isn't covered like on all my other holsters, but its tucked under the paddle.

Ill have to experiment and see if this holster is vulnerable to mag loss.

KLRANGL · March 2, 2010, 06:34 PM

haha troy, thank you for putting the '!' at the end of Blackhawk!
Made this blackhawk fanboy happy

I'm inclined to agree with JohnKSa. I chose to get a P7 PSP over the P7M8 because the slightly longer reload time is worth not losing a magazine to a seat belt while concealed carrying.
For those not in the know, the PSP has a heal released mag, while the M8 has the more traditional mag release near the trigger.

I also have never worried about my USPc releasing a mag. It is out of the way, and takes some force to depress.

hoytinak · March 2, 2010, 06:35 PM

Quote:

I just looked at my blackhawk! serpa holster for my 1911 that i plan on using for a woods gun.

The mag release isn't covered like on all my other holsters, but its tucked under the paddle.

Ill have to experiment and see if this holster is vulnerable to mag loss.

Also try not to get that serpa dirty. I've personally had one lock up on me, taking a long, hard time getting the weapon out and seen it happen to a couple others with the serpa. Our company won't let anyone use them any longer due to them being prone to locking up.

troy_mclure · March 3, 2010, 08:31 AM

^

Ive read about it, but the local police supply shop where i bought it has a bucket of sand and a decommissioned glock you can try to jam up in one.

I guess it takes the right combination of gun/grit to freeze it up.

eldogg4life · March 7, 2010, 05:33 AM

I bought a Serpa level 1 retention holster for my Glock 23 and the holster actually does a great job of covering the mag release. I will be running it in a 4 day defensive handgun course later this month and am interested to see how things go. Good luck to everyone.

michael t · March 9, 2010, 01:19 AM

A narrow strip of Duck Tape will keep in place If popped the tape will still keep mag in pistol . Perhaps a lanyard for the mag Remember early 1911's had some mags set up that way Just have one mag for woods/brush duty

TenRing · March 9, 2010, 08:21 PM

bamaranger, I'm glad that you didn't get caught off guard with that single-shot.

JohnKSa nailed it. Guns that are intended for the American market are geared towards speedy reloading rather than security of the load that is already in the gun. I have handled some guns where the magazine actually shoots out of the mag well when the release is pressed. Personally, I'm not worried about speed loading a 10 to 15 round gun if I can just hang on to the rounds that I already have in the gun. The extra second to reload is worth the security of retaining the mag. I would love to buy a Ruger P95, Smith & Wesson 5906 or FNP with heel release.

In general, the revolver does gives me a better sense of security when I'm in the woods for this reason. Six for sure rather than 15 maybe. Plus, the revolver won't get knocked out of battery during a contact shooting.

JohnH1963 · March 9, 2010, 10:45 PM

As many posters here have stated in the past, the Sig Sauer is just not a great gun for duty. Things get snagged, magazines fall out of the well... Its a great gun for the range, but just not one you want to carry around.

The Glock is the be all and end all of carry guns. This just doesnt happen with them. You can throw them on the ground, at the wall and stomp on it, the magazine just isnt coming out.

Mobuck · March 10, 2010, 09:18 PM

stuff happens. I lost an AR mag a couple of weeks back while coyote hunting. Lost balance and fell into knee deep snow. Apparently, while getting up and trying to keep muzzle out of snow I bumped the release. Returned to the 2 places I fell that day and found mag in the second spot. Paint your mags with hot pink on the body so they're easier to spot when dropped.

Dr. Strangelove · March 12, 2010, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bamaranger

Basically I had a $600 dollar single shot pistol, on the job.

If you had a pistol with a magazine disconnect safety, you wouldn't even have that....

tlm225 · March 12, 2010, 08:20 PM

JohnH1963 said:

Quote:

The Glock is the be all and end all of carry guns. This just doesnt happen with them. You can throw them on the ground, at the wall and stomp on it, the magazine just isnt coming out.

JohnH, sorry my brother but in my post (#11) the gun involved was a Glock 22 in perfect condition. I have as much faith and trust in my Glock as one can have in a mechanical device, but sometimes stuff happens. No gun is immune from failure.

Quote:

I had that happen to me once. I was a K-9 officer at the time and was performing a search of a wooded area with dense brush and vine. At some point during the search vines got between my body and the gun, releasing the magazine. Unfortunately I didn't discover until after my shift that I was carrying a single shot on duty for about six hours. To this day I have a tendency to reach down and check the magazine in my gun.

FM12 · March 15, 2010, 02:29 PM

That Kudzu will eat anything!

Brit · March 20, 2010, 07:23 AM

Quote:

The Glock is the be all and end all of carry guns. This just doesnt happen with them. You can throw them on the ground, at the wall and stomp on it, the magazine just isnt coming out.

As my Jamaican friend says "If it don't go so, it nearly go so"

If you want to destabilize your Magazine from staying in any Glock, fit one of those oversize mag; releases!

My every day, all day holster (and IDPA match one also) is a Glock Sport? Holster, somewhat chopped down. Inside this holster is a wee block, protects the mag; release, works perfectly. You can not put pressure on the button in any way shape or form. My shooting buddy was warned (by me) loose that extended button! He only did after two instances of mag; loss in matches. The 4thGen Magazine release has been reconfigured, longer, but does not stick proud of the body any further, awaiting my Gen4 Mod;19.

February 28, 2010, 10:25 PM	#2
bigghoss Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2006 Location: Pueblo, Colorado Posts: 2,664	maybe that's why some people believe that only revolvers are suitable for woods carry. personally that scenario had never occurred to me. __________________ I don't collect guns, I accumulate them.

February 28, 2010, 10:50 PM	#3
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,986	That's one solution. European gunmakers have solved this with other approaches such as: Staying with heel-releases Using button magazine releases that are not easily activated accidentally (e.g. recessed buttons). Employing magazine releases that are far enough forward that they are covered by the holster body. (e.g. H&K swing down release on the trigger guard) Designing semi-autos with magazine brakes that prevent the magazine from falling free even if the release is pressed. Designing magazines that won't fall free even if the release is pressed. Here in the U.S. we're apparently far more worried about spending an extra fraction of a second reloading (even though most encounters don't involve a reload) than we are about having our pistols turn into single-shots accidentally... __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

March 1, 2010, 08:04 AM	#4
eldogg4life Member Join Date: October 24, 2005 Location: The North Pole... Posts: 42	This has happened to me... My first gun was a Glock 21 and as I would get out of my car I would often engage the mag release button. Let me guess, you are a lefty too??? Now I have a Glock 23 and my vehicle is not as low to the ground so I am testing it out to see if the mag will drop out or not. I once noticed my weapon had no mag while sitting in a pew at church. I almost had a heart attack because I knew if someone found my mag it would become a national emergency. I traced my footsteps and found it in my car between my seat and the door. My H&K is impossible to deactivate in this manner but then again so is my SA XD9. The H&K release is deeper under the trigger guard and the XD release in "imbedded" and fits semi flush to the frame. The Glock release protrudes and is therefor more likely to be engage. Raven concealment (holster manufacturers) told me they can make me a custom holster that covers the mag release button. I will be getting that soon. Best of luck in the brush!!!! -eL __________________ http://www.youtube.com/eldogg4life

March 1, 2010, 09:33 AM	#5
45Gunner Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 1,902	JohnKSa, your post immediately triggers a question, no pun intended. If magazines are designed with a brake or are not easily ejected from the grip, how does one perform an emergency reload? I can see where a tactical reload would not present a huge problem but I can envision a scenario where one must quickly eject a magazine and insert a new one. It is not a pretty picture seeing someone in need of ammo struggling to get the expended mag out. I carried a .45 thru the jungles of Vietnam and never had an accidental mag ejection. Of course the holster was one with a flap that protected the entire gun so that nothing could snag the trigger or mag release button. I would have to suggest that if one were to do duty in the forest or climbing/crawling thru brush, then perhaps the appropriate full flap holster would be a must. It's my guess that most of us have more than one type of holster for a particular gun so when the days that forest duty are not on the menu, you could switch to the holster that you normally utilize. __________________ 45Gunner May the Schwartz Be With You. NRA Instructor NRA Life Member

March 1, 2010, 06:06 PM	#10
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	for the record.... I was using a full flap, mil spec Bianchi holster like the one posted prior. And I have covered a bunch of ground over the course of a career and never lost a mag from the pistol. (did loose one from a horizontal pouch, switched to vertical carry on off side) Lost a set of cuffs once, the whole pouch ripped from the belt. Not a lefty, thankfully. Never though about revolvers only for woods guns, but come to think of it, my personal time, off duty ones mostly are. Gotta carry what your issued. Course the military is detachabe mag everything, and have been for years, but I guess they have more mags about. "PVT, give me one of your mags".................

February 28, 2010, 10:20 PM	#1
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	Lost a mag on the job yesterday I was conducting a boundary marking and patrol detail on Sat. Beautiful day. Wood lot type cover, much of it thick and grown up. Imagine rabbit hunting. My rig was a Bianchi Mil flap holster made for the Sig P220, heavy nylon gun belt, and Bianchi GI type mag pouches, along w/ other defensive gear, but minimal so you can walk distances w/ the stuff. I busted brush for 3 hrs or so, and quit for lunch. I had a mail run in town to do anyhow. At the diner I realized I was missing a mag from my pistol. Apparently, brush had gotten behind the grip and tripped the mag release button, and the mag then got snagged at some point and was lost. Basically I had a $600 dollar single shot pistol, on the job. I plunked in one of my spares from the belt. I searched the stretch of boundary for another hour, but no mag. Lesson: Conduct an inspection of your gear and weapon after exertion or periodically on duty. On another occasion, I lost a spare mag in a rapid exit from a 4WD. Glad I didn't "need" either of these items at the time in question!!!!!

March 1, 2010, 10:09 AM	#6
Slopemeno Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2007 Posts: 2,663	There's a number of different techniques for dealing with mags that aren't/don't drop free. The one I was instructed in was to use the heel of the fresh mag to strip the previous magazine in an up/down/in motion.

March 1, 2010, 02:27 PM	#8
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	I know I will be criticized for this,oh well. I recall a few years back I walked into a 7-11 late one night.I noiced an LEO in the store.I noticed he had a top of the line 1911 in his holster.Then I thought"Don't pay too much attention to his handgun,he might figure you want to grab it.And I did my business and went on,then I got in my car and it struck me.His mag well was empty. I would have discretely advised him had it occured to me sooner I just had other things on my mind.

March 1, 2010, 02:39 PM	#9
hoytinak Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 5,721	I carry a HK P2000 .40 in a Bianchi AccuMold holster at work and about every other time I get out of the vehicle I notice my mag rattling loose in the mag well. It's become habit to slap the mag in the magwell every time I get out of the vehicle now.

March 1, 2010, 09:01 PM	#11
tlm225 Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 962	I had that happen to me once. I was a K-9 officer at the time and was performing a search of a wooded area with dense brush and vine. At some point during the search vines got between my body and the gun, releasing the magazine. Unfortunately I didn't discover until after my shift that I was carrying a single shot on duty for about six hours. To this day I have a tendency to reach down and check the magazine in my gun. __________________ All that is neccessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

March 2, 2010, 11:39 AM	#12
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	I would say time to get a different holster. Loose one mag shame on the holster, loose a second mag shame on me for being stupid. __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

March 2, 2010, 06:23 PM	#13
troy_mclure Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: gulf of mexico Posts: 2,716	I just looked at my blackhawk! serpa holster for my 1911 that i plan on using for a woods gun. The mag release isn't covered like on all my other holsters, but its tucked under the paddle. Ill have to experiment and see if this holster is vulnerable to mag loss. __________________ There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

March 2, 2010, 06:34 PM	#14
KLRANGL Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2008 Location: Fredericksburg, VA Posts: 958	haha troy, thank you for putting the '!' at the end of Blackhawk! Made this blackhawk fanboy happy I'm inclined to agree with JohnKSa. I chose to get a P7 PSP over the P7M8 because the slightly longer reload time is worth not losing a magazine to a seat belt while concealed carrying. For those not in the know, the PSP has a heal released mag, while the M8 has the more traditional mag release near the trigger. I also have never worried about my USPc releasing a mag. It is out of the way, and takes some force to depress. __________________ And it's Killer Angel... as in the book

March 3, 2010, 08:31 AM	#16
troy_mclure Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: gulf of mexico Posts: 2,716	^ Ive read about it, but the local police supply shop where i bought it has a bucket of sand and a decommissioned glock you can try to jam up in one. I guess it takes the right combination of gun/grit to freeze it up. __________________ There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

March 7, 2010, 05:33 AM	#17
eldogg4life Member Join Date: October 24, 2005 Location: The North Pole... Posts: 42	Quick update I bought a Serpa level 1 retention holster for my Glock 23 and the holster actually does a great job of covering the mag release. I will be running it in a 4 day defensive handgun course later this month and am interested to see how things go. Good luck to everyone. __________________ http://www.youtube.com/eldogg4life

March 9, 2010, 01:19 AM	#18
michael t Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: Out back Ky Posts: 4,044	A narrow strip of Duck Tape will keep in place If popped the tape will still keep mag in pistol . Perhaps a lanyard for the mag Remember early 1911's had some mags set up that way Just have one mag for woods/brush duty __________________ Certified Armed Infidel Colt Defender ,Colt Mustang ,Dan Wesson CBOB, PPK/S, American Classic 1911,Bersa Thunder 380 http://bersachat.comHome of Bersa http://www.metroarms1911forum.com

March 9, 2010, 08:21 PM	#19
TenRing Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Posts: 427	bamaranger, I'm glad that you didn't get caught off guard with that single-shot. JohnKSa nailed it. Guns that are intended for the American market are geared towards speedy reloading rather than security of the load that is already in the gun. I have handled some guns where the magazine actually shoots out of the mag well when the release is pressed. Personally, I'm not worried about speed loading a 10 to 15 round gun if I can just hang on to the rounds that I already have in the gun. The extra second to reload is worth the security of retaining the mag. I would love to buy a Ruger P95, Smith & Wesson 5906 or FNP with heel release. In general, the revolver does gives me a better sense of security when I'm in the woods for this reason. Six for sure rather than 15 maybe. Plus, the revolver won't get knocked out of battery during a contact shooting.

March 9, 2010, 10:45 PM	#20
JohnH1963 Junior member Join Date: October 22, 2008 Posts: 416	As many posters here have stated in the past, the Sig Sauer is just not a great gun for duty. Things get snagged, magazines fall out of the well... Its a great gun for the range, but just not one you want to carry around. The Glock is the be all and end all of carry guns. This just doesnt happen with them. You can throw them on the ground, at the wall and stomp on it, the magazine just isnt coming out.

March 10, 2010, 09:18 PM	#21
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	lost mag stuff happens. I lost an AR mag a couple of weeks back while coyote hunting. Lost balance and fell into knee deep snow. Apparently, while getting up and trying to keep muzzle out of snow I bumped the release. Returned to the 2 places I fell that day and found mag in the second spot. Paint your mags with hot pink on the body so they're easier to spot when dropped.

March 15, 2010, 02:29 PM	#24
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	That Kudzu will eat anything!