2,700 Feet per Second

redhawk41 · December 8, 2006, 05:31 PM

Interesting article in the latest Handloader magazine.

Basically it states that 2,700 ft/s is the "magic" velocity of rifle bullets used for big game hunting. This is based on trajectory, bullet expansion, and meat destruction.

For me it simply justifies my three favorite .30 caliber rifle cartridges:

.308 Winchester == 150 gr @ 2700 ft/s
.30-06 Springfield == 180 gr @ 2700 ft/s
.300 Winchester Mag == 200 gr @ 2700 ft/s

What are your opinions on the 2700 ft/s theory?

Jim Watson · December 8, 2006, 05:52 PM

There was a Swedish study some years ago that pegged 2650 fps as the magic number AT THE CRITTER. So 2700 fps MV at woods ranges would be ok by that, too.

Pointer · December 8, 2006, 06:01 PM

Quote:

For me it simply justifies my three favorite .30 caliber rifle cartridges:

.308 Winchester == 150 gr @ 2700 ft/s
.30-06 Springfield == 180 gr @ 2700 ft/s
.300 Winchester Mag == 200 gr @ 2700 ft/s

Yeah baby!

I have always considered the optimum speed to be 3000fps and up.

.30-06 Springfield == 165 gr @ 2950 fps

That's my fave-wave and I'm gonna ride it all the way to the beach...

30-06 FOREVER

Socrates · December 8, 2006, 07:50 PM

Bunch of guys that shoot cape buffalo swear by the 300 grain barnes X, at 2700 fps. Need either a 404/375, Weatherby 375, or 378, or RUM.

Also, another group likes the .450 Ackley, using 350 grain bullets, at about 3000 fps.

For REALLY big game, standards are soft points, 500 grains, 2400 fps, and solids, 500 grains, and 2150 fps.

"Big Game" in this article, doesn't sound like it is.
Most African countries start hunting cartridges at 375 H&H, and go up, for REAL "Big Game".

Don't see that blanket statement as anything to take to the bank...too many exceptions.

S

Scorch · December 8, 2006, 08:32 PM

Imagine that, a magic number. Well, I guess all those deer killed with 30-30s, 45-70s, 30-40 Krags, 444s, 44-40s, etc, shouldn't have died after all. Who would have known!

Sounds like some gun writer just sat down and thought "What can I write about today?"

Ausserordeutlich · December 8, 2006, 08:45 PM

IF the gun writer were a real writer, he wouldn't be a gun writer.

redhawk41 · December 9, 2006, 01:37 AM

I personally find merit to the 2700 fps philosophy.

Let's start with trajectory:

Assuming a ballistic coefficient of .38 we obtain the following trajectories for a 200 yd zero:

100 yds == 2 in
200 yds == 0 in
300 yds == -1 ft
400 yds == -2 ft

Those are pretty easy numbers to remember in the field.

Bullet expansion:

Bullet expansion is, basically, related to the energy of the bullet on impact with the target media, in this case a tasty game animal. If we assume 1500 ft-lbs of energy on impact for reliable expansion, we obtain the following results:

150 gr bullet - 1600 ft-lbs @ 200 yds, 1350 ft-lbs @ 300 yds
180 gr bullet - 1600 ft-lbs @ 300 yds, 1300 ft-lbs @ 400 yds
200 gr bullet - 1500 ft-lbs @ 400 yds, 1200 ft-lbs @ 500 yds

In general, we get increased useful range as bullet weight is increased. 308 for 200 yd shots, 30-06 for 300 yd shots, and 300 mag for 400 yd shots.

Meat destruction:

While my actual field experience is somewhat limited, I do have a lot of second hand knowledge, which may or may not mean much. In general a slower bullet is less susceptible to explosion when impacting bone and related media at the target. Also, higher velocity bullets tend to travel straight through the animal, sometimes not giving any indication of a hit. Theoretically the best bullet is one that stops just past the vitals with maximum expansion and weight retention and minimal explosion. This generally occurs at a certain energy (see above).

The combination of trajectory, bullet expansion, and terminal performance makes 2700 fps look pretty good for the previously mentioned .30 caliber cartridges at their respective ranges.

Source: Speer #13

VaFisher · December 9, 2006, 05:25 AM

Well I have been trying not to get in this but here goes. I been shooting the Hornady SST 30 cal 150gr in a 300 WM. Well in my gun it holds a great pattern at 2900 fps, it also holds a great pattern at 3250 fps. I shot deer with both loads, 2900fps load preformed well with good expansion and not much fragmentation compleate pass through. Also shot much larger deer and moose with the 3250fps, these performed as good or better as the 2900fps load with great expansion in fact they went through both shoulders of the moose and stayed inside the hide for a great comparision. For what it worth thought I would share my experiance with a supper good bullet at different speeds or they are both above what I would consider kinda slow for my gun.

Slugthrower · December 9, 2006, 08:01 AM

Never heard of 2700 fps MV being a magic number for all rifle cartridges in general. The .223 Reminington/5.56x45mm NATO round exibits fragmentation in a 55 grain FMJ at 2700 fps MV down to about 2500 fps at 200 meters/220 yds. Specifically.
The M-16 with it's 20 inch bbl is effective to around 300 meters , due to fragmentation. The M-4 does the same at only about 200 meters maximum. This is why the 5.56 has been given a bad reputation for effectiveness in Iraq or other places where the ranges are long.
It is possible that the bullet construction in other calibers may be similar. 2700 fps might be a threshhold for said fragmentation to occur in larger rifle calibers. More study is needed to conclude that it is proper to assume that all calibers are most effective at 2700 fps. The medium in which the bullet is to pass will generally dictate the required velocity for explosive fragmentation or adaquate penatration of vitals, as will the mass and constuction of said bullet. 2700 fps best velocity for all calibers is a blanket statement and is likely false. Just as it would be false to say that all dogs have four legs.

Just my 22 cents worth as 2 cents isn't worth the copper to make a 2 pennies. Ok yall, can shoot me now.

Trapper L · December 9, 2006, 10:49 AM

I guess this means I can load my 223 down to 2700'ps and go elephant hunting. The writer hasn't got a clue. I'll stick with the old way of doing things. For big game, use big bullets and big cartridges.

redhawk41 · December 9, 2006, 01:33 PM

Quote:

I guess this means I can load my 223 down to 2700'ps and go elephant hunting.

Actually, the article says nothing like that.

You could, however hunt elephant with a .375 H&H, using a 300 gr bullet @ just under 2700 feet per second.

Trapper L · December 9, 2006, 08:56 PM

Okay, lets approach it from the other direction. The most popular BIG game cartridge- the 458 Winchester Magnum. The "normal" loading for this round for BIG game would be the 500 gr bullet. The MAX loading out of the Speer #13 manual has it at 2200'ps. So I guess this "writer" is suggesting that the rest of the hunting crowd doesn't have clue about BIG game cartridges. Must be lonely in his world as the 458 can't hit the perfect 2700'ps with any bullet. If you are hunting BIG game, you need big cartridges and big bullets- they generate whats called "energy". And on BIG game, the more the better. Also, according to the numbers you posted, he would be perfectly fine taking a water buffalo with the 30-06. I've seen these creatures take as many as 5 rounds from a 600 Express and keep on moving. The "puny" 3006 would get you killed in a heartbeat by one of these animals. The "writer" doesn't have a clue.

Hotdog1911 · December 9, 2006, 11:34 PM

The "puny'' 30 cal. anything in Africa is only good for collecting camp meat or to commit suicide with after you arouse dangerous game. That is why they call it 'Dangerous Game'.

But I don't know about the 458 thing. I hear that more elephants have been killed in Africa and in India with a British .303. Not because it was the best suited caliber, but because it was the rifle most commly at hand.

There is a book out called, "Use Enough Gun", written back in the 'olden days'. Also, the Late Jeff Cooper wrote about dangerous game a lot. Between the two they should put the issue of caliber to rest.

Shoney · December 10, 2006, 06:08 AM

I have harvested and culled many hundreds of deer, antelope and elk for myself, my immediate family and my extended family. I have cut that meat up myself. I have personally used rifles chambered for 12 different cartridges, and have seen the results of 5 or 6 more different cartridges, so I know a little bit about what bullets do to meat.

The 2700fps is the product of happy equine peristalsis. Yes, speed is important, however, bullet construction in conjunction with distance to the target animal are of greater importance.

A .308 with a 170 gr flat point and a 168 gr match, both at 2700fps muzzle will have 1500fps and 2150fps respectively at 300 yards. Really big difference what each will do to meat at 300 yards. At close range one will leave a nice wound channel, the other will be like a hand grenade.

Ruger4570 · December 10, 2006, 06:03 PM

The 2700 fps theory is fine with certain bullets, other types may either explode and do little other than surface damage or fail to open at all. You have to match up your particular bullet with the right speed. I happen to use a 35-284 with Sierra 225 gr bullets at 2700fps..That is just where I ended up I guess. I got the best accuracy at that speed and a bullet that has destroyed the innards of 4 Elk and went completly through them. I like to holes in game better than one, more places for the blood to drain out.

December 8, 2006, 08:32 PM	#5
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Imagine that, a magic number. Well, I guess all those deer killed with 30-30s, 45-70s, 30-40 Krags, 444s, 44-40s, etc, shouldn't have died after all. Who would have known! Sounds like some gun writer just sat down and thought "What can I write about today?" __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

December 9, 2006, 01:37 AM	#7
redhawk41 Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2005 Location: Red Desert Posts: 819	I personally find merit to the 2700 fps philosophy. Let's start with trajectory: Assuming a ballistic coefficient of .38 we obtain the following trajectories for a 200 yd zero: 100 yds == 2 in 200 yds == 0 in 300 yds == -1 ft 400 yds == -2 ft Those are pretty easy numbers to remember in the field. Bullet expansion: Bullet expansion is, basically, related to the energy of the bullet on impact with the target media, in this case a tasty game animal. If we assume 1500 ft-lbs of energy on impact for reliable expansion, we obtain the following results: 150 gr bullet - 1600 ft-lbs @ 200 yds, 1350 ft-lbs @ 300 yds 180 gr bullet - 1600 ft-lbs @ 300 yds, 1300 ft-lbs @ 400 yds 200 gr bullet - 1500 ft-lbs @ 400 yds, 1200 ft-lbs @ 500 yds In general, we get increased useful range as bullet weight is increased. 308 for 200 yd shots, 30-06 for 300 yd shots, and 300 mag for 400 yd shots. Meat destruction: While my actual field experience is somewhat limited, I do have a lot of second hand knowledge, which may or may not mean much. In general a slower bullet is less susceptible to explosion when impacting bone and related media at the target. Also, higher velocity bullets tend to travel straight through the animal, sometimes not giving any indication of a hit. Theoretically the best bullet is one that stops just past the vitals with maximum expansion and weight retention and minimal explosion. This generally occurs at a certain energy (see above). The combination of trajectory, bullet expansion, and terminal performance makes 2700 fps look pretty good for the previously mentioned .30 caliber cartridges at their respective ranges. Source: Speer #13 __________________ {empty thought cloud}

December 10, 2006, 06:08 AM	#14
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	I have harvested and culled many hundreds of deer, antelope and elk for myself, my immediate family and my extended family. I have cut that meat up myself. I have personally used rifles chambered for 12 different cartridges, and have seen the results of 5 or 6 more different cartridges, so I know a little bit about what bullets do to meat. The 2700fps is the product of happy equine peristalsis. Yes, speed is important, however, bullet construction in conjunction with distance to the target animal are of greater importance. A .308 with a 170 gr flat point and a 168 gr match, both at 2700fps muzzle will have 1500fps and 2150fps respectively at 300 yards. Really big difference what each will do to meat at 300 yards. At close range one will leave a nice wound channel, the other will be like a hand grenade. __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111

December 8, 2006, 05:31 PM	#1
redhawk41 Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2005 Location: Red Desert Posts: 819	2,700 Feet per Second Interesting article in the latest Handloader magazine. Basically it states that 2,700 ft/s is the "magic" velocity of rifle bullets used for big game hunting. This is based on trajectory, bullet expansion, and meat destruction. For me it simply justifies my three favorite .30 caliber rifle cartridges: .308 Winchester == 150 gr @ 2700 ft/s .30-06 Springfield == 180 gr @ 2700 ft/s .300 Winchester Mag == 200 gr @ 2700 ft/s What are your opinions on the 2700 ft/s theory? __________________ {empty thought cloud}

December 8, 2006, 05:52 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	There was a Swedish study some years ago that pegged 2650 fps as the magic number AT THE CRITTER. So 2700 fps MV at woods ranges would be ok by that, too.

December 8, 2006, 07:50 PM	#4
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	Bunch of guys that shoot cape buffalo swear by the 300 grain barnes X, at 2700 fps. Need either a 404/375, Weatherby 375, or 378, or RUM. Also, another group likes the .450 Ackley, using 350 grain bullets, at about 3000 fps. For REALLY big game, standards are soft points, 500 grains, 2400 fps, and solids, 500 grains, and 2150 fps. "Big Game" in this article, doesn't sound like it is. Most African countries start hunting cartridges at 375 H&H, and go up, for REAL "Big Game". Don't see that blanket statement as anything to take to the bank...too many exceptions. S

December 8, 2006, 08:45 PM	#6
Ausserordeutlich Junior member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 996	IF the gun writer were a real writer, he wouldn't be a gun writer.

December 9, 2006, 05:25 AM	#8
VaFisher Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2006 Posts: 596	Well I have been trying not to get in this but here goes. I been shooting the Hornady SST 30 cal 150gr in a 300 WM. Well in my gun it holds a great pattern at 2900 fps, it also holds a great pattern at 3250 fps. I shot deer with both loads, 2900fps load preformed well with good expansion and not much fragmentation compleate pass through. Also shot much larger deer and moose with the 3250fps, these performed as good or better as the 2900fps load with great expansion in fact they went through both shoulders of the moose and stayed inside the hide for a great comparision. For what it worth thought I would share my experiance with a supper good bullet at different speeds or they are both above what I would consider kinda slow for my gun.

December 9, 2006, 08:01 AM	#9
Slugthrower Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2006 Posts: 823	Never heard of 2700 fps MV being a magic number for all rifle cartridges in general. The .223 Reminington/5.56x45mm NATO round exibits fragmentation in a 55 grain FMJ at 2700 fps MV down to about 2500 fps at 200 meters/220 yds. Specifically. The M-16 with it's 20 inch bbl is effective to around 300 meters , due to fragmentation. The M-4 does the same at only about 200 meters maximum. This is why the 5.56 has been given a bad reputation for effectiveness in Iraq or other places where the ranges are long. It is possible that the bullet construction in other calibers may be similar. 2700 fps might be a threshhold for said fragmentation to occur in larger rifle calibers. More study is needed to conclude that it is proper to assume that all calibers are most effective at 2700 fps. The medium in which the bullet is to pass will generally dictate the required velocity for explosive fragmentation or adaquate penatration of vitals, as will the mass and constuction of said bullet. 2700 fps best velocity for all calibers is a blanket statement and is likely false. Just as it would be false to say that all dogs have four legs. Just my 22 cents worth as 2 cents isn't worth the copper to make a 2 pennies. Ok yall, can shoot me now.

December 9, 2006, 10:49 AM	#10
Trapper L Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 804	I guess this means I can load my 223 down to 2700'ps and go elephant hunting. The writer hasn't got a clue. I'll stick with the old way of doing things. For big game, use big bullets and big cartridges.

December 9, 2006, 08:56 PM	#12
Trapper L Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 804	Okay, lets approach it from the other direction. The most popular BIG game cartridge- the 458 Winchester Magnum. The "normal" loading for this round for BIG game would be the 500 gr bullet. The MAX loading out of the Speer #13 manual has it at 2200'ps. So I guess this "writer" is suggesting that the rest of the hunting crowd doesn't have clue about BIG game cartridges. Must be lonely in his world as the 458 can't hit the perfect 2700'ps with any bullet. If you are hunting BIG game, you need big cartridges and big bullets- they generate whats called "energy". And on BIG game, the more the better. Also, according to the numbers you posted, he would be perfectly fine taking a water buffalo with the 30-06. I've seen these creatures take as many as 5 rounds from a 600 Express and keep on moving. The "puny" 3006 would get you killed in a heartbeat by one of these animals. The "writer" doesn't have a clue.

December 9, 2006, 11:34 PM	#13
Hotdog1911 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2006 Posts: 282	I think you are correct, Trapper. The "puny'' 30 cal. anything in Africa is only good for collecting camp meat or to commit suicide with after you arouse dangerous game. That is why they call it 'Dangerous Game'. But I don't know about the 458 thing. I hear that more elephants have been killed in Africa and in India with a British .303. Not because it was the best suited caliber, but because it was the rifle most commly at hand. There is a book out called, "Use Enough Gun", written back in the 'olden days'. Also, the Late Jeff Cooper wrote about dangerous game a lot. Between the two they should put the issue of caliber to rest.

December 10, 2006, 06:03 PM	#15
Ruger4570 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 2,136	The 2700 fps theory is fine with certain bullets, other types may either explode and do little other than surface damage or fail to open at all. You have to match up your particular bullet with the right speed. I happen to use a 35-284 with Sierra 225 gr bullets at 2700fps..That is just where I ended up I guess. I got the best accuracy at that speed and a bullet that has destroyed the innards of 4 Elk and went completly through them. I like to holes in game better than one, more places for the blood to drain out.