Polygonal Bullet ID help

SWKDigger · February 28, 2015, 12:44 PM

I'm new here and honestly came here to find an answer to my question. While I am a shooting enthusiast, my real hobby is metal detecting. Recently I found a bullet while detecting that I have not been able to identify. It is heptagonal (7 sided) and measures 3/4 inches long and weighs 325.5 grains. Appears to be a drop and not a fired bullet. I found it in a location along the Santa Fe trail where the pioneers stopped for water and often camped so it could date from the 1820s-1914. I suspect it is very modern but I have never seen a bullet shaped like this so I wanted to try to ID it. When I found the bullet it was rather white but the white coating/corrosion came off easily, even when I tried to be careful to leave it on it.

I've attached a pic of 3 different views. I would appreciate any help with ID on this.

[IMG]

[/IMG]

tahunua001 · February 28, 2015, 01:08 PM

you have a set of calipers to check the diameter?

SWKDigger · February 28, 2015, 01:12 PM

Thanks for looking. No calipers but as it sits on the tape, the flat side to your right is exactly on the 1" mark so the diameter from the flat side to the point on the opposite side is pretty close to 7/16 or roughly .4375. That's as close as I can get right now.

tahunua001 · February 28, 2015, 01:16 PM

I haven't found a single reference using my googlefoo skills but I do not believe it was cast that way. it appears as if it was fired and the corners are the result of rifling and smoothed by the corrosion. if it was fired in snow or tall thick grass, it may have slowed the bullet to the point that upon impact with the ground it simply deformed the tip a bit and spun off somewhere and fell where you found it.

my father picked up a great deal of dropped miniballs near the little bighorn battle field and all of them were pretty much perfect condition, that bullet should be in dang near the same shape it was in when it was cast and I cant see anyone using a mold with that much deformation in the tip.

Jim Watson · February 28, 2015, 01:18 PM

Everybody knows about the hexagonal Whitworth and the Thomas was pentagonal. I can't find anything about a heptagonal bore rifle, but it sure looks like there was one.

SWKDigger · February 28, 2015, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tahunua001

that bullet should be in dang near the same shape it was in when it was cast and I cant see anyone using a mold with that much deformation in the tip.

Hadn't thought too much about the deformation of the tip and have been concentrating on the bottom of the bullet. Didn't think that it would corrosion would have that much effect on it. The area that I found it is really sandy so impact is pretty soft.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

Everybody knows about the hexagonal Whitworth and the Thomas was pentagonal. I can't find anything about a heptagonal bore rifle, but it sure looks like there was one.

Yep, I've found a lot of info on the different hexagonal and pentagonal barrels but not a thing on heptagonal bore rifles. I wondered if it was more modern and was made for a plastic sabot.

Another bit of information about the area is that there were a lot of buffalo hunters here during the expansion of the railroad. The small body of water near the area where I found it was a local watering hole for herds of buffalo. If it is that old then a shot and miss is certainly a possibility.

mwells72774 · February 28, 2015, 01:37 PM

Could it be from some type of Whitworth rifle? They had bullets of a similar shape

SWKDigger · February 28, 2015, 01:49 PM

I'm not sure if you can tell by the middle picture but the "corners" of the bullet are pitched slightly from top to bottom like the rifling in a barrel. This pretty much would discount the plastic sabot theory I had...

@mwells72774- Have you seen a Whitworth with 7 sides to the bore? I have not found one like that yet.

Jim Watson · February 28, 2015, 02:17 PM

Whitworth patented the hexagonal barrel bore and stuck with it as far as I can tell.
That is why the Thomas was pentagonal, to function the same without infringement.

Heptagonal, I don't know.

BoogieMan · March 16, 2015, 01:36 PM

Found this reference:
https://books.google.com/books?id=h_...bullet&f=false
Refers to a Henry-Martini rifle being a heptagon so not to interfere with the Whitworth hexagonal shape. The above is a link to the Journal of the Royal Institute of Great Britain.
Here is another link to "The Arms and the Man"
https://books.google.com/books?id=Ep...bullet&f=false
Same Reference to the Martini rifle.

TBH- I have no idea about this stuff. I saw the post and I find these things intriguing. I love mechanical history and firearms fall right into that category.

James K · March 16, 2015, 07:52 PM

Aside from the number of flats, the major difference between the Whitworth and the Henry systems was that the Whitworth bullet was cast with the shape of the bore and had to be loaded accordingly, while the Henry bullet was round and expanded to fit the bore. That would seem to be a .450 bullet fired from a .577/450 Martini-Henry rifle.

The Martini-Henry rifle was used by the British in roughly the same time period as the trapdoor Springfield was used by the U.S., though the Martini was (IMHO) a better rifle than the "trapdoor", though the American ammunition was better. FWIW, the British, in the second half of the 19th century, designated rifles with two names - that of the rifle designer and that of the rifling designer. So they had the Snider-Enfield (rifling designed at the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield); the Martini-Henry, the Lee-Metford, and the Lee-Enfield.

Since Martini-Henrys were made and sold commercially in England and surplus rifles were sold all over the world even in the mid-20th century, it would be impossible to say whether that bullet was fired in the 1870's or last year.

Jim

**Mike Irwin** · March 17, 2015, 06:21 AM

Wesley Richards also made Martini-Henry pattern rifles at a factory in Belgum under contract to Transvaal and the Orange Free State

Jim Watson · March 17, 2015, 09:53 AM

Alex Henry rifling is on a heptagonal plan but it is not a simple geometric figure. There is a small triangular land at each vertex of the heptagon. I don't think the OP's bullet was fired from a Henry pattern barrel.
A friend has a Webley double rifle with Alex Henry rifling, it is an interesting view.

SWKDigger · March 17, 2015, 03:44 PM

Thank you everyone for your replies. I'm very intrigued by this bullet. It does not appear to have been expanded to this shape and I believe it was cast as a heptagon. This is the first bullet that I have not been able to positively id.

I've researched all of the suggestions and I don't think it is the henry-martini but ilk keep researching. I really do alleviate everyone's input.

bedbugbilly · March 17, 2015, 10:03 PM

SWKDigger -I'm just curious as I just like relics - have done some metal detecting - I have a great collection of roofing nails to show for all my efforts!

It's an interesting find for sure. What other sorts of relics have you found in the same area where the settlers stopped?

SWKDigger · March 19, 2015, 01:58 AM

bedbugbilly - I have found a few relics that date back to the Santa Fe Trail days. Mainly brass buckles off of horse tack, roundballs, buttons and stuff like that. I have found more from the era of the first settlers in my area. The town was first settled in 1873 and I have found some farm equipment like single-tree hardware, the brass knobs off of oxen/horse yokes, tools, horseshoes, and lots of shotgun shell headstamps that date right around 1890-1900. More square nails than I care to mention. Also misc. ammo like 50-70 shell, 45-70 fired lead, a shell from a 38-56 and multiple roundballs and 2 ring (groove) conical rounds. It is always interesting to dig stuff up.

BTW, any metal detectorist has a great collection of nails, pull tabs and foil.

February 28, 2015, 12:44 PM	#1
SWKDigger Junior Member Join Date: February 28, 2015 Posts: 6	Polygonal Bullet ID help I'm new here and honestly came here to find an answer to my question. While I am a shooting enthusiast, my real hobby is metal detecting. Recently I found a bullet while detecting that I have not been able to identify. It is heptagonal (7 sided) and measures 3/4 inches long and weighs 325.5 grains. Appears to be a drop and not a fired bullet. I found it in a location along the Santa Fe trail where the pioneers stopped for water and often camped so it could date from the 1820s-1914. I suspect it is very modern but I have never seen a bullet shaped like this so I wanted to try to ID it. When I found the bullet it was rather white but the white coating/corrosion came off easily, even when I tried to be careful to leave it on it. I've attached a pic of 3 different views. I would appreciate any help with ID on this. [IMG][/IMG]

February 28, 2015, 01:08 PM	#2
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	you have a set of calipers to check the diameter? __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

February 28, 2015, 01:16 PM	#4
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	I haven't found a single reference using my googlefoo skills but I do not believe it was cast that way. it appears as if it was fired and the corners are the result of rifling and smoothed by the corrosion. if it was fired in snow or tall thick grass, it may have slowed the bullet to the point that upon impact with the ground it simply deformed the tip a bit and spun off somewhere and fell where you found it. my father picked up a great deal of dropped miniballs near the little bighorn battle field and all of them were pretty much perfect condition, that bullet should be in dang near the same shape it was in when it was cast and I cant see anyone using a mold with that much deformation in the tip. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

March 16, 2015, 01:36 PM	#10
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	Found this reference: https://books.google.com/books?id=h_...bullet&f=false Refers to a Henry-Martini rifle being a heptagon so not to interfere with the Whitworth hexagonal shape. The above is a link to the Journal of the Royal Institute of Great Britain. Here is another link to "The Arms and the Man" https://books.google.com/books?id=Ep...bullet&f=false Same Reference to the Martini rifle. TBH- I have no idea about this stuff. I saw the post and I find these things intriguing. I love mechanical history and firearms fall right into that category. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

March 17, 2015, 06:21 AM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	Wesley Richards also made Martini-Henry pattern rifles at a factory in Belgum under contract to Transvaal and the Orange Free State __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 28, 2015, 01:12 PM	#3
SWKDigger Junior Member Join Date: February 28, 2015 Posts: 6	Thanks for looking. No calipers but as it sits on the tape, the flat side to your right is exactly on the 1" mark so the diameter from the flat side to the point on the opposite side is pretty close to 7/16 or roughly .4375. That's as close as I can get right now.

February 28, 2015, 01:18 PM	#5
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Everybody knows about the hexagonal Whitworth and the Thomas was pentagonal. I can't find anything about a heptagonal bore rifle, but it sure looks like there was one.

February 28, 2015, 01:37 PM	#7
mwells72774 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2011 Posts: 325	Could it be from some type of Whitworth rifle? They had bullets of a similar shape

February 28, 2015, 01:49 PM	#8
SWKDigger Junior Member Join Date: February 28, 2015 Posts: 6	I'm not sure if you can tell by the middle picture but the "corners" of the bullet are pitched slightly from top to bottom like the rifling in a barrel. This pretty much would discount the plastic sabot theory I had... @mwells72774- Have you seen a Whitworth with 7 sides to the bore? I have not found one like that yet.

February 28, 2015, 02:17 PM	#9
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Whitworth patented the hexagonal barrel bore and stuck with it as far as I can tell. That is why the Thomas was pentagonal, to function the same without infringement. Heptagonal, I don't know.

March 16, 2015, 07:52 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Aside from the number of flats, the major difference between the Whitworth and the Henry systems was that the Whitworth bullet was cast with the shape of the bore and had to be loaded accordingly, while the Henry bullet was round and expanded to fit the bore. That would seem to be a .450 bullet fired from a .577/450 Martini-Henry rifle. The Martini-Henry rifle was used by the British in roughly the same time period as the trapdoor Springfield was used by the U.S., though the Martini was (IMHO) a better rifle than the "trapdoor", though the American ammunition was better. FWIW, the British, in the second half of the 19th century, designated rifles with two names - that of the rifle designer and that of the rifling designer. So they had the Snider-Enfield (rifling designed at the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield); the Martini-Henry, the Lee-Metford, and the Lee-Enfield. Since Martini-Henrys were made and sold commercially in England and surplus rifles were sold all over the world even in the mid-20th century, it would be impossible to say whether that bullet was fired in the 1870's or last year. Jim

March 17, 2015, 09:53 AM	#13
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Alex Henry rifling is on a heptagonal plan but it is not a simple geometric figure. There is a small triangular land at each vertex of the heptagon. I don't think the OP's bullet was fired from a Henry pattern barrel. A friend has a Webley double rifle with Alex Henry rifling, it is an interesting view.

March 17, 2015, 03:44 PM	#14
SWKDigger Junior Member Join Date: February 28, 2015 Posts: 6	Thank you everyone for your replies. I'm very intrigued by this bullet. It does not appear to have been expanded to this shape and I believe it was cast as a heptagon. This is the first bullet that I have not been able to positively id. I've researched all of the suggestions and I don't think it is the henry-martini but ilk keep researching. I really do alleviate everyone's input.

March 17, 2015, 10:03 PM	#15
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	SWKDigger -I'm just curious as I just like relics - have done some metal detecting - I have a great collection of roofing nails to show for all my efforts! It's an interesting find for sure. What other sorts of relics have you found in the same area where the settlers stopped? __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

March 19, 2015, 01:58 AM	#16
SWKDigger Junior Member Join Date: February 28, 2015 Posts: 6	bedbugbilly - I have found a few relics that date back to the Santa Fe Trail days. Mainly brass buckles off of horse tack, roundballs, buttons and stuff like that. I have found more from the era of the first settlers in my area. The town was first settled in 1873 and I have found some farm equipment like single-tree hardware, the brass knobs off of oxen/horse yokes, tools, horseshoes, and lots of shotgun shell headstamps that date right around 1890-1900. More square nails than I care to mention. Also misc. ammo like 50-70 shell, 45-70 fired lead, a shell from a 38-56 and multiple roundballs and 2 ring (groove) conical rounds. It is always interesting to dig stuff up. BTW, any metal detectorist has a great collection of nails, pull tabs and foil.