.54 Pistol Cartridges

Model12Win · December 19, 2015, 12:57 PM

Hi all! As some of you may know, I'm the proud owner of a new Harpers Ferry percussion conversion horse pistol, which is a .54 caliber smoothbore gun:

I just love this gun. It's so fun to shoot, and amazingly accurate for what it is.

Being that this is a military style pistol that could have been used in the Mexican American War and the early part of the U.S. Civil War in the south, I am wanting to make some authentic paper cartridges for the gun. This will also speed up reloading at the range.

While I've been able to find articles and videos on how to make various paper cartridges, I have had no luck in finding any information on making .54 caliber pistol cartridges. They certainly did exist during the day, here are some well preserved original examples:

http://www.campsiteartifacts.com/54pistolcartridge.html

http://www.horsesoldier.com/products...un-tools/14602

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/10870466

It looks to me like these were very similar to a .69 caliber musket cartridge, and would have had the tail bitten off, powder poured down the barrel, and rest of the paper and ball inserted together, the paper forming the patching.

For constructing these, I am unsure of what materials or what process I should use. Specifically, I am not sure of what the dimensions for the paper cutout should be to form the round. I am also not sure what type of paper is best and historically accurate, same for the string that hold the ball in place.

If anyone out there could help me in creating authentic paper cartridges for this .54 caliber horse pistol, that would be just great! I plan to shoot these for accuracy as well, to see how they do vs. the patched round balls I'm currently using in my gun.

Thanks so much everyone!!

g.willikers · December 19, 2015, 01:30 PM

There's a recent conversation on this very subject.
A search on this forum should find it.
Or just do a general web search on the subject and find plenty of good info.
As for the paper to use, tobacco shop cigarette paper works well.
Surprisingly, so do tea bags - minus the tea, of course.

Model12Win · December 19, 2015, 01:42 PM

I should state that I am not wanting to make combustible paper cartridges like one would use in a revolver, but the authentic musket-style paper cartridges that are historically accurate to these .54 smoothbore pistols.

**4V50 Gary** · December 19, 2015, 02:31 PM

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=144094

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9040384

Model12Win · December 19, 2015, 02:47 PM

Thank you, but that isn't the style I'm going for. I would prefer to make authentic cartridges, ones that are like this:

Those links were for modern cigarette paper revolver cartridges.

Model12Win · December 19, 2015, 08:13 PM

Okay, well since nobody knows how to do this or are keeping quiet, I decided to more or less wing it.

This video inspired me, and I used it for reference in the construction of some paper cartridges for my horse pistol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8ogJlaLi3k

The guy in the video is making cartridges for a .69 caliber musket, but the overall construction and appearance of the finished round matches the .54 pistol cartridges mentioned in my OP very nicely, so I went with this method for making them.

Earlier today I went to Wal-Mart to gather supplies. I found some 24-pound fancy paper, which seemed to be of the right appearance and felt sturdy. I also got some string and some yarn. Needing a dowel rod to use as a tool for loading cartridges, I actually stumbled upon some old fashioned clothespins in the arts and crafts section, with a bulbous end and one flat end. They looked to be almost the exact same size for my .54 caliber cartridges, and when I got home, they measured in at .536"! I couldn't have made a better loading tool even if I tried!

Using the instructions in the above video, I tweaked the dimensions of the paper cutouts to match my caliber. I also used a piece of yarn tied on my oven's handle as a choking string to shape the neck and head of the cartridge. After screwing up the first cartridge a bit, I managed to made a nice looking paper cartridge!:

After getting the hang of it, I was able to produce several more:

They look good, don't they?

So, after making another half dozen... only THEN did I decide to see if they would fit in my gun's bore... and no, they didn't!

Needless to say, I was saddened by this. I certainly should have tried loading the first cartridge I made!

The good thing though, is that I now know how to do it. What I'm going to have to do now is find out what size ball I am going to have to use in order to be able to stuff these down my bore just using my pistol's ramrod. They shouldn't be very hard to shove down, but should hold snug enough to not fall out.

So, back to the drawing board. After carefully measuring each cartridge several times, and averaging all measurements, I found the average diameter of the cartridge around the ball is .560", clearly too large to fit in the .535" bore of my gun.

What I'm going to need to do is either go to a .509" ball, or find a different thickness of paper and experiment with a .520" ball diameter. There is some packing paper at Wal-Mart, Duck brand, that I seem to recall someone mentioning as being good for paper cartridges. It seems pretty thin to me, but if it allows me to use a large heavier .520" ball and holds up decently well during construction and transportation in cartridge form, I think I'll go with that.

So while I have some tweaking and fiddling to do, at least I know how to load these cartridges now! Even though they won't fit my gun, I still feel a sense of accomplishment. I just can't wait until I find the right formula so I can carry a box of cartridges to the range and let loose!

I'll keep everyone posted. I also have other range plans for this awesome .54 horse pistol planned in the near future. If anybody out there has any recommendations on what size ball/paper I should be using, I'm all ears. And and all comments or advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks guys!!!

DD4lifeusmc · December 19, 2015, 08:28 PM

This link while not specific to your application will help.
http://www.newyorkcivilwar.com/qm/cartridgetubes.pdf

paper over the last 175 years has changed, the exact paper likely isn't available.
The closest you will get is newsprint paper and perhaps brown wrapping paper.

Many papers of the day were linen based. some cartridges were made from linen itself. Some were an inner paper cartridge with powder and outer linen.

in some the paper was thrown away, in some stuffed down on the powder and the linen formed the patch.
A basic trapezoid can be found here
http://www.wikihow.com/Roll-Paper-Ca...8Reenacting%29

Adjust sizing as needed

Model12Win · December 19, 2015, 09:40 PM

Thanks DD.

I really think I've got the building part down. It's surprisingly quick and easy. Just need to tweak my load, I'll def try the Duck brand packing paper from the 'ol Wal-Mart. I'm also in the process of ordering two smaller ball sizes to see how they work.

hartcreek · December 20, 2015, 06:23 AM

I am afraid that you are going to get yourself into trouble. The problem with this style of pistol is not loading fast but loading slow enough that you are not trying to reload while the fired charge is still smouldering. Even using a powder flask it is very possible to load to fast.

Model12Win · December 20, 2015, 09:16 AM

What? Ever seen reenactors firing muskets quickly? They don't seem to have a problem with it.

mehavey · December 20, 2015, 09:31 AM

Why do you guys think folks carried multiple pistols
stuck in every conceivable clothing location?

DD4lifeusmc · December 20, 2015, 10:18 AM

if you will also notice the true old timers would blow into the barrel and the nipple.
this would do two things.
one it would help eliminate any burning embers.
Two supposedly help keep fouling soft.
I would say it does help with both as have been doing it that way since the last century and the really old man that taught me then had been doing it that way with an original rifles since the beginning of the same century.

But then again there is no real need to fire these in rapid fire if you are just plinking, other than to just improve your skills at doing so.

Your ball should be about .005 to .010 smaller than the bore to allow the thickness of the patch

maillemaker · December 21, 2015, 11:36 AM

There is an excellent series of books by Dean S. Thomas called "Round Ball to Rimfire" that documents the evolution of cartridges prior to metallic cartridges.

Chapter 7 of Volume 1 covers round shot, including ammunition for the M1842 pistol:

It also quotes from the 1849 Ordanance Manual.

Page 109 contains some pictures of .54 caliber round ball cartridges for pistol:

Pages 118-123 contain a reproduction of an 1832 manual on cartridge manufacture, including dimensions of the papers for long arms and pistols.

But it looks like you are already onto the technique.

I have also been experimenting with period ammunition. Here is a thread on my experiments with the British Enfield style of cartridge:

http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/showthr...range-tomorrow

I have created a web page with resources on paper cartridge manufacture here:

http://4thla.weebly.com/paper-cartid...formation.html

But this only covers US Expanding Ball and British Enfield cartridges for now.

Steve

maillemaker · December 21, 2015, 11:56 AM

I believe paper back in the day was generally cotton based and quite different from the wood-based paper we use today. Though you can buy cotton rag paper today if you want to use it.

For the string, I use the S352 18/3 3-ply linen thread from here:

http://www.johnnealbooks.com/prod_detail_list/72

I believe the fear of burning embers from paper wadding to be overblown. While one should always be cognizant of the risk of cook-offs during loading, I believe that anything put down on top of the powder is most probably going to be blown right out of the barrel.

That said, when dumping powder down the barrel in particular the loader should minimize having any part of the body over the barrel. I have seen (well, heard, as I'm looking downrange after my own shooting) cookoffs about 3 times in the 4 years I've been shooting N-SSA competition, and they don't allow any paper down the barrel. So it does happen.

Steve

mehavey · December 21, 2015, 12:16 PM

I've actually seen N-SSA cook-offs on (rare-rare-Rare-RARE) occasion.
and then always when pouring the powder quickly down the barrel within seconds after firing.
A "Whhooooooosh...." and no big deal (except for bragging rights) as the barrel is held at straight-arm's length angle away in front of the shooter.

Model12Win · December 21, 2015, 12:32 PM

Thanks so much guys! Mailemaker, what a great resource!! I'm going to have to track down those documents to find out precisely what dimensions I should be using to make these cartridges. I do know that the .530" balls I was using are too large, so I ordered some .520" and .509" balls from Track of the Wolf. I also would like to try some different papers. I was using this 24 pound paper from Wal-Mart:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Southworth...heets/20659569

It looked the part, and felt nice and sturdy, but I think now it might be too thick. It seems to me like I should be able to use the .520" ball since my bore is .535", it seems like using .509" balls would be too small for this gun... also, the .520" balls are cheaper than the .509"s... counter intuitive, but Track sells the .520" balls for about $14 per 100 but the slightly smaller .509"s at $19 per 100. Strange!

If anyone could give me some recommendations on paper, or where to buy the right paper, I'd appreciate that. I don't necessarily need the most authentic paper, just something that will look the part, be strong enough, and will allow the use of .520" balls. I think I'll buy that string Mailemaker. Is it authentic, and strong enough? The string I was using was again from Wal-Mart and I had to be careful not to pull too hard on it because it broke several times.

Thanks guys!

Model12Win · December 21, 2015, 12:40 PM

I just looked up the Dean S. Thomas Round ball to Rimfire, and it's around $40 for the book! Anyone willing to post or PM me the section dealing with .54 caliber pistol cartridges?

maillemaker · December 21, 2015, 01:18 PM

From Round Ball to Rimfire volume 1.

For cartridges I find the thin masking paper available by the roll at Lowe's and Home Depot to work very well. It is about .002" thick and brown. They also sell much larger rolls of heavier masking paper - I use that for the stiffer "rocket paper" used to make the inner powder cylinder on US 1855 Expanding Ball cartridges. That will be too heavy for the outer wrapper and the cartridges you are making.

You may check into inter-library loan to get books. There is often a nominal fee (my library charges $3 for most books). That is how I got the Round Ball to Rimfire books, though I bought volume 4.

Steve

maillemaker · December 21, 2015, 01:30 PM

Here is the period description of the manufacture of small arms ammunition, from Round Ball to Rimfire Volume 1, from an 1832 source:

http://imgur.com/a/zd53f

Steve

Model12Win · December 21, 2015, 10:34 PM

Thank you so much!!

Does anyone know how much powder I should be using? The cartridges I made had 45 grains of 2FG black powder. They are about as long as the shortest pistol cartridge in Mailemaker's picture. Seems like the other two would have to have at least 60 grains or more of powder...

James K · December 21, 2015, 11:00 PM

Unlike loading the .58 rifle musket, where the cartridge was torn open, the powder and bullet loaded into the barrel and the paper discarded, the older smooth bore muskets and pistols were loaded by tearing open the cartridge at the tab, dumping the powder down the barrel, then loading the front part of the cartridge, with the bullet still wrapped in paper, down the barrel. The ball and paper should allow that, as the paper was intended to reduce the "windage" or space between the barrel wall and the projectile.

Revolvers were loaded with combustible cartridges, but muskets and rifles were not. (They could be, but "back in the day" combustible cartridges were too fragile to carry around; even standard paper cartridges became broken, wet, or otherwise useless after a few weeks in a cartridge box, which is why officers ordered their men to obtain fresh cartridges from the ammo wagon before a battle, if possible.)

Jim

maillemaker · December 21, 2015, 11:07 PM

I think the above link gives the service charges, but for accuracy you'll have to do a load workup.

Steve

Model12Win · December 22, 2015, 12:13 AM

Thanks so much guys! So I thought I should ask, that when loading, after biting the cartridge open and dumping the powder down the barrel, do I load the rest of the cartridge down ball-first, or "powder chamber" first?

Also, if I were to use the proper cotton or linen paper, what kind would be most historically accurate? The 24 lb stuff I was using seems a tad on the thick side... certainly too thick for .530 balls, no doubt. I assume the .520 ball will be better, but I'll bet my paper/thread will still be too thick... so I guess now I'm wondering what would be the correct thickness/weight of cotton paper to use? Will I need to go to the smaller .509" balls? Would .509" balls be considered too small for a .535" bore?

I just have so many questions... sorry! I want to thank you all so much for helping me!!

maillemaker · December 22, 2015, 12:33 PM

The 1839 Pyrotechnics manual above says:

Musket Cartridges
Charge of powder for single ball is 5/3 drachmes, or 48 charges to a pound.
Charge of powder for ball and Buck shot is 60 charges to a pound.
Charge of powder for twelve Buck shot is 60 charges to a pound.
Charge of powder for Rifle balls is 105 charges to a pound.
Charge of powder for Pistol is 130 charges to a pound.

1/48th of a pound equals 147 grains.
1/60th of a pound equals 119 grains.
1/105th of a pound equals 66 grains.
1/130th of a pound equals 54 grains.

But they note that the actual charge must vary depending on the strength of the powder.

As to paper, it simply says that the paper must be "thin, strong, and smooth." Later ordnance manuals give instructions for how to test the strength of the paper.

Steve

Model12Win · December 22, 2015, 12:59 PM

Thanks, seems like a stout charge for a pistol... I am assuming since that info is from an 1832 document, that said charge accounts for the priming needed on a flintlock pistol.

I am going to 'speriment with papers and balls. I'd like to use the .520" ball, but I'm not sure I'll find a paper thin enough yet strong enough for them. I just bought some of that 18/3 linen string you recommended. Thanks for the tip!

December 19, 2015, 12:57 PM	#1
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	.54 Pistol Cartridges Hi all! As some of you may know, I'm the proud owner of a new Harpers Ferry percussion conversion horse pistol, which is a .54 caliber smoothbore gun: I just love this gun. It's so fun to shoot, and amazingly accurate for what it is. Being that this is a military style pistol that could have been used in the Mexican American War and the early part of the U.S. Civil War in the south, I am wanting to make some authentic paper cartridges for the gun. This will also speed up reloading at the range. While I've been able to find articles and videos on how to make various paper cartridges, I have had no luck in finding any information on making .54 caliber pistol cartridges. They certainly did exist during the day, here are some well preserved original examples: http://www.campsiteartifacts.com/54pistolcartridge.html http://www.horsesoldier.com/products...un-tools/14602 http://www.gunauction.com/buy/10870466 It looks to me like these were very similar to a .69 caliber musket cartridge, and would have had the tail bitten off, powder poured down the barrel, and rest of the paper and ball inserted together, the paper forming the patching. For constructing these, I am unsure of what materials or what process I should use. Specifically, I am not sure of what the dimensions for the paper cutout should be to form the round. I am also not sure what type of paper is best and historically accurate, same for the string that hold the ball in place. If anyone out there could help me in creating authentic paper cartridges for this .54 caliber horse pistol, that would be just great! I plan to shoot these for accuracy as well, to see how they do vs. the patched round balls I'm currently using in my gun. Thanks so much everyone!!

December 19, 2015, 01:30 PM	#2
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	There's a recent conversation on this very subject. A search on this forum should find it. Or just do a general web search on the subject and find plenty of good info. As for the paper to use, tobacco shop cigarette paper works well. Surprisingly, so do tea bags - minus the tea, of course. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

December 19, 2015, 02:31 PM	#4
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,840	http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=144094 http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9040384 __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

December 22, 2015, 12:13 AM	#23
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Thanks so much guys! So I thought I should ask, that when loading, after biting the cartridge open and dumping the powder down the barrel, do I load the rest of the cartridge down ball-first, or "powder chamber" first? Also, if I were to use the proper cotton or linen paper, what kind would be most historically accurate? The 24 lb stuff I was using seems a tad on the thick side... certainly too thick for .530 balls, no doubt. I assume the .520 ball will be better, but I'll bet my paper/thread will still be too thick... so I guess now I'm wondering what would be the correct thickness/weight of cotton paper to use? Will I need to go to the smaller .509" balls? Would .509" balls be considered too small for a .535" bore? I just have so many questions... sorry! I want to thank you all so much for helping me!! Last edited by Model12Win; December 22, 2015 at 12:55 AM.

December 19, 2015, 01:42 PM	#3
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	I should state that I am not wanting to make combustible paper cartridges like one would use in a revolver, but the authentic musket-style paper cartridges that are historically accurate to these .54 smoothbore pistols.

December 19, 2015, 02:47 PM	#5
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Thank you, but that isn't the style I'm going for. I would prefer to make authentic cartridges, ones that are like this: Those links were for modern cigarette paper revolver cartridges.

December 19, 2015, 08:13 PM	#6
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Okay, well since nobody knows how to do this or are keeping quiet, I decided to more or less wing it. This video inspired me, and I used it for reference in the construction of some paper cartridges for my horse pistol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8ogJlaLi3k The guy in the video is making cartridges for a .69 caliber musket, but the overall construction and appearance of the finished round matches the .54 pistol cartridges mentioned in my OP very nicely, so I went with this method for making them. Earlier today I went to Wal-Mart to gather supplies. I found some 24-pound fancy paper, which seemed to be of the right appearance and felt sturdy. I also got some string and some yarn. Needing a dowel rod to use as a tool for loading cartridges, I actually stumbled upon some old fashioned clothespins in the arts and crafts section, with a bulbous end and one flat end. They looked to be almost the exact same size for my .54 caliber cartridges, and when I got home, they measured in at .536"! I couldn't have made a better loading tool even if I tried! Using the instructions in the above video, I tweaked the dimensions of the paper cutouts to match my caliber. I also used a piece of yarn tied on my oven's handle as a choking string to shape the neck and head of the cartridge. After screwing up the first cartridge a bit, I managed to made a nice looking paper cartridge!: After getting the hang of it, I was able to produce several more: They look good, don't they? So, after making another half dozen... only THEN did I decide to see if they would fit in my gun's bore... and no, they didn't! Needless to say, I was saddened by this. I certainly should have tried loading the first cartridge I made! The good thing though, is that I now know how to do it. What I'm going to have to do now is find out what size ball I am going to have to use in order to be able to stuff these down my bore just using my pistol's ramrod. They shouldn't be very hard to shove down, but should hold snug enough to not fall out. So, back to the drawing board. After carefully measuring each cartridge several times, and averaging all measurements, I found the average diameter of the cartridge around the ball is .560", clearly too large to fit in the .535" bore of my gun. What I'm going to need to do is either go to a .509" ball, or find a different thickness of paper and experiment with a .520" ball diameter. There is some packing paper at Wal-Mart, Duck brand, that I seem to recall someone mentioning as being good for paper cartridges. It seems pretty thin to me, but if it allows me to use a large heavier .520" ball and holds up decently well during construction and transportation in cartridge form, I think I'll go with that. So while I have some tweaking and fiddling to do, at least I know how to load these cartridges now! Even though they won't fit my gun, I still feel a sense of accomplishment. I just can't wait until I find the right formula so I can carry a box of cartridges to the range and let loose! I'll keep everyone posted. I also have other range plans for this awesome .54 horse pistol planned in the near future. If anybody out there has any recommendations on what size ball/paper I should be using, I'm all ears. And and all comments or advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks guys!!!

December 19, 2015, 08:28 PM	#7
DD4lifeusmc Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2012 Location: Wyoming Posts: 351	This link while not specific to your application will help. http://www.newyorkcivilwar.com/qm/cartridgetubes.pdf paper over the last 175 years has changed, the exact paper likely isn't available. The closest you will get is newsprint paper and perhaps brown wrapping paper. Many papers of the day were linen based. some cartridges were made from linen itself. Some were an inner paper cartridge with powder and outer linen. in some the paper was thrown away, in some stuffed down on the powder and the linen formed the patch. A basic trapezoid can be found here http://www.wikihow.com/Roll-Paper-Ca...8Reenacting%29 Adjust sizing as needed

December 19, 2015, 09:40 PM	#8
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Thanks DD. I really think I've got the building part down. It's surprisingly quick and easy. Just need to tweak my load, I'll def try the Duck brand packing paper from the 'ol Wal-Mart. I'm also in the process of ordering two smaller ball sizes to see how they work.

December 20, 2015, 06:23 AM	#9
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	I am afraid that you are going to get yourself into trouble. The problem with this style of pistol is not loading fast but loading slow enough that you are not trying to reload while the fired charge is still smouldering. Even using a powder flask it is very possible to load to fast.

December 20, 2015, 09:16 AM	#10
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	What? Ever seen reenactors firing muskets quickly? They don't seem to have a problem with it.

December 20, 2015, 09:31 AM	#11
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	Why do you guys think folks carried multiple pistols stuck in every conceivable clothing location?

December 20, 2015, 10:18 AM	#12
DD4lifeusmc Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2012 Location: Wyoming Posts: 351	if you will also notice the true old timers would blow into the barrel and the nipple. this would do two things. one it would help eliminate any burning embers. Two supposedly help keep fouling soft. I would say it does help with both as have been doing it that way since the last century and the really old man that taught me then had been doing it that way with an original rifles since the beginning of the same century. But then again there is no real need to fire these in rapid fire if you are just plinking, other than to just improve your skills at doing so. Your ball should be about .005 to .010 smaller than the bore to allow the thickness of the patch

December 21, 2015, 11:36 AM	#13
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	There is an excellent series of books by Dean S. Thomas called "Round Ball to Rimfire" that documents the evolution of cartridges prior to metallic cartridges. Chapter 7 of Volume 1 covers round shot, including ammunition for the M1842 pistol: It also quotes from the 1849 Ordanance Manual. Page 109 contains some pictures of .54 caliber round ball cartridges for pistol: Pages 118-123 contain a reproduction of an 1832 manual on cartridge manufacture, including dimensions of the papers for long arms and pistols. But it looks like you are already onto the technique. I have also been experimenting with period ammunition. Here is a thread on my experiments with the British Enfield style of cartridge: http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/showthr...range-tomorrow I have created a web page with resources on paper cartridge manufacture here: http://4thla.weebly.com/paper-cartid...formation.html But this only covers US Expanding Ball and British Enfield cartridges for now. Steve

December 21, 2015, 11:56 AM	#14
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	I believe paper back in the day was generally cotton based and quite different from the wood-based paper we use today. Though you can buy cotton rag paper today if you want to use it. For the string, I use the S352 18/3 3-ply linen thread from here: http://www.johnnealbooks.com/prod_detail_list/72 I believe the fear of burning embers from paper wadding to be overblown. While one should always be cognizant of the risk of cook-offs during loading, I believe that anything put down on top of the powder is most probably going to be blown right out of the barrel. That said, when dumping powder down the barrel in particular the loader should minimize having any part of the body over the barrel. I have seen (well, heard, as I'm looking downrange after my own shooting) cookoffs about 3 times in the 4 years I've been shooting N-SSA competition, and they don't allow any paper down the barrel. So it does happen. Steve

December 21, 2015, 12:16 PM	#15
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	I've actually seen N-SSA cook-offs on (rare-rare-Rare-RARE) occasion. and then always when pouring the powder quickly down the barrel within seconds after firing. A "Whhooooooosh...." and no big deal (except for bragging rights) as the barrel is held at straight-arm's length angle away in front of the shooter.

December 21, 2015, 12:32 PM	#16
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Thanks so much guys! Mailemaker, what a great resource!! I'm going to have to track down those documents to find out precisely what dimensions I should be using to make these cartridges. I do know that the .530" balls I was using are too large, so I ordered some .520" and .509" balls from Track of the Wolf. I also would like to try some different papers. I was using this 24 pound paper from Wal-Mart: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Southworth...heets/20659569 It looked the part, and felt nice and sturdy, but I think now it might be too thick. It seems to me like I should be able to use the .520" ball since my bore is .535", it seems like using .509" balls would be too small for this gun... also, the .520" balls are cheaper than the .509"s... counter intuitive, but Track sells the .520" balls for about $14 per 100 but the slightly smaller .509"s at $19 per 100. Strange! If anyone could give me some recommendations on paper, or where to buy the right paper, I'd appreciate that. I don't necessarily need the most authentic paper, just something that will look the part, be strong enough, and will allow the use of .520" balls. I think I'll buy that string Mailemaker. Is it authentic, and strong enough? The string I was using was again from Wal-Mart and I had to be careful not to pull too hard on it because it broke several times. Thanks guys!

December 21, 2015, 12:40 PM	#17
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	I just looked up the Dean S. Thomas Round ball to Rimfire, and it's around $40 for the book! Anyone willing to post or PM me the section dealing with .54 caliber pistol cartridges?

December 21, 2015, 01:18 PM	#18
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	From Round Ball to Rimfire volume 1. For cartridges I find the thin masking paper available by the roll at Lowe's and Home Depot to work very well. It is about .002" thick and brown. They also sell much larger rolls of heavier masking paper - I use that for the stiffer "rocket paper" used to make the inner powder cylinder on US 1855 Expanding Ball cartridges. That will be too heavy for the outer wrapper and the cartridges you are making. You may check into inter-library loan to get books. There is often a nominal fee (my library charges $3 for most books). That is how I got the Round Ball to Rimfire books, though I bought volume 4. Steve

December 21, 2015, 01:30 PM	#19
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	Here is the period description of the manufacture of small arms ammunition, from Round Ball to Rimfire Volume 1, from an 1832 source: http://imgur.com/a/zd53f Steve

December 21, 2015, 10:34 PM	#20
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Thank you so much!! Does anyone know how much powder I should be using? The cartridges I made had 45 grains of 2FG black powder. They are about as long as the shortest pistol cartridge in Mailemaker's picture. Seems like the other two would have to have at least 60 grains or more of powder...

December 21, 2015, 11:00 PM	#21
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Unlike loading the .58 rifle musket, where the cartridge was torn open, the powder and bullet loaded into the barrel and the paper discarded, the older smooth bore muskets and pistols were loaded by tearing open the cartridge at the tab, dumping the powder down the barrel, then loading the front part of the cartridge, with the bullet still wrapped in paper, down the barrel. The ball and paper should allow that, as the paper was intended to reduce the "windage" or space between the barrel wall and the projectile. Revolvers were loaded with combustible cartridges, but muskets and rifles were not. (They could be, but "back in the day" combustible cartridges were too fragile to carry around; even standard paper cartridges became broken, wet, or otherwise useless after a few weeks in a cartridge box, which is why officers ordered their men to obtain fresh cartridges from the ammo wagon before a battle, if possible.) Jim

December 21, 2015, 11:07 PM	#22
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	I think the above link gives the service charges, but for accuracy you'll have to do a load workup. Steve

December 22, 2015, 12:33 PM	#24
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	The 1839 Pyrotechnics manual above says: Musket Cartridges Charge of powder for single ball is 5/3 drachmes, or 48 charges to a pound. Charge of powder for ball and Buck shot is 60 charges to a pound. Charge of powder for twelve Buck shot is 60 charges to a pound. Charge of powder for Rifle balls is 105 charges to a pound. Charge of powder for Pistol is 130 charges to a pound. 1/48th of a pound equals 147 grains. 1/60th of a pound equals 119 grains. 1/105th of a pound equals 66 grains. 1/130th of a pound equals 54 grains. But they note that the actual charge must vary depending on the strength of the powder. As to paper, it simply says that the paper must be "thin, strong, and smooth." Later ordnance manuals give instructions for how to test the strength of the paper. Steve

December 22, 2015, 12:59 PM	#25
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Thanks, seems like a stout charge for a pistol... I am assuming since that info is from an 1832 document, that said charge accounts for the priming needed on a flintlock pistol. I am going to 'speriment with papers and balls. I'd like to use the .520" ball, but I'm not sure I'll find a paper thin enough yet strong enough for them. I just bought some of that 18/3 linen string you recommended. Thanks for the tip!