January 15, 2019, 02:30 PM | #76 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
|
Quote:
I called RCBS, they said they would send me another one and I got concerned and ask them; "ANOTHER WHAT?" because I was not going to accept a new press. I wanted the (my) same press. Immediately they said they would sent me another ram with a repair kit, and that is what they did. I did not care if the ram was new and or used. Again, this press was used with other presses like Herter presses etc. I did replace the handle on one of my Herter presses, my wife hit the handle with her 4 door 68 Bonneville with the 455 cubic inch engine. I tried to lecture her but it was not her that left the handle down. F. Guffey |
|
January 15, 2019, 02:50 PM | #77 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 7,014
|
Quote:
The shoulder measuring makes it quicker and a bit easier.
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not |
|
January 15, 2019, 06:05 PM | #78 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
|
Quote:
F. Guffey |
|
January 15, 2019, 11:48 PM | #79 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 3,863
|
Why would you think that . If your using the closed bolt method in finding the distance from Closed Bolt to Shoulder . Measuring that distance isn't rocket science . From there you can size to that magic .002 of clearance . AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN.
|
January 16, 2019, 12:19 AM | #80 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,872
|
Here's more to confuse or help clarify depending on what side of the fence you sit
https://precisionshooter.info/cam-ov...loading-press/
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . |
January 16, 2019, 02:58 AM | #81 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,872
|
Just sent this to Hornady
Quote:
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . |
|
January 16, 2019, 03:20 AM | #82 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 31, 2013
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1,705
|
Seems sort of strange to me that folks like RCBS tell you to cam over the press, but the process is picked apart from every angle by so many. I've been using the cam over method for over 50 yrs...and you know what ? I've never worn out a press !
|
January 16, 2019, 08:00 AM | #83 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 3,863
|
Metal
The artical from Precision Shooter covered all . It comes down to removing the slop , then again it comes down to how far down do you screw the die to the point of stress . I guess some will adding to much and some not enough , not enough and seeing light between shellholder and die with the case sized in the die will show not enough slop is removed . It's when to much is set up . I use the Competition Shellholders and set up to remove slop not over tighten , it's by feel and I guess it comes down to , hard to some is not enough , alittle more is better. Like you listed your measurements will let you know. Thanks Again , made good reading but the battle I can see will still go on . Chris |
January 16, 2019, 11:17 AM | #84 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
|
Quote:
One term absent from the reloaders vocabulary is "the case's ability to resist sizing". If there is a gap the press, die and shell holder with lube failed to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing. I could ask; SO! "What is a reloader to do when the case has too much resistance to sizing?" there is a cute little saying by reloaders claiming they anneal their cases after sizing 'every time!' And then they claim they 'do it' because of accuracy and precision. And then there is the one that claims 'we' should do like bench resters, he claims bench resters full length size their cases after every firing. And then he claims bench resters have been doing it for decades. And then? He goes on to say they insist on loose necks; straight away, I want all the bullet hold I can get. If only there was a method and or technique to measure bullet hold in pounds: Wait! There is and has always been a method for measuring bullet hold; problem, bullet hold can only be measured in pounds but now the bullet seater uses a gage that measure in pounds as in hydraulic pressure, the old way used and still does use springs. And there is no conversion from pounds to tensions. again I have tension gages with no method to convert to tensions. To increase the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing the die must be lowered or the case must be raised. To raise the case to increases the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing I have shimmed the case up by placing shims between the deck of the shell holder and the bottom of the die. And then there is a benefit to the shim between the deck of the shell holder and case head a reloader that believes he needs a small base die can use the shim when trying to determine if a small base die is necessary and there is nire. Reloaders have thought all problems are solved by grinding the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die. I have never found that to be true even though I am one of the few reloaders that own three grinders that are used to grind pilots, angles and gages to length. It is not necessary to grind the base of the die if the reloader understand the concept of shimming the case up and off the deck of the shell holder, When sizing cases for short chambers as in being shorter than minimum length the reloader can shorten the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head when using RCBS shell holders. For the 8th time a reloader can shorten the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head .010" with a shim. A reloader can increase the length of the case .010, by placing shims between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder. Again, I have one set of Redding Competition shell holders, I paid $5.00 for the set, 3 of the shell holders are off by .001" each, to accomplish the same task with feeler gage I can size a case to 20 different length from the shoulder of the case to the case head all of that without the expensive Redding shell holders or grinding the die and or shell holder. F. Guffey |
|
January 16, 2019, 11:41 AM | #85 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 3,863
|
Guff
Not everyone has the tools or the background to use them properly , remember all are not seasoned reloaders , using a feeled gage is a simple fix but takes time using the feeler gage on every reload . It's not like setting points on a distributor way back when , when life was simple . The explanation on cam over was pretty clear . Everyone not having problems with their reloads are pretty set in their ways . I do enjoy reading other methods . I must admit , sometimes you sure do light a fire under me , all is good though , makes life interesting . Be Well. Chris |
January 16, 2019, 11:47 AM | #86 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 4,232
|
seems to me a some people over complicate what is nothing more than a simple linear measurement. I bet Prof Young could teach his 6 year old grandson how to do it. Take a fired case, measure it with any comparitor. Then subtract .002 or .003, adjust the die down to get that measurement after sizing and you're done. No camming over or any other nonsense required
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek |
January 16, 2019, 12:54 PM | #87 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,872
|
Quote:
I still think people are getting hung up on the technical definition of cam over rather then what that process is intended to accomplish in a press that allows it . I'd be interested if any of you would be willing to email RCBS and ask about cam over in there presses . If they are designed to do so , if doing so shortens the life of the press and why did they design it that way ? I believe the answer to those questions should solve the debate . I get that some will still believe what they want regardless as to the facts . Those people just lose a little more credibility in my mind . We all have those in life whom we listen intently to and others we just wish they'd stop talking . The latter tend to be those unwilling to learn new things or except change .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; January 16, 2019 at 02:06 PM. |
|
January 16, 2019, 01:06 PM | #88 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
|
Quote:
Again; I have Piggy Back attachments for the Rock Chucker press, the Piggy back attachment is auto advance. The Piggy Back 11 attachments will not tolerate the ram changing directions. And then there is JIC as in 'just in case', I have a spare one way clutch. Why would RCBS build an attachment with a one way clutch? F. Guffey |
|
January 16, 2019, 01:22 PM | #89 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
|
Quote:
Before RCBS there was VISE GRIPS, the company in the mid '30s identified LEVER LOCK as a design. I started in the oil field at 14 when a crew same up with one crewman short out of 4. The one thing I never failed to do was wrap the handle of a tool with the chain they called a 'binder', One crew member had to quit when a binder unloaded on him. Leaver lock or cam over, he could not afford another metal plate in his head. F. Guffey |
|
January 16, 2019, 01:56 PM | #90 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 3,863
|
Good story Guff
Going back to cam over , cam over is how hard you lock down the die on the shellholder. It's not supposed to put stress on the press only remove ALL the play . By using the feeler gage to remove the wiggle room or to raise the deck height I can see how it will work . The main purpose in cam over is to remove play , some presses with alot of linkage may be harder to do so . Using my press the RockChucker Supreme what ever the difference is between just RockChucker I don't know . It's pretty simple for me to remove the play an accurately size to the same measurement. Even though you bust my balls every once an awile , my respect for you has risen knowing you worked in the oil fields at 14 . Nothing came easy I'm sure . Respectfully. Chris |
January 16, 2019, 03:41 PM | #91 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
|
Quote:
F. Guffey |
|
January 16, 2019, 10:08 PM | #92 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 28, 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 9,442
|
Quote:
__________________
If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language. Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting |
|
January 16, 2019, 11:35 PM | #93 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 1999
Location: NW Wi
Posts: 1,665
|
I still have the safety and operating instructions for my newest rock chucker. They are undated, but the press is at least 23 years old. It has no instructions on actual case sizing, and no mention of cam over.
In the introduction it does say "As the handle pressure increases, the leverage is compounded, building up maximum work pressure in the main ram as it travels the full length of the stroke" In the safety section it says "If any unusual resistance is encountered when moving the operating handle, STOP IMMEDIATELY and investigate the cause. To proceed against unusual resistance may damage the equipment and/or cause serious personal injury!" Also found the instructions for the only Hornady dies i ever bought. Under instructions for adjusting full length die it says, 1. Raise the press ram to it's highest positon without camming over" It goes on to say set the die on the top of the shell holder. |
January 17, 2019, 02:29 AM | #94 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,872
|
Quote:
EDIT : here is Hornady's instructions on adjusting the sizing die in there single stage press https://press.hornady.com/assets/pct...structions.pdf Quote:
Which would make sense really needing consistency with all the different cartridges being reloaded and all the different types of people using the product . It would be smart to build into the design something that takes the human element out of the equation.
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; January 17, 2019 at 02:59 AM. |
||
January 17, 2019, 08:24 AM | #95 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 6, 2014
Posts: 128
|
My LNL AP cams over about .0004. My Co-ax zero.
I just measured both with a dial gauge. For what that's worth. |
January 17, 2019, 10:14 AM | #96 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
|
Quote:
If the press is a bump/cam over press the die must be adjusted to the ram at the highest point of travel. OR: they are required to add the amount of cam over. Quote:
To obtain 'the magic .002" the die must be lowered .002" after contact/before cam over. If the reloader chooses to increase the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to rewsist sizing he will raise the ram then lower the die 1/4 turn. I could say think about it but lowering the die while the die is contacting the shell holder ciuld be difficult so I suggest the reloader lower the ram/shell holder to make adjusting the die effortless. Again: Think about it: In the old days my favorite dies had a hex head for adjusting the die with a boxed wrench. Quote:
Yes, my friend did not know his A2 had .017" cam over so he added 1/2 turn to the die when he adjusted the die. Meaning he lowered the die .034"and never knew the amount of cam over had to be added. Thirdly: knowing his press had .017" cam over he could have adjusted the die to the shell holder when the ram was half way between the 'two bumps', that would be the first bump when raising the ram and the second bump when the ram is lowered. I could say that would be automatic but I am not very successful when I suggest reloaders think about it. F. Guffey |
|||
January 17, 2019, 10:34 AM | #97 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
|
Quote:
If the press is a bump/cam over press the die must be adjusted to the ram at the highest point of travel. OR: they are required to add the amount of cam over. Quote:
To obtain 'the magic .002" the die must be lowered .002" after contact/before cam over. If the reloader chooses to increase the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to rewsist sizing he will raise the ram then lower the die 1/4 turn. I could say think about it but lowering the die while the die is contacting the shell holder ciuld be difficult so I suggest the reloader lower the ram/shell holder to make adjusting the die effortless. Again: Think about it: In the old days my favorite dies had a hex head for adjusting the die with a boxed wrench. Quote:
Yes, my friend did not know his A2 had .017" cam over so he added 1/2 turn to the die when he adjusted the die. Meaning he lowered the die .034"and never knew the amount of cam over had to be added. Thirdly: knowing his press had .017" cam over he could have adjusted the die to the shell holder when the ram was half way between the 'two bumps', that would be the first bump when raising the ram and the second bump when the ram is lowered. I could say that would be automatic but I am not very successful when I suggest reloaders think about it. F. Guffey |
|||
January 17, 2019, 12:09 PM | #98 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 1999
Location: NW Wi
Posts: 1,665
|
Don't stress your press, or this may happen. Includes a little discussion on grey/white iron.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...n-half.845286/ |
January 17, 2019, 01:38 PM | #99 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,872
|
Wow that's crazy , can't even think of how that could happen . Reminds me of a time when I was younger , just a we-lad and I broke my uncles 7 iron when hitting a golf ball at the range . He was made saying " how could you even do that ? you had to have slammed it into the ground " I told him it was just a regular swing but he refused to believe me . A couple days later we were all sitting around talking about the rattle snake that was by his car a week earlier and how he used one of his golf clubs to beat it to death . BING the light bulb went on and I gave him all kinds of crap for making me feel so bad about breaking his golf club now knowing he likely cracked it and I was the unlucky one to use it next .
Anyways , I'd bet there was something else going on with that press other then a little extra resistance on the down stroke way before it broke . Banged it with something , dropped it . Who knows what or when but unlikely it was just the cam over type of pressure alone that caused that failure .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . |
January 17, 2019, 03:35 PM | #100 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 4,232
|
Been working on machinery for over half a decade and yes anything can fail. They will break for no reason at all but they will break more often if they are regularly over stressed or abused.
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|