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August 8, 2017, 10:00 PM | #126 | |
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Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness |
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August 8, 2017, 11:20 PM | #127 | |
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Frankly, muzzle down and muzzle up impacting on the slide are the two things I would try FIRST on any striker fired gun. I'm surprised that the P320 isn't drop safe. I'm dumbfounded that it turned out the failure mode was dropping the gun so that it hits on the rear of the slide. It's hard for me to imagine that wasn't one of the things that SIG tested first. Then again, it's entirely possible that they did test that thoroughly in the initial design and just didn't realize that the change to the trigger was sufficient to change how the system reacts to inertia.
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August 8, 2017, 11:32 PM | #128 | |
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__________________
Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness |
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August 8, 2017, 11:46 PM | #129 | |
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Just as long it passes any drop parallel seems to be good enough.. oh and that damn rubber mat. It just seems like the test is too easy to pass. |
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August 8, 2017, 11:53 PM | #130 | |
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Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness |
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August 9, 2017, 12:02 AM | #131 | ||
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"Frankly, muzzle down and muzzle up impacting on the slide are the two things I would try FIRST on any striker fired gun. I'm surprised that the P320 isn't drop safe. I'm dumbfounded that it turned out the failure mode was dropping the gun so that it hits on the rear of the slide." Quote:
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August 9, 2017, 12:07 AM | #132 | |
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Dallas PD pulls the P320 from their Approved List.
No I read and understood your post. But in order for the slide to be impacted in a muzzle up drop the pistol has to be at an angle because of the beavertail. This is why the standard tests, which do include a muzzle up drop, don't show the problem. I think the slide actually does impact the ground in the standard tests, but it does so after the beaver tail has absorbed much of the impact. The trick is the slide being impacted at the moment the pistol contacts the ground, not just during the drop. That's what I was pointing out.
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I don't think anyone is challenging that now. Last edited by TunnelRat; August 9, 2017 at 12:22 AM. |
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August 9, 2017, 12:45 AM | #133 | |||
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I did not intend to imply "perfectly muzzle up" when I posted "dropping the gun so that it hits on the rear of the slide". I did not intend to imply "muzzle up impacting on the beavertail" when I said "muzzle up impacting on the slide". Quote:
Sorry for the confusion.
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August 9, 2017, 01:02 AM | #134 |
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Dallas PD pulls the P320 from their Approved List.
You certainly don't have to apologize. My goal was merely to clarify for anyone reading how the original muzzle up tests failed to show a discharge whereas this second test did. Until I watched the video I was a bit confused myself and the narration in the video helped a lot so I tried to do the same here. Sometimes I tend to beat the horse a bit in an effort to clarify things . Instead of saying "I think you missed something" I should have said "I think it's worth pointing out."
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August 9, 2017, 07:20 AM | #135 | ||
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I have shot Sigs for a long time and have had Gray Guns pistols in the past. I have shot with guys who were members of Team Sig at one time or another. Bruce is an honorable man of his word. I think that in this instance he is wrong but that does not change my opinion of the man. We all make mistakes. I do not believe there was any ill intention or cover up on his part. It would just not be consistent with every interaction I have ever had with him.
Here is what he said on the Sigforum: posted August 01, 2017 01:16 AM Quote:
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After that I believe Bruce goes silent. Sig clearly knew about this prior to the announcement because the 3 upgrades that the pistols will receive are built into the M17 and the newly release X5. It is pure speculation but the CT officers lawsuit and then the DPD Internet chatter has prompted them to act sooner rather than later. This is a CYA move to get ahead of any other possible ADs. The only question I have for Bruce Gray is how is custom P320 trigger is effected by the DEFECT, and it is clearly a DEFECT. I believe that is why he is now silent on the issue because he most likely is not 100% sure anymore. TTAG for one reason or another has a direct line to Sig. They have been "chosen" to get exclusive info prior to other outlets or the general public. One instructor I know stated that when he shot with Team Sig TTAG would post Team Sig will be shooting at such and such event in the future before he was told he would be shooting at that future event. In the past much of the info they have put out on new product etc came from Sig directly before it went out to others. I personally am disappointed once again by Sig and its "new" products. I waited a decent amount of time before I got my P320 in 45 ACP after being burned by a P250, watched the P238 go through beta testing by the consumer etc...
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August 9, 2017, 08:00 AM | #136 |
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FWIW Omaha Outdoors tested 4 P320s. Some of those had gone through their torture testing, but not all. One that had not was also able to discharge when dropped. I don't remember the exact numbers but I believe it states in the article and the video.
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August 9, 2017, 08:25 AM | #137 |
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There were four guns, three of which were torture tested. The only one to pass had been torture tested before - the 'fresh' gun (not sure if it was NIB or just not tested) had failed.
I will bet anything that they're going to settle the CT case with an NDA, because I suspect that they are desperate to avoid discovery at this point. Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk |
August 9, 2017, 08:30 AM | #138 | |
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So apparently the CT officer's accidental discharge happened on January 5, 2017. He filed suit on August 4, 2017. I'm having a hard time believing that SIG wasn't aware there had been reports of an accidental discharge involving the P320 when the DPD memo came out.
ETA: Quote:
I can't imagine what would make them think slow-walking a recall for a defective trigger would be a good idea? |
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August 9, 2017, 08:30 AM | #139 |
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^ thank you
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August 9, 2017, 09:27 AM | #140 |
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Once again, it's the coverup and not the crime.
I would not have faulted SIG for not catching a defect that passes an industry standard drop test. Had they offered a recall/upgrade when they discovered the problem, they would be fine. Instead, they kept it buried until they got caught, then issued the typical corporate BS speak about a 'voluntary upgrade'. Compare and contrast this behavior with Ruger issuing an immediate recall for an obscure issue with the Mark IV. Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk |
August 9, 2017, 10:10 AM | #141 | |
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A different pistol might fall at similar angles if dropped just right, but might go off if dropped at 15 degrees or at 45 degrees, but not if dropped at 30 degrees. It's impossible for any controlled testing to replicate how someone is going to drop a pistol. In the real world, I doubt that anyone accidentally drops a handgun by letting go of it with the barrel perfectly horizontal (or perfectly vertical). Dropping a gun by accident is a random event, and usually dynamic. The person knocks it off a table, or fumbles it when drawing or when re-holstering. It's more likely than not that in an accidental drop the gun isn't carefully positioned, static, and then released. The gun is probably moving when released, so it's impossible to replicate or reproduce all possible terminal angles and velocities. It's a fool's errand to pretend that any testing protocol, no matter how thorough, can possibly anticipate ALL possible real world scenarios. It's better to train people not to drop guns. |
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August 9, 2017, 10:16 AM | #142 | |
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__________________
Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness |
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August 9, 2017, 10:57 AM | #143 | |
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Maybe a few free form drops need to be included in design just to identify potential liabilities before you get sued. |
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August 9, 2017, 11:38 AM | #144 |
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The pertinent fact here is not that it discharges on a 30 degree drop, as the fact that it discharges when the rear of the slide impacts directly instead of the beavertail.
That seems like deliberate obfuscation on Sig's part - no, it's not reasonable to do a drop test from every angle and height. It is reasonable to drop test directly onto the slide. I accept it's not industry standard, and that it's easy to miss the defect when you test based on those standards. The bigger issue is that circumstantially, it appears Sig knew about the defect and corrected it in the M17 trial pistols, and were rolling out the changes to new pistols on the commercial market, but did not make it public until they were forced to. Contrast that to Ruger recalling the Mark IV over an issue that requires three steps to replicate, and depends on using the safety improperly in the first place. This is less about the merits of the pistol itself (which does seem quite good), but about the corporate culture at Sig. It's like the EoTech recall - a design defect is easily forgivable, but deliberately concealing it is not. Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk |
August 9, 2017, 12:17 PM | #145 | |
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Nothing is 100 percent. (Including the preceding statement.) |
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August 9, 2017, 12:19 PM | #146 | |
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August 9, 2017, 12:53 PM | #147 | |
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Actually I've never been in an accident where the airbag would have deployed (the accident I was in impacted the wheel entirely). I don't consider a failing in that area to be a pass for the P320 drop safety not working, however. I believe, though frankly I'm not going to personally test, that there are other striker fired pistols on the market that would pass this test. If true then to me SIG owes it to its customers to deliver a product on par with the competition in this area. My point with the previous comment was we can train people to try to not drop pistols, but drops will still happen (for that matter reaching for or attempting to grab a falling pistol has been seen in a number of stories to have terrible consequences). In that case having drop safeties is important. I'm fully aware that there is no completely drop safe pistol, but I do believe that this design can be improved, and according to SIG that is true given the redesigned parts in the M17. Being safe in your firearm handling and having good safety designs doesn't have to be mutually exclusive situation. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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August 9, 2017, 10:54 PM | #148 |
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From TTAG: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...ils-on-monday/
"SIG claims that recent feedback from government agencies evaluating the P320 inspired the enhanced trigger design. The changes were intended to improve trigger feel during the pull and reset. The result just happens to fix the drop safety issue, too. According to SIG, they intended to incorporate the changes in all P320 models — at a date the company didn’t specify." I call shenanigans on SIG. I do not believe they were in the process of improving the trigger and then surprisingly this turned out to fix a problem that we know occurred as early as January 5, 2017. I also hate feeling like I'm being lied to by someone I am doing business with. Even worse is the "I'm being lied to and in an obseqious fashion that indicates this person thinks I'm exceedingly gullible." |
August 9, 2017, 11:20 PM | #149 |
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The sheer logistics of this "voluntary upgrade" will be nuts. Absolutely nuts. 500,000 pistols in the wild currently. For that matter, since it's voluntary I wonder if SIG will charge shipping to the factory? If they do, imagine the pissed off customers, so I can't imagine they'd have the gall to do that. In that case the cost of shipping both ways, the cost of time and labor for the repair as well as the parts, and all of this for tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of pistols.
As for shenanigans, I called that back on post 113 https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...&postcount=113.
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Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness |
August 9, 2017, 11:49 PM | #150 |
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It's cheaper then a lawsuit.
There will be a glut of guns at first but then it will trickle in to a manageable pace. Some will probably never be fixed, Probably a ton of owners who have no idea this problem even exists. I'd assume they'd pay shipping.. or at least they should, I'd be pissed if they didn't. If the parts are drop in they might have the option of sending them out for self install.. I'd go that route for those comfortable. |
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